Pro and Con 184, Uploaded 9-26-98, PM

Incoming Email

Re: A question for you ABOUT THE END TIME !!!
I have a question for you. my question is what exactualy going to happen in the end times? I mean about God, how is he going to come and save us? I was told that the trumpets are going to sound off and then Jesus is just going to be there, just appear. Do you know the procedure of how he will take us into Heaven? And when he does come, are we just going to float up into heaven with him?

Please reply!!! God Bless!! THAN YOU, Your Truely

My reply

Re: Year of the Rapture:
First, I think that there are two Raptures, a Pre-Trib Rapture and a Pre-Wrath Rapture. The first is seen in Rev. 4:1, the second in Rev. 7:14. In between is Rev. 6, which ends with "the great day of his wrath is come." Then the wrath, the seven trumpet judgments, starts in Rev. 8, after the Tribulation saints are in heaven in 7:14.

Rapture II happens between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. Rev. 7 starts out, "AND after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners (quarters) of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow...another angel...cried...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." The Earth is to be hurt as soon as the sealed ones are in Heaven. The destruction starts with the seven trumpet judgments in Rev. 8.

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:16-18). In I Thess. 5:9, it says, For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together." Whether we are wise Philadelphian virgins or foolish Laodicean virgins, believers are to be comforted because we are not going to have to go through the worst of times, the destruction of civilization as we know it by asteroid impacts (Rev. 8:8,10). The first group raptured will escape the Tribulation. The last group raptured will still escape the Wrath of God.

Lu. 21:36 says, Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL these things that shall come to pass (escape all the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man." That is the Pre-Trib Rapture.

At the second Rapture, which takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals, it is very likely that unbelievers will see Christ. That appearing seems to be the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30. After the sixth seal is broken, Rev. 6:14,16,17 says, "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together...And (men) said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

However, I don't see any scripture that would lead me to believe that unbelievers will see Christ at the first Rapture. When Thomas had to see Jesus to believe, Jesus said, "blessed are they that have NOT SEEN, and yet have believed." That applies to us up to the time we see Jesus in the sky.

My son, David, had a dream of the three of us (Ed, Dave and me) rising straight up, very fast, yet feeling no wind rush, from our front yard. We had been looking at a light in a hole in the clouds. However, I don't know if it will be exactly like that or not. In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, John was caught up to Heaven, turned, and then saw Christ. That, we can go by. I Thess. 4:17 says that we "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." That, we can go by.

I just got a new thought when I looked up the scripture about Thomas. I wonder if the account of Thomas has a double application. Both Thomas and Didymus mean "twin." Twin is emphasized. Let's think about it as we read the following scripture and see how it might apply. Does Thomas represent the Laodiceans that are left behind the first time, but go the second time, the latter of the twin Raptures? If so, it may give us a clue to the year of the first Rapture.

John 20:24-29 says, "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was NOT with them when JESUS CAME (could this represent Rapture I, after "the rain is over and gone," Song of Solomon 2:11, in spring 1999?). The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord (after the Resurrection). But he said unto them, Except I shall SEE in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will NOT BELIEVE. And AFTER EIGHT DAYS AGAIN (1999 + 8 = 2007, year of Rapture II) his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then CAME JESUS (the second Rapture?), the doors (symbol of the two Raptures, Rev. 3:8; Mt. 24:33) being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace (real peace comes in the Millennium, and the first day, or the Eve, is Rapture II) be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and BE NOT FAITHLESS, BUT BELIEVING. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord AND my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast SEEN ME (as at Rapture II?), thou hast believed: blessed (i.e., our "blessed hope") are they that have NOT SEEN (as at Rapture I), and yet have believed."

The number eight means new beginning. Why was Jesus circumcised the eighth day? Part of the BODY OF CHRIST was gone on the eighth day. Lots of scripture accounts cast shadows of things to come.

At the Transfiguration, Luke 9:27-31 says, "I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD (sounds like a Rapture). And it came to pass ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James (not Thomas), and WENT UP into a mountain (Heaven is represented as a high mountain) to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory (Heaven?)."

The account in Mt. 17:1-7 says, "AND AFTER six days (about eight is after six) Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them UP into a HIGH MOUNTAIN APART, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias...and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; HEAR YE HIM (as in I Thess. 4:16). And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face (as John did, Rev. 1:17)...And Jesus CAME and touched them, and said, ARISE, and BE NOT AFRAID."

The account in Luke 9:27f, says in v. 34-36, "there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they ENTERED INTO THE CLOUD. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And when the voice (as at a Rapture) was past, Jesus was found alone." He is both Lord and God.

