Pro and Con 188, Uploaded 10-3-98, PM

Incoming Email

It appears to me that God defends the territory of Israel twice in the future. Once when he stops the tribulation period and begins the kingdom age with Jesus to rule for 1,000 years, the second when he immediately ends a rebellion of Satan leading certain nations at the end of the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:7-9). I have always been aware that any prophecy that we think may be pointing to the events just before the tribulation period could actually be addressing the events at the end of the reign.

Have you ever sorted it out? What do you think?

I have never really worried about what happens after the rapture, always thought I'd get it first hand in heaven. With the obvious dates (your Penticost and my Sept. 20 gone this year)...and it just had to be 1998- had to be!

I'm beginning to wonder if the mid or post trib folks may be right? If we had been raptured at either date this year, world events are happening now almost exactly the may I thought they would going into the tribulation. I'm not losing faith, I'm just ready to get this show on the road and if it takes living the last seven "the hard way" so be it. Thirteen (13%) percent of the land in exchange for peace- that's an interesting percentage? What about a seven year treaty to work out the details of the exchange-why not?

My reply

You are right about the Lord defending Israel both times.

> I have always been aware that any prophecy that we think may be pointing to
> the events just before the tribulation period could actually be addressing the
> events at the end of the reign. Have you ever sorted it out? What do you think?

Yes. I have sorted it out and written a book explaining The Revelation. It's called Revelations 2000.

Daniel 9:24 shows that the end of the Tribulation seals up the vision and prophecy. Almost all prophecies have to do with from now to the end of Armageddon. A few tidbits past that are all we have. They mainly have to do with Satan being loosed, the gathering for a battle, fire coming down to devour them, and the Great White Throne Judgment.

> I have never really worried about what happens after the rapture

Just about everything after Rev. 4:1 happens after the Rapture. In the last chapter is some reference to the Rapture. It is "at hand" in verse 10, and Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5).

> With the obvious dates (your Penticost and my Sept. 20 gone this year)

I think I missed the Rapture by one year. So did Jack Langford, and for the same reason. Jack, Pastor Riley and myself all failed to remember that in May, 1998, the final year STARTED, not ended. Details are somewhere on the last four Pro and Cons. I am looking for Penticost, 1999. Sivan 6 is Fri., May 21. I had thought that Rev. 1:10 indicated it would be on Sunday, so maybe it could be Sunday, May 23.

Jesus was raised up after three days. Maybe we will be too. Read over the things on those Pro and Cons and see what you think.

Pastor Riley thinks the wake-up call in 1988 was foretold in Habbukuk. Maybe the wake-up call last Pentecost was planned too. Look at Song of Solomon. In 2:10-14, it sounds like the Rapture. Then in 3:1-4, it says, "BY night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth: I SOUGHT HIM, BUT I FOUND HIM NOT. I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? IT WAS BUT A LITTLE THAT I PASSED FROM THEM, BUT I FOUND HIM whom my soul loveth."

Does this tie in with Mt. 25:1-6: "THEN shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and WENT FORTH to meet the bridegroom....They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom TARRIED, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM."

First, they went forth, then he tarried, then he came.

Because of Song of Solomon 2:11 saying that the winter is past and the rain over and gone, I think the three feasts of Tishri (the former rain) and the three feasts of Nisan (the latter rain) are eliminated. Only Pentecost is left.

The Israelites were at Sinai at Pentecost. There the Lord told them to wash their clothes and in three days the Lord would come down. There was a bit of a delay at that time to give them a chance to be wearing clean garments. Is the Bridegroom giving us this time so we will be wearing white garments? Noah had a seven-day warning before the door to the Ark was closed by the Lord. I doubt that they loaded a bunch of dirty clothes.

In Rev. 2:21, Jesus said to the churches, "I gave her space to repent..." We seem to be in this space and had better take advantage of it. The door is open, but will shut soon. We have some time to get right with God and earn some rewards.

Incoming Email

Fatal "WWJD" necklace (Jim Bramlett)
Do you know anyone who is wearing a popular metal "What Would Jesus Do" necklace? See below news item. Please pass this to Christian friends and lists.

