Pro and Con 179, Uploaded 9-18-98, PM

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FWD: Clarence H. Wagner, Jr., Jerusalem, September 18, 1998
Israel received its first rain early in the morning September 13th, in the northern region. Even so, fall (Autumn) is still not here. Temperatures remain high. (MED, September 13, 1998)
PRAYER FOCUS: Pray that this first rain is a forerunner of abundant rainfall during the upcoming winter months.

Note: Sept. 13, 2007 is Tishri 1, the time of the "former rain."

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Ken Visscher wrote:
Ma'am,,, I read your prophesy on your site about the rapture of the church by the Lord. Sorry to say, but what you prophesied fell to the ground. Ask of the Lord, He will show you there is NO SUCH THING,,, Ken Visscher One thing have I desired of the Lord, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord, and to enquire in His temple. For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion; in the secret of His tabernacle shall He hide me: He shall set me up upon a rock. Psalm 27:4,5

My reply

I am so sorry that you do not have the "blessed hope" of escaping the coming Tribulation. The scripture you quoted is referring to the second Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Verses 2 and 3 say, "When THE WICKED (False Prophet, 2 Thess. 2:8), even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh (Ezek. 38), they stumbled and fell. Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though WAR SHOULD RISE AGAINST ME, in this (the Pre-WRATH Rapture of verses 4 and 5) will I be confident."

I did not intend to capitalize WRATH. It just came out that way. I suppose to emphasize that it is not talking about the Pre-Trib Rapture, but the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place as Israel is attacked by the united nation's army under Gog.

Here are some scriptures that speak of our blessed hope of escaping the Tribulation and being caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Titus 2:12-15: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from ALL iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. LET NO MAN DESPISE THEE."

Luke 21:34-36: "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you UNAWARES. For as a snare (trap) shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

What are "all these things" that we can escape? Verse 22 says, "these be the days of vengeance." Verses 25 and 26 say, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear." Is this not the Tribulation, the time when the "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5)?

I Peter 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the HOPE that is in you with meekness and fear."

I John 3:2,3: "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this HOPE in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Rev. 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM the hour of temptation (pierasmos, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

I pray that the Lord will open your eyes to recognize that the "blessed hope" is the Pre-Trib Rapture before it is too late. In Jesus' name, Amen. Others will agree to pray this prayer with me.

Looking for the wicked one and the Tribulation is not a blessed hope in any form or fashion. Since the "blessed hope" is sooner than you think, please prepare yourself, just in case. You have nothing to lose by confessing all your sins and watching for his appearing. Please get ready while there is time.

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Valerie Skrzyniak wrote:
I want to thank you for your encouraging and loving e-mail of Aug. 7/98, and your prayers for my children and myself. I have copied your message and put in my bible, and whenever, I feel down and out I read it and it gives me great strength, peace, and understanding. I cried the first time I read it because it was written with such great love and understanding, and when you had said "JUST LET HIM HANDLE IT" and you did not mean to capitalize it, I knew that God would look after us after all. He has looked after us and I have the peace that passes all understanding and my children are both doing well too and are back in College. God Bless you Marilyn, I long to meet with you in heaven along with many others who really appreciate a real and genuine person who loves God with all her heart. Thank you to all others who have prayed for our family also, God Bless all of God's People out there! We are doing fine and healing each and every day with God's Help will we make it all the way! Even when your husband leaves you after 31 years of marriage, God is there to pick up the pieces, strengthen you send people to help you, and show you the righteous way in all things. We are LOOKING UP THIS WEEKEND FOR HIS COMING, I HOPE IT IS THIS SEPT 20th, COME LORD JESUS COME SOON, YOUR PEOPLE LONG FOR YOU SOON RETURN! IN HIS LOVE, "MARANATHA"

My reply

Thanks for letting us know. Praise the Lord. You remain on my prayer list. May he continue to bless you and keep you. He didn't promise that everything would be good, but that he would work everything together for good for those that love Him. See you in glory soon. Maranatha!

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I think I might have made a mistake in the last letter I sent you. What I meant to say was I think Jubilee's ending will be the reason for the rapture. Seeing how everything is reverted back to Israel again (the harvests). However I still believe that in order for Israel to be completely restored the Church of Jesus Christ must be taken out of the way. And seeing how Christ left 10 days before the birth of the church than we should leave 10 days before the rebirth of Israel.

My reply

Wow! That's a thought to ponder. If we left at Rosh HaShanah, Israel might take over as priests on the Day of Atonement ten days later. I had not thought of that correlation before.

Now what day is it that the Temple Mount Faithful want to lay the cornerstone of the Temple? October 7, the third day of Tabernacles. Do you suppose they will actually be allowed to do it this year?

