Pro and Con 180, Uploaded 9-19-98, 1:30PM
Incoming Email> I have not been successful in bringing up http://www.yeshuatheking.org/bramlett_files.html referred to in P/C 178. Has anyone else had this problem?
My reply> I got it ok. In the section /newton.html I found this interesting bit:
"6. In August 1992, David Gant was lost and trapped in an underwater river cave while scuba diving late at night for catfish. He found an 18" high air pocket and clung to a stalactite for 14 hours, thinking he would be rescued. Without hope, he finally decided he was going to die and prayed that the Lord would save his soul. Instantly, the presence of the Lord came, cleansed and saved him. Ecstatic with joy and peace, David asked the Lord to take him and not leave him in this world. Instead the Lord spoke to him and said, "I want you to go back and get your family ready to meet Me. And go tell the whole world I am coming for my children before the year 2000." Let the reader judge this." ---Jim Bramlett
The other file, I copied and will attach.
Incoming Email> I was surfing the net and found your page relating to end events etc and noticed that you had given a date in the year 2008 AD for the end of the age. I would be very grateful if you would give me your reasons for arriving at this date. From my own calculations, relating to time periods gleaned for the Bible and history 2008 AD is, I believe, a potentially highly significant date. I would be grateful if you would point me in the direction of material that you have written on the substantiation of this date, or briefly outline your reasoning. If you are interested, and find yourself able to to this for me, I will provide you with some facts that I think you may find very interesting. Kindest regards
My reply> I wrote a book, "Exit: 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed," also published by Avon Books as "The End of the Age," that explains all this.
Actually, I think this age will end Elul 29, 5767 (our Sept. 12, 2007), on Erev Rosh HaShanah. I think Tishri 1, 5768 is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is also the Day of God's Wrath. His wrath comes up in his face as Israel is attacked by the united nation's army under Gog. The Lord will fight for them that day. The great mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 will hit the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5), destroying all but one sixth of the invading forces (Ezek. 39:2). Israel will bury the dead 7 months to cleanse the land for his glorious return (Ezek. 39:12), and Christ will return on Nisan 1, 5768 (a Jewish leap year, and Nisan 1 is our April 6, 2008). April 6 is the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar. Nisan 1 is the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year. Jesus will return to Earth as King of kings as the Regnal Year begins and as Lord of lords as the Sacred Year begins. Nisan 1 is the same time that all the other Israelite kings officially took office.
Incoming Email> Ken Visscher wrote:
Marilyn,,, do you want me to write you on Sept 21st and ask you what went wrong?
My reply> I asked you a question about Lu. 21:36: "What are "all these things" that we can escape?" Why didn't you answer? Is this a one-way conversation? you tell me what you want to and pay no attention to what I say? Aren't you able to defend your position? Let's discuss the pro and cons in Christian agape love, paying attention to Scripture as we go.
You are welcome to write me any time. However, I don't know what I could tell you on the 21st that I can't tell you now. I have always emphasized that I am not a prophet. I am just one who has studied the Bible intensively ever since at least 1960. If the Rapture does not happen this Erev Rosh HaShanah, it seems to me that we will have to wait until next Pentecost.
If Song of Solomon 2:10,11 applies to the Rapture of the BRIDE OF Christ, it isn't likely to take place in Israel's rainy season. (I didn't mean to capitalize BRIDE OF, it just happened.) Song 2:10,11 says, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone." The "former rain" in Israel begins with Rosh HaShanah, Tishri 1, 5759 (Sept. 21, 1998). The "latter rain" begins Nisan 1, 5759 (Mar. 18, 1999). It seems to me that the time slot for the Rapture would be from Iyar 1 through Elul 29 (Apr. 27 through Sept. 20, 1998, or Apr. 17 through September 10, 1999).
Actually, Pentecost seemed to fit Song 2:10-14 pretty well, but someone found out that a certain species of turtledove summers in Europe and migrates south around autumn.
Gal. 6:9 has an interesting thought. Paul is talking to believers ("BRETHREN," v.1). Verses 7-9 say, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for IN DUE SEASON we shall reap, if we faint not."