It sounds like we will enter into a cloud before we see Jesus. I Thess. 4:16,17 says that we "shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."

If these things are types and shadows, why does Luke 9:28 say, "ABOUT an eight days" and John 20:26 say "AFTER eight days again"? If Rapture I was on the Feast of Trumpets, I think it would be exactly eight years before Rapture II on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007. Rapture II happens just before the Judgment Seat of Christ on that day, which is also Christ's Coronation Day. The Feast of Pentecost, in 1999, would be "about" eight years before Sept. 13, 2007. If Pentecost is figured the Orthodox way, on Sunday, it will be next May 23.

I can think of one thing that seems contrary to this. Rev. 2:10 says to the church under persesution, "ye shall have tribulation ten days." If that were ten years, as it can be translated, I thought the Jewish 5758 to 5768 fit it perfectly. Now 5758 has ended. It meant "the season of Noah." Could 5758 have merely been telling us that we were now IN the SEASON of Noah? As for trials for some, look at Clinton, the stock market, the world-wide oil glut. Trials of sorts have begun, not only here, but in the whole world, Japan, Russia, China, Malaysia, etc. They will just increase. My hope is that we will get out of here before the Y2K bug creates such havoc that people will be all too ready to accept the world government's vise-grip control over their lives.

From Sept. 13, 1993, the signing of the Oslo Accords, to Sept. 13, 2007 is 14 years. Aren't these the seven good years and the seven bad years? The year 1993 + 7 = 2000. This is perfect for I think the Tribulation begins on the Feast of Weeks in 2001. A fifth of the corn was taken up by Joseph in the seven good years. I think the Rapture must take place before 2001. There must be some time to build the Temple before that (Rev. 11:1). It seems reasonable to assume that since we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, we will be raised up before the earthly temple is constructed. Maybe next Pentecost? about eight years before Rapture II?. On the Jewish calendar, next Pentecost will be in 5759. If Rapture II was on the Eve of Trumpets in 2007, it would be 5767, about eight years apart. We should know about eight months from now.

Incoming Email

Re: Rapture 98 still possible?
It has been some time since I have written you. I pray that all is going well and that Ed continues to improve in health and spirit. Your web site has been a blessing to many readers. Thanks for your effort.

In some of your recent pro/ con postings you have indicated that since the rainy season has begun in Israel, you were looking for a spring or summer rapture 1999. I am not ready to give up on 1998 yet. Look at the following.

1. Your article on the parallels in the 400's which designates something of importance

( the rapture) is still to come this year. God put those blocks of years there for us to find leaving a road map of years for all important end time events. We must not dismiss this.

2. Bob Ware's work with numbers indicating the same thing.

3. Pastor Riley's work indicating 1998 as the year we fly away home. His findings are very good and well researched. If you have not read his work it is located on the 5 Doves site at: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~spirit5/letter98/am3272.htm

4. The Bible opens ( gematria) and closes with 1998 / 8991...1998 in Hebrew and Greek 5. 153 Fish factors to 1998.

6. Noah Troyer's prophecy in 1878 that man has yet 120 more years. This modern day Noah's time isn't up yet till 1998 has come to an end.

Do you think 1998 is still possible and if not, how do we explain away all of the above? In Christ

My reply

Thanks. Ed has had no setbacks. His recovery is slow but sure. Even his two falls did not hurt him. We are praising God and thanking everyone for those prayers in our behalf.

> I am not ready to give up on 1998 yet.

I certainly hope you are right. Read the first thing on Pro and Con 184 though for something new I thought could possibly tie in...

> Do you think 1998 is still possible and if not, how do we explain away all
> of the above?

Of course, it is possible. It seems that we are in the ballpark any way you look at it. Noah was 600 and we are either in or near the 6000th year since Adam left the Garden. Noah was 480 years old when he got the 120-year warning too. Next Sunday is the 120th day, by inclusive reckoning, since Sivan 6, Pentecost. The following Sunday is the Eve of Tabernacles, 120 days since the June 7 Orthodox Pentecost. Noah had a 120-year warning, then a 7-day warning. Therefore, 120 days from Sivan 6, is this Sunday. Seven more days would be Oct. 4.

Actually, 5758 (meaning "the season of Noah") seemed the most promising, but it did not happen in that year. Still, 1948 + 50 = 1998 on our calendar, and we are actually still in Israel's Jubilee Year till Nisan 1, 5759. That would not even take us to Pentecost, either.

I especially can't explain away the 480th year of the modern parallels, but that was 5758. In the 480th year of old, the son of David began to raise up the temple. That fits us so well, as the temple of the Holy Spirit as well as the temple in Israel.

