Pro and Con 1800

Posted 5-20-14



By Stoyan Zaimov, Christian Post Reporter. May 15, 2014

"Pope Francis said that people cannot be Christians without the Church, explaining that Christian identity is rooted in it and that believers cannot stand alone.

"Our Christian identity is belonging to a people: the Church. Without this, we are not Christians. We entered the Church through baptism: there we are Christians," Francis said during Mass on Thursday, Vatican Radio reported.

"...a Christian without the Church is incomprehensible. It is a thing of the laboratory, an artificial thing, a thing that cannot give life," Francis said.


I don't agree with that, and I have proof. My husband Ed, who accepted Christ when 14, and was not a Catholic, died Dec. 27, 2011 and went to Heaven. He came to see me in his celestial body on the following April 2.

Instead of 87, he is now 33. He had visited his family and my family in Heaven. The ones that I knew were not Catholic.

What we need to do is believe in Christ as our Saviour. That, plus nothing, will get us into Heaven.

Rom 10:9-13 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Joh 3:15-18 says, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

2Co_5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."


An ancient sprawling shrine in the heart of Jerusalem's walled Old City that Christian tradition says was built on the site of the crucifixion, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Considered one of the holiest sites in Christendom, it is uneasily shared by six denominations - the Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Egyptian Copts, Syrian Orthodox and Ethiopian Orthodox.

Eastern Christians refer to the site as the Church of the Resurrection.


The Lord validates that location every year. The Holy Fire comes from Jesus' tomb every year on the Eve of Easter. Omer 1 starts on Easter Sunday. That counts down to Ascension Day, Omer 40, and the day before Pentecost, Omer 49.

This year, "Bells rang as worshippers rushed to use the flames to ignite their own candles.

"In mere seconds, the bursts of light spread throughout the cavernous church as flames jumped from one candle to another. Clouds of smoke wafted through the crammed hall as flashes from cameras and mobile phones documented what is for many, the spiritual event of a lifetime."

I am hoping that the First-Trump Rapture will be on Ascension Day. Jesus acted it out.

Acts 1:10,11 says, "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men (i.e., Moses and Elijah) stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

We are waiting for him to come in like manner.


Zion Evrony, ambassador to the Vatican, says Israel has 'no intention' of ceding Jerusalem's Tomb of David or the Cenacle


Animated map (

A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: "Marilyn Agee concerning Apostasy"

Marilyn, your recent explanation of why apostasy should be rendered departure was the best I've ever read.

Thank you. YBIC


Thanks, friend. It is nice to be appreciated.

When the first Rapture takes place, the man of sin will be revealed. He won't go in the Rapture.

No wonder there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev 7:9) in heaven after the second Rapture. To some, only seeing is believing.

I try to read everything you send to Five Doves, expecting it to be well thought out, and you don't let me down. We agree on lots of things. Agape

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: The Departure, "he apostasia"

I hope you and your son are doing ok. I just read your letter on Five Doves this morning and the book of 1 Enoch, Enoch explains the departure, the falling away, the apostasia is referring to those who leave the church and are led astray by those who have corrupted the teachings of God. God bless


I'm ok. Between the doctor freezing the skin cancer on my nose one more time, and my taking a Chitin Inhibiter, Grapefruit Seed Extract, and Acidophilus, the skin cancer on my nose is gone. Thank you, Lord, that I didn't have to have surgery on my nose like I had on my neck. In Jesus' name, Amen.

My back is not well, but better. Dave just got a tooth pulled. He's in pain.

> > Enoch explains the departure, the falling away, the apostasia is referring to those who leave the church and are led astray by those who have corrupted the teachings of God.

Where does Enoch explain the departure and the falling away?

Gen 5:22-25 says, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

Heb_11:5 says, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

The Book of Enoch, written about 300 BC, says,
"[Chapter 1]
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,[And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. 5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. 6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame 7 And THE EARTH SHALL BE WHOLLY RENT IN SUNDER, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men). 8 But with the righteous He will make peace. And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'. 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And they shall all be blessed. And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (


Jim Bramlett said,
"In Emil Gaverluk's book, "The Rapture before the Russian invasion of Israel," pages 173-177, the author has actual copies of original pages of seven major pre-KJV English versions of the Bible that show the Greek word apostasia translated as "departing first." For examples, the following Bibles translate 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as shown:

" 1. Wycliffe Bible (1330) has "departynge first"
" 2. Tyndale Bible (1525/26) has "departynge first"
" 3. Coverdale Bible 1535) has "departynge first"
" 4. Crammer Bible (1539) has "departynge first"
" 5. Geneva Bible (1560) has "departing first"
" 6. Breeches Bible (1583) has "departing first"
" 7. Beza Bible (1583) has "departing first"

"Thanks to Marilyn Agee for those dates above and also for the following which shows other verses where the verb form of apostasia is defined as "departure":

" 2 Timothy 2:19 says, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART from iniquity."