Does this mean that we are to be Raptured "IN DUE SEASON"? Christ was to come as the former and latter rain in Israel (De. 11:14; Hos. 6:1-3; Joel 2:23; Ezek. 29:17,21). Since the former rain starts Tishri 1, Jesus was probably born on Tishri 1, Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of Trumpets. Thus the Rapture could be at this "due season."
Here is another thought. Christ is the "last Adam" (I Cor. 15:45). The first Adam was a type of the last Adam. I think Adam was created on Erev HaShanah, that Eve his bride was taken out of his body on that day, and that this "kosmos," order of things, began to operate on the Saturday Sabbath, Tishri 1. Eve is a type of the Bride of Christ. Does this indicate that we will be taken out of the Body of Christ on Erev HaShanah? Is this our due season? Will the Jews take over as priests on Tishri 1?
I thought that last Pentecost seemed a likely time for the Rapture. Since it did not happen then, Erev HaShanah seems to be the next most likely date. This summer season could be a time that Satan is allowed to sift us as wheat. I Peter 1:6 could tie in: "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now FOR A SEASON (summer?), if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST (i.e., the Rapture).
Several have told me that they do seem to be under attack by the enemy. In our family, we have had one trial after another hit us, financial worries, things breaking down, pain, Ed's heart attack and open heart surgery, etc. If this is the time referred to as "THE TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH," we are standing strong and faithful no matter what, waiting patiently (Rev. 3:10) for "THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST." We believe the Lord's promises, and in Rev. 3:10, he said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM the hour of temptation (pierasmos, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
It seems that Christians have the trial of our faith, and unbelievers have the Tribulation to try them. Ours may only last a season, but theirs lasts about seven years.
We are watching (Mt. 24:42) and praying that we will be accounted worthy to ESCAPE the trial that is coming upon the whole world (Lu. 21:36; Rev. 3:10), knowing that "the righteous is taken away from the evil to come" (Isa. 57:1). We know also that "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:15).
Added 9-20-98, 12:10 AM:
[i] Re: Rapture by Merit ? -- God Forbids it (SJBLETH@webtv.net (Jane Bleth)
To: firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, BGreg@earthlink.net
Marilyn, Tom, Nancy, & Greg,
Please read this post and if you have the time, I would really like to hear your thoughts. You have all studied this much more than I and maybe could offer me some help here.
Thank you, Jane Bleth
P.S. I'm also going to forward a personal letter from Richard Coombs to me and my response for your review. Hope to hear from any or all of you soon.
From: "Richard Coombes"
...Now, the Salvation process includes our ressurrection and the rapture of the Church. We can do nothing to earn this. Likewise we can do nothing to lose it.
If we are relying upon the substitutionary cross-work of Christ then we are saved.
If we are saved we will be raptured if we are still alive. If we are dead, we will be ressurrected.
Whether or not we are living a spiritual or carnal lifestyle when He returns is not the criteria for our being taken up or left behind. NO believer will be left behind. No matter what spiritual maturity or immaturity level they are within at the moment of the rapture, if they are resting in Christ for salvation on the basis of Grace/faith they will be taken. Were it by human efforts, the the cross of Christ would be of no effect.
Those that proclaim otherwise are damnable heretics and false teachers, worthy of the same judgment as that which will befall Satan and his compatriots of the rebel angelic realm.
From: "Richard Coombes" , To: "Jane Bleth"
NO, you fail to grasp the entire concept of Grace, Jane. You also fail to grasp that the Ressurrection/Rapture is part of the Salvation process.
What this boils down to is the issue of Rapture by merit. You can't seem to realize that You can do nothing to earn favor with God. NOTHING... I can do NOTHING to earn favor with God. NONE OF US can. FAVOR always flows from HIM as a FREE GIFT not on the basis of what we do... NOTHING WE DO GAINS US BLESSINGS FROM HIM EVER... EVER. Your theory makes Him obligated to us because we've earned it. You've equated it with a "reward"... Reward is the same as a paycheck... Reward=paycheck=WORK That word in question in Ephesians 2:9... for "work" is the greek word "ergon"... it means to receive on the basis of merit...as in for instance a paycheck..or payment of a debt due.