"What Would Jesus Do" necklace blamed for boy's death

Weekend News Today, Source: New York Times

Wed Sep 30, 1998 -- Tennessee health officials have issued a warning about certain imported jewelry, saying a 2-year-old boy's lead poisoning was apparently caused by a ``What Would Jesus Do'' necklace, AP reported. The state Department of Health issued the alert after the boy was found to have extremely high levels of lead in his blood. He had worn one of the popular necklaces for several weeks.

Tests on ``WWJD'' and other inexpensive imported necklaces from China, Korea and Taiwan found they had dangerous levels of nickel and lead, said Dr. Fredia Wadley, the state health officer. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is investigating and could issue a recall of all the imported jewelry.

Incoming Email

Thank you very much for your response and the info you sent me. I was just really curious because i am aware that the Bible has warned us about false prophecies and false prophets. I am still reading books on prophecy but now i choose the ones that are based on the Scriptures.

I hope you don't mind if i ask you questions again, because i have many. Honestly, as to spiritual growth, i consider myself only a baby and i still have a lot to learn. Reading your book has developed in me an interest for the end-time events. Now what i'm trying to do is understand the events happening now through Biblical prophecies i've learned in your book.

I have a question about Israel. As you may know, there are peace negotiations now in the region and parts of Israel's occupied territory is on the line. What do you think would be the outcome of these events? Also, the info you sent me mentions about the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Can you please give me information about this also?

My sincerest gratitudes again for everything. God bless.

My reply

Sure, you can ask me questions.

The Oslo Accords seem to be the forerunner of the seven-year peace covenant that will be confirmed at the beginning of the Tribulation.

Rev. 11:1 shows that the Temple is there at the beginning of the Tribulation. I think that is in 2001, so we are nearing the time of its construction. Maybe after we, the temple of the Holy Spirit, are caught up in the Rapture, the earthly temple will be raised up.

Incoming Email

From Finland:
In P/C you say "somebody told me that Orthodox Pentecost is allways on Sunday". I may have a poor memory about names, but I definitely remember who it was as she demanded her name and e-mail to be mentioned. It was Sher Ann Bond. There was more in her e-mail ( see the P/C from June )

I must tell one or two more things about this. I did not feel anything very particular at any of the nights of expectation last summer - except for one very particular moment. This was at the night of the Orthodox Pentecost. At midnight; nothing particular. Then I activated alarm clock for the moment of Saturn“s rise. As I woke up instantly I felt a `FORCE“ so strong that I could“n almost think of anything. I thought this is it, now it is happening! But it did not. Later I could not understand what it meant, and if it was a sign, a sign of what? So it kind of talked to me too as in one of CAP“s words there was something like " putting alarm clock on again and waking up from sleep again". Maybe it was a sign that the right time is Orthodox Pentecost as Saturn rises over Jerusalem! ( I can be wrong, but I can“t think of any other sensible explanation - the “force“ was very strong )

My reply

Thanks for reminding me of Sher Bond's email. I found it on P & C 126....Here is what she said:

DRESS REHEARSAL ( (Sher bond), Tue 10:24 AM)
Marilyn,you said Revelations was like a play....Looks like we just had dress rehearsal.

(Note: Another told me *ahead of time* that it would be a "dress rehearsal.")

How appropriate for TRUE PENTECOST TO FALL ON THE GREEK ORTHODOX DATE, THE TRUE BIBLICAL DATE. COUNTING OF THE OMER ACCORDING TO LEVITICUS 23, NOT MANS TRADITION...And the last 7 words of the bible have a Gematria of 8991 (or), right to left =1998)

Marilyn, with God as my witness, I was only going to Put "TRUE PENTECOST" in caps above, but I could not get my typewriter out of caps till I completed my thought.....God Is In Control. Glad to be in the family. Please sign my name to your website as I have been blessed to have found you. Sherry Ann Bond (Sher A. Bond) Paris, Texas.