" 1 Timothy 6:5 says, "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such WITHDRAW thyself."

" 2 Corinthians 12:8 says, "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might DEPART from me."

" Acts 12:10 says, "When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel DEPARTED from him."

" Luke 4:13 says, "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he DEPARTED from him for a season."

"If "departing" is the correct translation of apostasia as those seven pre-KJV translations indicate, and as other uses of the word in the New Testament indicate, we have a totally different understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, and it appears that nothing else has to happen before our "departing," glory to God! Jim"

In spite of the Beza Bible (1583) having "departing first," Theodore Beza was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word rather than translate it. The King James Version was the first to pick up on that and render apostasia as "falling away," ignoring what the English Bibles published previously said.

For me, departing makes more sense than falling away. There has always been apostasy. How could we pick out a certain period of apostasy? I expect the Rapture soon. Is there any special apostasy today that would show us that the Rapture is imminent? When the Rapture takes place, the whole world will probably find out about it right away. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

7. Beza Bible (1583) has "departing first".

Later, Beza was the first to transliterate rather than translate "he apostasia." The King James Version was the first to pick up on that and say, "2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition".


It is unfortunate, but the KJV has two mistakes in 2 Th 2:1-5. The "day of Christ" should be "day of the Lord" and "a falling away" should be "a departing".

2Th 2:1-5 (KJV) says, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture), 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (i.e., should be Day of the Lord) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

2 Thess 2:1-5 (NIV) says, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, (i.e., at the First-Trump Rapture) we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter-asserting that the day of the Lord (i.e., Day of God's Wrath, day of the Last-Trump Rapture) has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion ("HE APOSTASIA", the First-Trump Rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?"

2 Thess 2:1-5 (HNV) says, "Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless THE DEPARTURE COMES FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?"

The "day of Messiah" is the Day of Christ, the First-Trump Rapture (I Thess 4:16,17). The Last-Trump Rapture (I Cor 15:51-54) is on the great and terrible Day of the Lord (Rev. 6:17; 7:9-14).

Rev 11:1-3 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, RISE (i.e., in the First-Trump Rapture, the 'Come up hither' of Rev. 4:1), and measure the temple of God (we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit), and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses (i.e., Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

We can know that the "COME UP HITHER" of Rev. 4:1 and the "RISE" of Rev. 11:1 are talking about the same Rapture, because in Rev. 10:10,11, John wrote: "And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy AGAIN before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

The Last-Trump Rapture is in Rev 11:12. It says, "And they (i.e., Moses and Elijah) heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

The 1260 days between the two Raptures shows us that the first Rapture is Mid-Trib. I'm hoping for Ascension Day, May 29, 2014. The last Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath just before the asteroid Wormwood hits Earth. The Great Tribulation is to be shortened. As far as I can see, it looks like it will be shortened a lot, or no flesh would be saved. Agape


"I like Marilyn Agee's post on "apostasia" as the snatching away of the eklesia. Scriptures well presented. If this was, as Marilyn says, the interpretation of eight Bibles before KJV, it's worth thinking about, whatever your views up to this point."


Dr. Shawn Johnson, director of the MMC's veterinary sciences department, seems to agree. He told that most of the sick marine mammals being admitted to the center appear to be starving to death, either from a dearth of available food or from an inability to capture and consume it. Either way, the animals are suffering and nobody seems to know why.

"The ones we are seeing are basically starving to death," he told "It's definitely a mystery. We're hoping it's not the new norm."

Sick, dying animals turning up all across Pacific Coast

Similar events are occurring elsewhere along the Pacific Coast, including in Alaska where dozens of sea lions, whales and other creatures recently turned up dead. Researchers there believe that radiation from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster may be responsible, especially since many of the dead creatures are exhibiting signs of radiation poisoning, including unusual baldness and skin sores.

A 2011 symposium on Fukushima radiation and its effects on marine life essentially predicted these outcomes, having modeled how radiation accumulation on sea ice might harm sea lions, for instance. It explained how radiation exposure in these areas represents an ongoing immunotoxic threat to these innocent creatures, not to mention the damage it can inflict on the thyroid gland and skin.