What is so insidious about your doctrine is that is quietly engages this merit principle...and its a part of the salvation process... SO What you've done is injected EARNINGS AS PART OF THE SALVATION PROCESS... a process of which part is the Rapture Ressurrection... its the finalizing part of the Salvation process we call "sanctification"...
This issue has nothing to do with timing of the rapture, Jane.. It has to do with the basis for how one relates to God... either on the basis of Grace... or MERIT... Your position ... cancels out GRACE Therefore, you've fallen from Grace ... just like the Galatians...
What amazes me...is how you would swallow something like this from a known False Prophetess... who has repeatedly prophesied the rapture of the Church...falsely... the last time being this past May.
***FROM MARILYN: Actually, the first time I picked a date was this past May 31, Pentecost, and I said it was my opinion, not a prophecy.
This woman is proclaiming False Prophecies and False Doctrines that destroy Grace... and you're caught up in it... I would urge you to read and study carefully the entire scope of Romans and Galatians and learn all the aspects of Soteriology.
LOOKKKK THIS PROBLEM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A SPLIT RAPTURE>>>
GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD>> I HAVE ALWAYS HELD THAT THERE WOULD BE A CATCHING UP OF THE TRIB SAINTS AT THE SECOND ADVENT... BEFORE THE FINAL WRATH HITS.
THIS PROBLEM HAS TO DO WITH RELATING TO GOD and GRACE by FAITH... not ... NOT FAITH + WORKS... which is exactly what the idea of Rapture by Merit is all about.
IF YOU PERSIST WITH THIS IDEA .... YOU WON'T BE GETTING RAPTURED... QUITE FRANKLY... YOU don't yet understand salvation...neither does Marilynn Agee.... IF you did you wouldn't hold to a Merit Mentality...that you can do something to deserve favor from God. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE BASIS FOR SALVATION ... THEN YOU'RE NOT SAVED. I WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU TO RE-READ WHAT I WROTE ABOUT SALVATION...THEN STUDY AND MEDITATE ON THE SCRIPTURAL TEXTS...OF EPHESIANS 2:1-10... BETTER YET ALSO ROMANS AND GALATIANS.
Also, I read the articles...I've been tracking Agee for sometime now. These are not scripturally sound... the scriptures to support this and many other doctrines are twisted and so badly mangled that at times its beyond belief.
LOOKK I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING... Your request for me to provide scriptural support for a pre-trib rapture for all believers...just missed the whole point of what I have been trying to tell you all along....
NO ONE GETS SAVED OR RAPTURED BASED UPON ANYTHING THAT THEY CAN DO...or ACT... THE WHOLE SALVATION aspect is based upon what
1. YOU CANT DO ANYTHING
2. GOD DOES EVERYTHING
On that basis... all believers whether carnal or spiritual receive the same gift... at the same time...
IF YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT THESE TERMS ARE AND WHAT THEY MEAN>>>
Grace, Faith, Works, Doron/gift...
Grace = unearned/ or UNDESERVED GIFT>
YOUR RAPTURE IS UNDESERVED NO MATTER WHEN... NO HUMAN DESERVES RAPTURE or any other part of salvation apart from God taking care of the problem... You are making yourself part of the solution...as a way to get raptured ahead of the game.
GOD DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY... YOU ARE CAUGHT UP IN SOME FORM OF CULTISHNESS EVERY BIT AS WICKED AS THE MORMON CHURCH...FOR YOU ARE STILL WITHOUT SALVATION, UNTIL YOU CAN UNDERSTAND... YOU DO NOTHING TO EARN IT, YOU DO NOTHING TO EARN IT, EITHER INITIALLY OR IN THE SANCTIFICATION STAGE KNOWN AS THE RAPTURE RESSURRECTION.
ONE MORE THING... MARILYNN AGEE IS AS I INDICATED EARLIER A FALSE PROPHETESS... SHE IS ALSO A FALSE TEACHER... I'VE NOT HEARD OF THIS GREG ALSTON BEFORE, BUT ITS NO DIFFERENT WHETHER ITS HIM OR HER.