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FWD: "The Temple Mount Faithful Movement plans to lay the cornerstone for the Third Temple this coming 7th October 1998 at 9:30 AM.

"This date was chosen because during the festival of Sukkoth King David brought the Ark of the Covenant from the city of David to the Temple Mount in a special exciting ceremony."

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Hi again and thanks for your continued faithfulness to the Lord's work in spite of the many challenges you have faced recently. You are ministering to a great number of us hungry believers!  As we look with anticipation to this weekend, I just thought I'd share something I came across today while reading the online edition of the 9/17/98 Jerusalem Post.  There was an article on Rosh Hashana 5759.   A lot of it did not make sense to me since I am not a Jew, but I found it interesting to see their perspective.  Here's some of what it said: "(September 16) - Rosh Hashana begins the most intense period of the Jewish calendar.  The day is one of fear and trembling. At least we hope it is. Because without that fear and trembling, there can be none of the joy of the New Year either.  Happy is the nation that knows the secret of the teru'a [shofar blasts]," proclaims the Midrash. The nation that knows how to tremble at the sound of the shofar and to submit itself to judgment is happy."
The author also made mention of Song of Songs 5:2: "I slumber, but my heart is awake".  That verse hit me as saying that perhaps even for those of us who may be physically sleeping (due to time zones) if we are ready and our heart is prepared (awake) (I John 1:9) we will go. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this.  Awake (thanks to your website) and hoping to see you soon (this weekend!)

My reply

Read a little more in Song of Solomon and it will come clear. Song 5:1-6 says, "I (Son of David, i.e., Christ) AM come (the Pre-Trib Rapture) into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey (the word of God), O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.

"I (the foolish virgins) sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved (Christ) that knocketh, saying, 0pen to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my UNDEFILED: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night.

"I (the foolish virgins) have put off my coat; how shall I put it on: I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them: My beloved put in his hand by the hole of the door (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8), and my bowels were moved for him. I rose up to open to my beloved ("Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps," Mt. 25:7); and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake (not enough oil of the Holy Spirit): I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer."

Mt. 25:10 says, "And while they went to buy (oil), the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage (they are the Bride): and the door was shut (as in Noah's Ark)."

Later, "came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Mt. 25:11). They are too lukewarm and must "repent" (Rev. 3:16,19). They must get the extra oil of the Holy Spirit (wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the Lamb, Rev. 7:14, i.e., confess their sins, I John 1:9) before he will recognize them and catch them up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

"And there shall in no wise enter into it (New Jerusalem) any thing that defleth" (Rev. 21:27). We might as well get right with God now and be ready when the Bridegroom comes the first time. All Israel was not ready the first time He came, but will be ready when he comes the second time. Likewise, all the church will not be ready the first time He comes in the air, but will be ready the second time. "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:11,12).

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I was reading in Pro and Con #178 where the person refered back to p/c 127 about a "word of knowledge" that was given for you, and his perception of what it could mean. I hadn't read p/c #127 , so I went to it , and as soon as I read it, My perception of it's meaning, which may or may not be right is as follows. In #3, "Go Again the 3rd time and wake from sleep and enter the rest prepared for you." To me , it's the 3rd date you've given. You suggested May 31, and then although the feast didn't change, because a different calender was used, you suggested maybe June 7. I hope I'm correct in these dates , I didn't look back. Anyway, the 3rd date is Sept. 20th. Maybe it means this is the one! Now just rest and watch. Also , for years I've been awakened by the Holy Spirit at 3am with an urgency to pray. I have often wondered why 3 o'clock? Today I was looking at the difference in time zones, and what time it would be my time if the rapture came at midnight, Israels time. Guess what? Yep! 3 o'clock. I wonder. I hope it is Sept. 20. I feel so ready. Your sister in Christ!

My reply

At least, these are the dates I thought most likely. I'm ready, have great faith, and pray with tears in my eyes, nothing wavering: Dear Lord, that I and all my expanded family, including spouses, mother-in-law, children, stepchildren, grandchildren and great grandchildren, "may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36). Amen (so be it).

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Thanks for the THANKS!

Sorry about Ed's back - BOTH of you have a PAIN IN THE BACK! That SHOULD BE FUNNY - but it HURTS to laugh! SORRY about that!

We'll ALL be LOOK UP this weekend! I really DON'T want to WAIT for another Pentecost - Lord give me PATIENCE - NOW! HA!

I look you up amongst the 200,000 (visiting my website) [Ed said you would LOOK like EVE? RIGHT?
Alos BOTH of you will have BEAUTIFUL BACKS? RIGHT?

I have ENJOYED all the P&C's [even the "pointy ones!"] You readers have WELL SAID that you handle these VERY WELL. It has been MORE than a God-send knowing you. An I look forward to some INTERESTING TIMES - in Class [101 TRUTH!]