PS. Marilyn, yesterday I wrote you that I was typing TRUE PENTECOST and then I could not get my keyboard out of caps...I could not even delete what I had typed...until I finished with NOT MANS TRADITION, now I realize that when I typed LEVITICUS 23 (in all caps) the 23 should have read @# but it printed out fine! Also as I was typing and trying to erase/delete the caps while hitting my delete key the numbers 07 appeared on screen....I was able to hit delete again and erase that....Wow.

Waiting And Watching And Praying.
Lately, someone else sent me a URL to check on the "Orthodox" date of Easter and some other feasts. It turned out to be the Eastern Orthodox Church calendar. Some of the feasts were for Mary. They had April 11 for Easter and May 30, 1999 for the Orthodox Pentecost. I don't think I want to put a lot of stock in that. Surely, the Talmudic Jewish Calendar is a better bet for the truth. I just went back to Lev. 23:15,16. I'm figuring just like it indicated there (50 days starting from the Sunday after Passover, Nisan 18, April 4, 1999. That comes out May 23. As far as I can determine, that should be true Pentecost.

> Maybe it was a sign that the right time is Orthodox Pentecost
> as Saturn rises over Jerusalem!

Thanks for telling us about your personal experience. That's neat. I hope it is a sign. That sure would be an appropriate time. And, you know, you are the first one that suggested that the Rapture might be when Saturn rises. Maybe this is why this experience happened to you. It is possible. Can you tell us what time Saturn rises on next May 23 at Jerusalem?

His reply

Saturn rises about 4.36 (AM) over Jerusalem horizon. (Daylight saving time) BTW news tell that world population is soon 6 billion, Israeli pop. 6 million, and maybe Jerusalem“s population will be 6 hundred thousand soon? Maybe the number of man is about to be full?

My reply

Just about full for this phase. Thanks for the time of Saturn's rising as a morning star. Jesus told the overcomers of the churches, "I will give him the morning star" (Rev. 2:28). It would be so neat to be caught up to the morning star just as it becomes visible.

Incoming Email

Someone phoned and asked me to post my opinion of John Tng's (2 Oct) posting on "The SONG of Songs" (5 Doves Web site).

My reply

Rene wrote:
>> Personally -I hope Ron Reese and Charles Ryalls and Bob Ware and John Zachary, etc. are ALL correct about 1998 being our Rapture year! I just can't seem to co-incide the Song of Solomon with a FALL rapture - unless the Song of Solomon is NOT a reference to the Church at all---? But we are the Lamb's "Beloved"! <<

***From Marilyn: I hope 1998 is it too, but am afraid we will have to wait until spring.

John wrote: I just read through the Song of Solomon again....I am amazed how similar it is to our current longing for the LORD's return. The Shulamite (Bride) is longing to see her Beloved (Jesus) to bring her into His ChamberS (1:4) "He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love." (Song 2:4) We are going to HIS HOUSE for a FEAST! The "banqueting house" is another way of saying the "Feasting Tabernacle".

***I think the Marriage of the Lamb and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb are both on Christ's Coronation Day, Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007), the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the Millennium, not on Tabernacles. The Feast of Tabernacles seems to have to do with the Jewish remnant that are accepted on the Day of atonement and live on into the Millennium on Earth.

I liked the last bit of Charles' most recent letter -- "As Pastor Riley said in this months news letter, there is a dividing between the bride and those who are the wedding guests. That difference is determined by our faith." I realized that recently. One should bear this in mind when reading wedding-related parables. For one thing, the Bride could not be a wedding guest. To insist that she is, is an improper association. She is the "invitor" and her guests are the "invitees". She is doing the inviting together with the Bridegroom, and it makes no sense for her to be invited to her own wedding. Another thing is, the wedding supper is not the wedding. It is the feast after the wedding ceremony. Again, if you are INVITED to the wedding supper, count yourself blessed. But the Groom and the Bride are the ones throwing the wedding supper! There is no sense inviting the Bride to the supper too since She is the reason for the supper.