I studied theology at the Moody Bible Institute of Chicago, and Calvary Bible College in Kansas City... 30 years ago... I've been a believer since the age of 5 ... (I got an early start)... I've personally in person sat under some of the greatest theologians of this century. Sadly, many are now gone to glory... Its a veritable who's who of the Christian conservative evangelical fundamental community... that I studied under... I know the subject of salvation inside out...its you who doesn't understand salvation or you would NOT have taken the view you have... You've been sold a bill of goods and your statement....
Thank you for your concern over my salvation, but rest assured I am trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for that!----
From Richard Coombs:
No, your not... not when you've told me what you've told me... you're trusting in yourself as well... for salvation... For to be raptured early requires MERIT ON YOUR PART... YOU HAVE TO EARN THAT EARLY TICKET WITH HIM.... THAT IS WHAT YOUR PRECIOUS LITTLE DOCTRINE IS ALL ABOUT>>>> EARNING... REWARDS are earning... you are trusting in yourself....as part of the equation... and that negates and destroyes the Cross-work of Christ on your behalf... YOU HAVE NO SALVATION YET>>until the moment you realize you can't earn ANYTHING FROM GOD>>NOT REWARDS...NOTHING. NOT ONE THING....>
That is what I'm trying to get through to all of those who are holding this cultish view...
From: Jane Bleth
My dear brother, Richard,
I commend you for your valient defense of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Indeed, I agree with everything you so thoroughly expounded upon in regard to salvation is by faith alone and has nothing to do with our efforts and works. However, I am at a loss as to where in the scriptures salvation guarantees a pre-tribulation rapture. I agree that scripture teaches resurrection and rapture to those who remain of all saved in Christ, but when this takes place is the issue , you see. You seem to believe that you have a complete and inexhaustably profound understanding of prophesy, but frankly, I find it hard to believe that you have read very much of the teachings I have read, which brought me to an understanding of the split-rapture view. I am praying that you will at least read some of the articles and see if they aren't scripturally sound. I remain teachable always trusting in the Holy Spirt of Truth to open my understanding and to keep me from being deceived. Believe me, I know the difference between the true gospel and false gospels as I came out of Mormonism. If after reading some of these you still feel the same way, I would be happy to examine any scriptural evidence you have that guarantees a pre-tribulation rapture to all saved believers. The website I'm forwarding is from a sister named Nancy who has put together various articles as she has studied this view over the past year. Please read it and at the bottom there is a listing of articles. I have read most of the one titled "Judgement Seat of Christ" and It is very good as far as I've read. It's pretty long. Also, have you read through Marilyn Agee's website or just what was posted in the thread? Pastor Greg Alston's is www.surefoundation.org. Click on samples for article on rapture. From what I've read of these so far, I can find nothing unscriptural or out of context; to the contrary, a lot of my confusion has disappeared because previously seemingly unclear and conflicting scriptures are reconciled. A clear understanding of this has also shown me why some teach you can lose your salvation, which I have always disagreed with. Many of the scriptures they use are talking about rewards or crowns being lost, not salvation. Do you really have a good understanding of the difference between salvation and rewards? This is where a lot of misunderstandin and division comes from it seems.
Thank you for your concern over my salvation, but rest assured I am trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for that!
Your servant in the Lord,
Jane Bleth, http://members.home.net/nklassy/nklassy.htm
Note: I would be afraid to say that someone that professes to believe in Christ is not saved. I remember a scripture that says to judge not that we be not judged. I think that judgment call is best left up to our Lord Jesus Christ.
I too am trusting in the finished work of Christ alone for my Salvation. Salvation and rewards are two different things. We cannot work for Salvation. We can work for rewards. We must properly divide the word of God.
Some people think I am a prophet/prophetess. All along, I have stated that I am not. I am just one that has studied the Bible intensively ever since at least 1960. Since I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2 that said to publish and conceal not, I am telling just what I think. It is up to each person to be responsible enough to look up the scriptures and like the Bereans see if these things are so. The Bible is the only real truth we have.
Some also roll Salvation, which is by faith only, into the same ball with the Pre-Trib Rapture, which is for wise virgins with plenty of oil of the Holy Spirit. Some think that when Christ comes before the Tribulation, he will not leave a finger of the Body of Christ behind. I ask them to take a look at the lukewarm Laodiceans. They have to be in Christ before they can be spewed out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16). Jesus tells them, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Rev. 3:19). Repent means turn around, change your mind.