Wait a minute. Could the first year of the parallels begin with Oct. 31, 1517 and end Oct. 31, 1518? The former is when Martin Luther tacked his 95 theses on the church door in Wittenburg, Germany. This would make the 480th year begin Oct. 31, 1997 and end Oct. 31, 1998. Look what happens. Oct. 31 is 11 Cheshvan. Counting by inclusive reckoning, another seven days is 17 Cheshvan (Nov. 6, 1998).

Maybe 5758 kicked off the season of Noah. Maybe it was to just indicate the approach of this Cheshvan 17. You know, if the Rapture is to be in 1998, Cheshvan 17 (our Friday, Nov. 6, 1998) has a chance, but it is not on Sunday. The Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37). On Cheshvan 17, Noah entered the Ark, the door was closed and the rain came (Gen. 7:11-16). Christ comes as the rain too. He comes as the former rain (Hos. 6:3) that started Tishri 1. Winter is the rainy season.

Gen. 7:1 says, AND the LORD said unto Noah, COME thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in THIS GENERATION." This generation is also in the Fig Tree Parable of Mt. 24:32-34. The "doors" are even mentioned. There are definite tie-ins. Come is like "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1. All thy house is like "thou shalt be saved, and thy house" in Acts 16:31.

I hope it is soon. The future looks bleak otherwise. We must hang on to our "blessed hope." Stay ready. Maranatha.

Incoming Email

Connection between faith and the rapture? (Jim Bramlett):
I am reading Charles Capp's excellent book, End Time Events (Harrison House, 1997).

Capps makes many interesting points, one of which is in Chapter 8, "The Faith and Rapture Connection." He points out Enoch's rapture and its relation to Enoch's faith:

"BY FAITH Enoch was translated that he should not see death.... without FAITH it is impossible to please God, for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:5-6).

He goes on to say, "Although the rapture was not for Enoch's dispensation, God revealed it to him. I believe he was so completely captivated by it that he, through FAITH, experienced his own private rapture. Enoch proved that FAITH gives substance to that blessed hope. He also proved that FAITH is our evidence of the rapture that has not yet been seen in our day." {Bramlett note: FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of things HOPED FOR, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.}

Capps says, "It is significant that Hebrews 11:5-6 reveals Enoch's FAITH pleased God so much He translated him, and then emphatically states that without FAITH it is impossible to please God. Could this be implying that we must have FAITH in the blessed hope of the rapture to experience it?" (Emphasis supplied above.)

This idea has been suggested before, with the Scripture quoted, "...unto them THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28).

This gives cause for concern for those who reject the rapture, often with a condescending attitude and sometimes with anger and mockery. However, it also means that we should never be ashamed of, by FAITH, looking for "that blessed hope." Someday soon that faith, which is our substance and evidence, will find fulfillment in the glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

"Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.... For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith" (Hebrews 10:35-38. NKJV).

Maranatha, Jim

Incoming Email

Re: "You done good, Marilyn"
The SUBJECT line paraphrases what one of my children used to say too many years ago when one of his parents had done something particularly praiseworthy. (Who was training who?)

I've seen five souls accept the Lord as the direct result of your work. (Straight Gospel evangelizing, by the way) Fifty souls received a summary of your hypothesis, and who knows how the Lord will work in their lives henceforth. I'm the world's worst evangelist, by the way, but I'd do the same all over again, even knowing that Sunday was not the day. I hope that I can keep it up; it is the hardest thing I've ever done.

Beyond that, Marilyn, I regard your books as one of the great works of scholarship of the age. You weren't afraid to be wrong, and you've joined a very small but distinguished group, including my personal intellectual hero, Velikovsky.

I believe your hypothesis to be true and your methodology to be correct. Somewhere there must be a corruption of data and/or a misinterpretation. I say this despite disagreeing with you on a number of secondary issues.

We know our calendar to be corrupt in at least its lack of a year zero. Could the Hebrew calendar have strayed off track at some point? For example, on the long day of Joshua, the sun stood still. According to Velikovsky, this was mirrored all over the world; he cites a particularly fascinating account by the Chinese Emperor at that time. Velikovsky pegs this day as one of the times that the earth reversed its polarity, turning end for end so that North became South and vice versa. Since the sun appeared to stand still in Israel, the axis of rotation must have passed through Israel. And, of course, Velikovsky found historical evidence at the opposite point on the globe where the night was proportionately extended, although I cannot recall where that was. Is time "owed" to the Hebrew calendar?