"Marine transported Fukushima radionuclides... may represent a new stressor to the ecosystem," reads a poster for the meeting.

Gino (18 May 2014): A POST ON FIVE DOVES, RE: Michael, Joe, Philip B, Pastor Bob, Marilyn Agee, David H

Marilyn, When you answer a question, you really "answer" a question, with clearly a lot of studying & writing. Gino


Thanks. I do study and write a lot. I figure that is what the Lord wants me to do.

Back in the 60s or early 70s, he woke me up in the wee hours and said, "Be still and know that I am God." That is in Scripture. Psa_46:10 says, "Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." I was still until daylight, but nothing else happened that I know of.

Also, the Lord put a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2 in a darkened room. It stayed there as long as I kept reading it, and letting it soak in. It says, "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel (the Baal of the Babylonians) is confounded, Merodach (a Babylonian idol) is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces."

The literal Babylon near the Euphrates River will be obliterated by Satan's asteroid Wormwood on the Day of God's Wrath. The USA is not Babylon, as some think. Agape

INCOMING EMAIL, RE: The seven seals

Marilyn you said: I think the Bride of Christ will be in heaven before the first seal is broken.

If the seals have not been opened then HOW did John know what to write?

It would have been pointless to show John the seven seals and not open them up for John to see and write about.

The trumpets were given to seven Angels when the last seal was opened, Revelation 8:2.

Do you not know the fifth Angels have already sounded His trumpet?

The bottomless pit has already been opened; the smoke is rising up from the bottomless pit.

There are only two more Angels to sound their trumpets.

A false peace will be ushered in at the sounding of the sixth Angel sounding His trumpet.

When the last Angel sounds His trumpet, 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the Dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1Corinthians 15 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality


> > Marilyn you said: I think the Bride of Christ will be in heaven before the first seal is broken.

It seems plain to me.
The Preview of the Rapture is in Rev. 1:9-11.
The First-Trump Rapture is in the "Come up hither" in Rev. 4.
Christ is given the seven-sealed book in Rev. 5:7.
The group out of all nations is seen in heaven in 5:9.
The first seal is opened in Rev. 6.
So the First-Trump Rapture comes before the first seal is broken.

> > HOW did John know what to write?

Rev 1:1,2 says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."

In the miracle play, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, "the time is at hand" in 1:3 and 22:10.

In Rev 22:20, Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly. Amen." The Rapture has not yet taken place.

In Rev 1:19, John is told how the script will be organized. It says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (i.e., before the First-trump Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" (after the Rapture). Those subjects will be covered in full before the First-Trump Rapture takes place, and here we are reading it before the First-Trump Rapture has taken place.

Rev 4:1 says, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER" (i.e., after the First-Trump Rapture).

This trumpet of God is not one of the seven given to the angels in Rev. 8. That comes in the hereafter section. It comes after the seventh seal is opened.

> > Do you not know the fifth Angels have already sounded His trumpet?

Rev 8:1,2 says, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The worldwide earthquake of Eze 38:18f comes before the first of the 7 trumpets sound.

Rev 8:5,6 says, "And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

Regarding the Day of God's Wrath, Eze 38:18-23 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (paniym, face, i.e., on the Sign of the Son of Man they see in the sky), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain (i.e., a tsunami), and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone (i.e., the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will impact the Mediterranean Sea). 23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Rev 8:8,9 goes with that. It says, "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed."

The first angel has not sounded yet. When that happens, Rev 8:7 says, "The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up".

We still have grass. Therefore, the first angel has not yet sounded his trumpet.

1Th 4:13-18 describes the First-Trump Rapture. This trump of God comes before the first seal is broken.

It says, "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP OF GOD (i.e., the first one): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Cor 15:51-54 describes the Last-Trump Rapture. It comes after the sixth seal is broken.

It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP (i.e., the last TRUMP OF GOD): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Rev 6:12-17 says, "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Rev 7:9 says, "After this (i.e., after the 144,000 Israelites are sealed) I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands".

Rev 7:14,15 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation (i.e., the last half of the Tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God".

Rev 11:12-15 says, "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them (i.e., Moses and Elijah), Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud (i.e., of Tribulation saints); and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

At the present time, the first Rapture has not taken place. Jesus has not been given the seven-sealed book, so no seals have been broken, and none of the 7 trumpets have sounded. All these come "hereafter" the First-Trump Rapture. Agape

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