I respectfully and lovingly ask these people to look at these scriptures and ask themselves a few questions.
Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Q. Why do they have to wash their robes? How did they become soiled? Are their garments spotted by the flesh? Were they carnal Christians at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture?
II Peter 1:1-13 says, "SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that HAVE OBTAINED (they are already saved) like precious FAITH with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (Spirit of God), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. AND BESIDE THIS, giving all diligence (spoude, carefulness), ADD TO YOUR FAITH virtue...knowledge...temperance...patience...godliness. brotherly kindness. charity (agape, love). For *IF* THESE THINGS BE IN YOU, AND ABOUND, THEY MAKE YOU (it does not say faith makes you, but these things make you) that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But HE THAT LACKETH THESE THINGS IS BLIND (like the Laodiceans), AND CANNOT SEE AFAR OFF (Heaven), and HATH FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS (at the moment of Salvation). Wherefore the rather, brethren (Christians), GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: FOR *IF* YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL: For so AN ENTRANCE (the Rapture through the "open door," Rev. 3:8) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you (believers) always in remembrance of these things."
Q. What happens IF these things are not in believers, and abound? How can a Christian NOT see Heaven at this particular time? What is your calling? What is your election? If you are saved by faith, why do you also have to make your calling and election sure? How can you fall if you do not do these things? Why do believers need to be reminded of these things?
Rev. 3:5,6 says, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (i.e., believers).
Q. Is it possible that a member of the church can NOT be an overcomer when Heaven's door opens the first time? Can he be caught NOT wearing white raiment? Can he have his name blotted out temporarily and be caught up with the Tribulation saints after he washes his robe in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14)? Do you have an ear to hear what the Spirit is saying to the CHURCHES?
Rev. 19:7,8 says, "Let us (believers, Rev. 1:1) be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife HATH MADE HERSELF READY. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness (lit., righteousnesses, including both the righteousness of Christ and the righteous acts) of saints."
Q. How can a member of the Body of Christ make herself/himself ready to be the Bride of Christ? What happens if she/he is wearing garments spotted by the flesh? What if she/he is not operating in God's agape love?
In I Cor. 13:1-3, Paul (a believer) said, "THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity (agape, love), I am BECOME as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and THOUGH I HAVE *ALL FAITH,* so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity (agape, love), I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (agape, love), IT PROFITETH ME NOTHING."
Q. How can a strong believer like Paul "HAVE ALL FAITH" and still say, "IT PROFITETH ME NOTHING" if I have not agape love? Is it because God is love, and if the love of God is not in one, he does not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to be counted as a wise virgin? Since a believer cannot lose his Salvation, and is sealed until the day of redemption, what can he lose?
I Cor. 3:10-18 says, "But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now IF ANY MAN BUILD UPON THIS FOUNDATION gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's WORK of what sort it is. If any man's WORK abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? IF any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself."
Q. Can a believer lose rewards? Why does it say, "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire"? Was there fire when the Lord shut the door in Noah's Ark? Was there fire the same day Lot left Sodom (Lu. 17:26-29)? If there are not two Raptures, why are there two differing accounts of one being taken and one left, the days of Noah and the days of Lot, the first day with no fire, the second day with fire?
In Luke 17:22, Jesus "said unto the disciples (believers), The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man, and ye SHALL NOT SEE IT."
Verses 26-30 says, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they MARRIED wives, they were given in MARRIAGE, until the day that Noe entered into the ark...Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all, Even thus shall it be in the DAY (singular) when the Son of man is revealed."
Q. Are there two days of the Son of man, one as the days of Noah, the other as the days of Lot? Why is marriage only mentioned in the reference to the days of Noah? Why is fire and brimstone mentioned only in the reference to the days of Lot?
I think it is because there are two Raptures, one Pre-Trib, as in Rev. 4:1, and the other Pre-Wrath, as in Rev. 7:14. The Rapture in 4:1 precedes the Tribulation in Rev. 6. The Rapture in 7:14 precedes God's Wrath in Rev. 8.
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