Biblical chronology may be the other area to suspect. You place all your eggs in one basket, so to speak, with [I can't remember the name]. Again, I'm forced to fall back on Velikovsky, whose chronology sufficed to enrage the world. I don't know enough to conclude anything, but it might be a worthy area of re-consideration.

Marilyn, I hope you keep going. Please keep your web site open, if you can....

My reply

Sorry to take so long to answer....

> I've seen five souls accept the Lord as the direct result of your work.

Praise the Lord. That is so wonderful. Nothing matters more. Those are your crowns. Glad I could be of some help along the way.

> Beyond that, Marilyn, I regard your books as one of the great works of
> scholarship of the age. You weren't afraid to be wrong, and you've
> joined a very small but distinguished group, including my personal
> intellectual hero, Velikovsky.

I certainly enjoyed reading Velikovsky. I considered him right on some things and wrong on others. He was right about Venus being hot.

> Is time "owed" to the Hebrew calendar?

If it was off by a day, that would not make a great difference.

> Biblical chronology may be the other area to suspect. You place all your
> eggs in one basket, so to speak, with [I can't remember the name].

The name is Martin Anstey, who wrote "The Romance of Bible Chronology." There are two volumes, one of which is a year by year chart of time. The other is the comprehensive explanation behind each date. You are right, I went along with his research, but he is the only one I could find in years of searching that I could agree with. Also, David L. Cooper, in his "Messiah: His First Coming Scheduled," examined Anstey's work in great detail. He said that he found a few minor mistakes, but nothing that would affect the outcome. Besides that, Dr. Arnold D. Ehlert, the then head librarian of BIOLA (Bible Institute of Los Angeles) library, wrote his "Syllabus of Bible Chronology" in which he upheld Anstey's work and explained in detail how to break the Gordian Knots of Bible Chronology.

> it might be a worthy area of re-consideration.
I will be 70 years old this December. I do not have enough time to spend the years on Bible Chronology that I did in the past. I must answer email and take care of my husband who has recently had open heart surgery. I used to live in La Mirada, within walking distance of BIOLA. I now live at least 50 miles away. There is no way I can redo it, and what would I find that I did not find then? I went over and over everything I could turn up at that time and again later on.

> Marilyn, I hope you keep going. Please keep your web site open, if you can.

Thanks. I will as long as it is possible to do so.

His reply

Thank you for your completely unanticipated reply to my e-mail "You done good, Marilyn". As usual, you've given me much to ponder.

I'm returning to an old subject here, that being Ron Wyatt. First, his videos can be viewed on Prophezine, http://www.prophezine.com/index.shtml

He builds  compelling cases for the crossing, Noah's Ark, and Mount Sinai. His case for the Ark of the Covenant, as I, you, and a number of others have commented, is less compelling. Yet, he was there and we weren't. There is no doubting this man's Christianity and sincerity. The "relics" of Noah's ark, particularly the wrought iron rivets three inches in diameter, are amazing. (I speak as the former owner of an eighty year-old boat which I restored. Wrought iron fastenings endure indefinitely.) I truly wish he'd thought to bring a naval architect with a historical bent to examine the site.

Anyway, Grant Jeffrey respectfully dismisses Mr. Wyatt's claims to the Ark of the Covenant on page 150 of his "new" (97/98) Armageddon. Of course, Mr. Jeffrey does have a vested interest, if you will, in his own theory, which is equally fascinating.

Mr. Wyatt's claims for the crossing and Mount Sinai are confirmed, in my opinion, by a new book by Howard Blum: The Gold of Exodus. To make a long story short, two adventurers, Bob Cornuke and Larry Williams, after receiving a map from one of Wyatt's original party, set about to retrace his route in the hope of finding the gold left behind at Sinai by the Hebrews. Bob Cornuke became a born again Christian in the process and Mr. Williams is at least re-thinking his spiritual position. Anyway, while having little friendship for Mr. Wyatt, they did find exactly what Mr. Wyatt claims is there. Great book! Read it if you get a chance.

So, I have no idea of what conclusion I'm circling around here is, or if I even have one. Wyatt has certainly found something in each of his adventures, and if he has found what he claims to have found, political necessity would force the involved nations to lie, prevaricate and cover-up. Your's in Christ

My reply

Hi: Thanks for the thought, but I use an old Mac and can't read cards or listen to video.

I have reservations about Ron Wyatt, but wouldn't want to say that he didn't find what he said he found. I just need more information to be sure. I understand the the necessity of a cover-up by Israel.

Incoming Email

Thank you so much. I am glad the spirit is with you and you listened when you were writing. I hope that one day in my life time the book of Revelations will be at least halfway revieled. Thank you again Mrs. Agee. I hope you write another one.

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Updated 9-26-98