***I agree. there a FALL rapture in the Song? That the Shulamite typifies the Bride and the Beloved typifies Jesus is without question. The whole song is intoxicated with LOVE. Wedding is IN THE AIR (in more ways than one). The Shulamite has been waiting in great excitement and anticipation. For what? For a SPRING RAPTURE! I agree wholeheartedly about a spring rapture hidden in the Song. But wait a minute. The principal Scriptures supporting this come from Chapter 2, verses 8 to 15 (correct me if I am wrong). I should point out there are 8 chapters in this Song. I should also point out the Shulamite WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED when the KING (Solomon) didn't show up the first time. It seemed He NEARLY DID. But when the Shulamite OPENED THE DOOR (the KING was KNOCKING. KNOCK. KNOCK. KNOCK), He was GONE. At that stage, the Shulamite was heart-broken. She was love-sick.

"5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me, my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the night."

"5:6 I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him; I called him, but he gave me no answer."

"5:8 I charge you, O daughters of Jerusalem, if ye find my beloved, that ye tell him, that I am sick of love."

A spring rapture greatly anticipated in Chapter 2 ended up in great disappointment in Chapter 5. All is not lost, however. The Song did not end in sadness and unhappiness. The Shulamite was still HOPEFULL and EXPECTANT. Finally, the Rapture takes place in Chapter 6.


6:11 I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded. 6:12 Or ever I was aware, my soul made me like the CHARIOTS of Amminadib.


6:13 RETURN, RETURN, O Shulamite; RETURN, RETURN, that we may look upon thee."

This time is for real.

***To return where? T0 Heaven? or FROM Heaven? Has she been to Heaven yet? How can this be the same as "Come up hither"? It doesn't say Rapture to me. "Return" is "shuwb," and can be translated "turn."

Jesus and His friends are calling the Bride to RETURN 4 times! Again, to be consistent, "His friends" cannot be the Bride. They are the friends of the Groom and the Bride. They are not the ones getting married. Although the Bride is also a special FRIEND of the Bridegroom (John 15:15), but She is not "His Friends" here.

After these Scriptures, the Beloved and the Shulamite poured out their love towards each other unabashed. There was no more disappointment and they lived happily ever after or they rode off their clouds into the sunset.

The scenario I painted above, based on the Song of Solomon, indicated a possibility of a FALL rapture.

***I can't see it.

Oops. What I mean is, at least it does not exclude the possibility of a FALL rapture. Why? Because the expected Spring Rapture ended in disappointment. Now, let me show the possibility of a FALL rapture hidden in the Song. First, let us notice the Scriptures of the Spring Rapture.

"2:10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. 11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; 12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; 13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the VINES with the TENDER GRAPE give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

The GRAPES are still TENDER in SPRING. When did the Beloved and His friends call the Bride to RETURN? Was it at a time when the grapes were still tender? No. Look at the RETURN Scriptures again -- " 6:11 I went down into the garden of nuts to to see the FRUITS of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded." This must be TABERNACLES!

Jesus connects FRUIT with VINE. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this FRUIT of the VINE, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." Make sense. GRAPES are FRUIT. In the great "I AM" series in the gospel of John, one of the great "I AM"s is:

"John 15:1 I am the TRUE VINE, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not FRUIT he taketh away: and every branch that beareth FRUIT, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more FRUIT."

Jesus hinted He will come again for the disciples during the TABERNACLES by saying He will drink from the CUP again with the disciples in the Father's kingdom.

***Jesus probably will make water wine at the Marriage of the Lamb. Remember Cana of Galilee, which means circle, i.e., a sphere? Anyway, there are grapes in both spring and fall. There were grapes in Israel when they went in to spy out the land at the time of the firstripe grapes. That was before they were at Sinai on Pentecost. The vintage starts in Elul, before the Feast of Trumpets.

***There are two Raptures. Hosea 2:9 says, "Therefore will I return, and take away my corn (grain, i.e., wheat) in the time thereof (Pre-Trib Rapture in the spring), AND my wine in the season thereof" (The Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets).