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I know you must be terrible busy. Do you see Ezekiel 38 happening VERY SOON? In HIS PRECIOUS NAME


My reply

No. I think the united nation's army under Gog will attack Israel on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007. The Lord will fight for them that day when they blow the alarm on the trumpets. The great mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5) and will kill all but one sixth of the invading forces (Ezek. 38:19,20; 39:2).

When Jerusalem was no longer trodden down of the Gentiles in the Six-Day War of 1967, our redemption draweth nigh. The Pre-Trib Rapture is not far off now. Get ready. Israel's priests are now over 30 and ready to take over after the church is raptured.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question about the dead in Christ arising first while also coming back at the same time with Christ.
  I still need to study and think some more about it.  Apparently our bodies are in some way important to God even though they will be changed before we dwell in heaven with him.  I do know that God is able to put all the pieces back together even of those bodies which have been blown to bits etc.. but it is curious to me that since we will have a spiritual body as you quoted in 1 Cor. 15:35-44, that it will in some way be necessary to reconnect with our earthly body.  I don't quite understand why the spiritual body alone won't do since that's the ultimate outcome anyway.

  Of course, I don't believe any of that has anything to do with our salvation so the importance of it may not be great.  It's just my nature to wonder about things and attempt to understand what God has for us.

  Again, thanks for your generous sharing of your time and great knowledge of the scriptures.  You are truly a woman of God.

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FROM CAPS. After carefully studying the pro/con 177 re the person who , on 5-31-98, had a "word" THAT SAID "NOT YET; JUST ONE MORE", I began trying to discern what this could mean. For the readers who did not see this I will copy some of this below:

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6-1-98. Hello Sister in Yahshua...
We are still remaining Faithful to our New walk with Yahvah's son (Yahshua)!

Sunday Morning, while I was preparing our clothes for Pentecost services at Church; Our Heavenly Father spoke to my heart! He said, "Not YET; just one more! I instantly knew I was in his presence, and it temporarily stunned and frightened me! I forgot to ask Him one more what? But my soul rejoiced and tears welled up in my eyes instantly!

Maybe He was saying, one more soul to saved, one more day/week/month/year!...
"Not YET; just one more!" is very interesting. All I can think of is one more feast (i.e., the Feast of Trumpets) or one more Pentecost (i.e., in 5759/1999).

FROM CAPS... Last night when discussing this with my brother the following understanding semed to be evident. At first I thought it could only be "one more" Pentecost or one more Feast. The words "not yet" imply that things are close. The words "just one more" imply something that is the same as something that has just occurred--and that there is only "ONE" MORE to go. The question is what could this be. My brother all of a sudden mentioned to me right when we had about ended the discussion and I was leaving his house---" ONE MORE TRUMPET". Wow ! Could this be the answer? Immediately I remembered the fact that the Jews believe that on Pentecost the FIRST trumpet is blown--and then on Rosh Hashanah the LAST trumpet is blown. Does this not explain the phrase "Not yet(i.e. it is close)...just one More (trumpet)? Since the person who had this word is evidently a Jewish Believer maybe this fits.
Also , notice this.On Rosh HaShanah the blowing consisted of the following: There were three distinct series (of thirty blasts each) which then concluded with a blowing of ten blasts. At the end of these blowings, there was ONE LAST, long sounding of the trumpet.(see Encyclopedia Judaica vol. 14 p. 1444.) It was called "Teki'ah Gedolah" which means: "The Great Blowing." Since this day closed with a single, long blast of the shofar that became louder and louder until it ended--it reminded the Jews of the sustained trumpet blast that increased in loudness when the Lord came down to Mount sinai to speak to Moses in Exodus 19:19. The FIRST and LAST trump therefore are almost identical in description.
If this analysis is correct then Rosh Hashanah very well could be the day of the rapture. We will soon see.Would you please go ahead and prepare the Fudge so we can have some on arrival in Heaven.I like mine with walnuts--and maybe some tea on the side. Don't worry if you don't have time-- we can always "order out" and have some angels pick some up. Take care.

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plus my reply (Note: Sorry that I can only print excerpts. The email was way too long. I have to take off Pro and Con 2 to load this. My Web site is full.)


I don't think so. He can be a type but not the antitype.

Revelation is written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10, the first and last chapters. Jesus signed off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5).

> The 7th & Last, Loud Trumpet Call of God is mentioned in Rev 11:15; Rev
> 10:7; I Cor 15:52;  I Thess 4:16b & Matt 24:31a. There will be no
> resurrection or rapture (This word is not found in God's Word) at the 8th to
> the Last Trumpet before the 7 Trumpets of the 1260-day Great Tribulation.

Rev. 10:7 and 11:15 are the seventh of the seven trumpet judgments, which follow the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I Cor 15:52 is the last blast of the two silver trumpets.