***In Song of Solomon, the Shulamite represents "As it were the company of TWO ARMIES" (Song 6:13). This is 7:1 in the Confraternity. It says, "Turn, turn, O Sulamite, turn, turn, that we may look at you! Why would you look at the Sulamite as at the DANCE OF THE TWO COMPANIES." Green's Interlinear has "What will you see in the Shulamite! As it were the DANCE of TWO ARMIES." In the Song, the story of both Raptures can be seen. We have to figure out which one is being referred to in various parts of this "dance of two armies."

The following associations may help:

Spring Feasts: GRAIN
Fall Feasts: GRAPE

...Spring feasts are primarily grain harvests and Fall feasts are primarily FRUIT harvests that include OLIVE, VINE, PROMEGRANATES....

The FRUIT of the Spirit is also the LIGHT or our GOOD WORKS. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." That is why we need to BEAR FRUIT or DO GOOD WORKS or we will be cut off from the VINE.

...The grapes are tender in the spring. The Bride yearns for her Beloved in the spring. The VINE flourishes in the FALL when Jesus calls His Bride home. The proof is in the FRUIT OF THE VINE. Jesus promised He will drink it anew in His Father's kingdom -- a veiled promise of a fall rapture when grapes are harvested during Tabernacles. There are many other hints here and there in the Song of Solomon that are centered on the theme of Tabernacles.

***I don't think either Rapture is on Tabernacles. I think the first one is in the spring, the second just prior to the seven trumpet judgments on the Feast of Trumpets. The elect cannot go through the time of God's Wrath.

...King Solomon in the Song typifies the LORD Jesus. Jesus is the Anointed One. Could it be Jesus will be crowned KING of Kings on His wedding day? We know immediately after the wedding supper, He will come as the KING of Kings and LORD of Lords....

***I agree that "Jesus will be crowned KING of Kings on His wedding day." I think that is the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007, fourteen years from the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993. The years between these two events are probably the seven good years and the seven bad years, as in the days when Joseph took up a fifth of the corn (grain) in the seven good years. We are wheat. Therefore, we must be taken up in the seven good years (1993 + 7 = 2000). The second that 2000 hits, we have the Y2K problem. I expect to be GONE before that--on Pentecost, 1999. I also think that there are seven months (Ezek. 39:12) between Rapture II and the Second Advent (Ezek. 29:17,21).

Let us summarize. It is possible to see a FALL rapture in the Song. The main evidence is: GRAPES are tender in Spring. Jesus calls His Bride to return when the VINE flourishes in the FALL....

Maranatha, John

--- ***I think the size of the bunch of grapes the Israelites carried out of Canaan just before (oops! make that "after") they were at Sinai (i.e., Heaven) on Pentecost shows that the vine flourished also in the spring (make that "summer"). It took two men to carry that one bunch of grapes.

***Notice that the Shulamite's two breasts represent the "two armies." Song 7:7-9 says, "This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes...also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine...And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, CAUSING THE LIPS OF THOSE THAT ARE ASLEEP TO SPEAK." Here we see in the Shulamite "As it were the company of TWO ARMIES" (Song 6:13). I think the first army is gathered near the time of the firstripe grapes (Pentecost), the second army at the time of the vintage (Trumpets). ***...At the time of the first Rapture, there should be ripe figs, but the fig tree (Israel, nationally) is still barren (Lu. 13:6-9). There are, however, some green figs among the people. They are beginning to wake up. Their main harvest will be at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, but there will also be Israelites among those taken up in the spring harvest. In the Church, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are all one bunch of grapes attached to the vine (Christ).

***In Song of Solomon 2:12, in the Septuagint, we find that "The flowers are seen in the land; the TIME OF PRUNING has arrived."

***This ties in with John 15:1,2: "I AM the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away." This is why Jesus Christ is seen with "a sharp twoedged sword" (Rev. 1:16) at the Preview of the Rapture. The wise Philadelphian virgins are taken, the foolish lukewarm Laodicean virgins are cut off, or spewed out of his mouth. They do not show fruit. The Philadelphians get crowns. Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Maranatha

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-3-98