Numbers 10:2-4 says, "Make thee two (not seven) trumpets of silver...that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps (plural): And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (which represents Heaven). And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The final "calling of the assembly" is for the church. Heb. 12:22,23 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the GENERAL ASSEMBLY and CHURCH of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

When the FIRST TRUMPET is blown, the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place (Rev. 4:1) The "princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." They are 12 of the elders. The other elders are the 12 apostles. When the LAST TRUMP sounds, ALL the assembly will be present, both those called up in the Pre-Trib Rapture and those called up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. This is seen in I Cor. 15:51,52.

It is also seen in Mark 13:27: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those that were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

I Thess 4:16b is the FIRST TRUMP, the first Rapture. At that time only part of the saved are in Heaven. I Cor. 15:52 is the LAST TRUMP, the last Rapture. When they both have sounded, ALL the assembly of "just men made perfect" is in Heaven. All are there before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth.

Re: "Rapture" not being in the Bible. I Thess 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." The words "caught up" are from "harpazo," which in my Latin Bible is "rapiemir," which in English is called Rapture. It is a good word. It is used in Acts 8:39: "Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip" and 2 Cor. 12:2,4: "CAUGHT UP to the third heaven...CAUGHT UP into paradise," also in Rev. 12:5: "her child was CAUGHT UP unto God." If you would rather call it the Greek "Harpazo," call it that. Harpazo means catch away, catch up, pluck, pull, take (by force). Whatever word you choose to use, it means that Christ is going to pluck up his Bride and take this group to Heaven. Later, he will pluck up the remainder of the Body of Christ and take them to Heaven too. Just as Christ comes twice to walk the Earth, he will come twice in the air.

> Now we can be absolutely certain that an
> evil Roman King from the city on 7 hills; who was fatally wounded by a sword
> *BEFORE* Revelation was written in AD 96; and whose name adds up to 666; is
> presently in this *ABYSS* or *HELL*!

This is in reference to Rev. 17:8: "The beast that thou sawest ("scarlet coloured," (v. 3) i.e., "the great red dragon...that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan," Rev. 12:3,9) was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (in anyone now); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (and enter into the second son of perdition, the False Prophet), and go into perdition...and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was (in Judas), and is not (in man now), and yet is (he still exists)."

> God had promised  in Jer 50:3,13;
> 51:26,62-64 that no one would ever live in Babylon again after her total
> destruction about 275 BC. And God has kept His promise since Babylon
> is still a pile of rubble to this very day.

Not so. Saddam Hussein has rebuilt Babylon. It's final destruction is still future. Read "The Rise of Babylon," by Charles H. Dyer (1991).

> We must therefore conclude that the evil city on 7 Hills or Rome will most
> likely be the HEADQUARTERS of 666 during the Great Tribulation.

I don't think so. It is moved to Babylon on the Euphrates. Zech. 5:10,11 explains, "Whither do these bear the ephah (largest measure for wheat, the world church) And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was, Gen. 11:2): and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base (the Tower of Babel)."

> Wasn't Jesus a Post-Trib Prophet since he never even mentioned the
> supposedly very important pre-trib rapture in Matt 24:3-31 or Rev 5 thru 19!!

No. He put the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 4:1 and the Pre-Wrath Rapture in 7:14.

> I Thess 5:2-4:  "The Day of the Lord (Just mentioned in I Thess 4:16,17
> & also in 2 Thess 2:1-3) will come like a thief in the night.  While people
> are saying "Peace and safety"(See Rev 11:10 & Matt 24:50,51) destrucion will
> come on them suddenly." (See Rev 11:15,18 & 2 Thess 1:7-10; 2 Pet 3:10,13; &
> Heb 10:25b).... "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day
> should surprise you like a thief." (See Rev 3:3; Rev 16:15 & 2 Thess 2:1-3)

So why don't you come into the light instead of having to be surprised like those dwelling in darkness? If you are in the light, this day of destruction will not surprise you like a thief. You will already be in Heaven by this time. The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord is the day of destruction, the day of God's Wrath. Two Harpazos will have taken place by that time. You will not be here for God's Wrath.

>I believe that the first half of Daniel's 70th Week has already been completed

I don't think so. The two witnesses of Rev. 11 prophesy 1260 days. Then the Jews have to flee Jerusalem and are fed in the wilderness another 1260 days (Rev. 12:6).

> in Rev 13:11 the word "Lamb" is used to describe the "False Prophet"

I don't think so. A horn represents power. Satan has two comings to power as Christ does. It says, "like a lamb." That means like Christ. Satan was in Judas and will be in the False Prophet, two comings to power.

I hope you join us in the first Harpazo. "And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

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Updated 9-18-98