Pro and Con 191, Uploaded 10-7-98, PM
Incoming Email FROM CAPS...Thanks for your infor. re the book of Numbers. I think that the fact that in Numbers 13:23 that it says "...they also brought SOME pomegranates and figs..." indicates that the main fruit that was Fully ripe was the grape. Only "SOME" pomegranates. All my infor. on the PG(POMEGRANATES) show it is first ripe around OCTOBER 15. Backing off 40 days from that would put the entering to spy out the land around SEPT. 5TH. This seems the most logical to me. It would be at the time of the Firstripe grapes---i.e. when they are first truly ripe. I don't know anyway to conclude that the PG IS RIPE before this time. The Revell bible dictionary says the PG is ripe around mid- October. I called the local Heb and talked to the produce mgr. He said the same thing. I am also attaching some other infor. from the 5 Doves site re the PG:
Enclosed is some information on the Pomegranate, which I obtained from our encyclopedia:
The pomegranate, Punica granatum, a deciduous tree or large shrub and its fruit, originated in the Middle East and has long been cultivated throughout the Mediterranean world. The plant bears white or bright red flowers followed by seedy, red fruits that may reach 13 cm (5 in) in diameter. Thriving on a wide range of soils in warm climates, the pomegranate produces excellent fruit under semiarid conditions, as in parts of California and Israel....
A bit more information - - -
The pomegranate is a popular fruit in Dalmatia, where my parents were from. We have four trees here and they are about 10 to 15 feet in height. They are best when fully ripened and real sweet. The seeds are small and soft and are eaten along with the slightly larger fruit, each which is smaller than a pea red in color and translucent - - and all clustered together in the skin of the pomegranate.
OURS ARE STILL GREEN AND WON'T BE READY FOR ANOTHER FEW WEEKS. We are located in the Sacramento Valley. And that is a quick story about the pomegranates.THIS WAS DATED OCTOBER 5TH. Second report is below: I would like to tell Rene that we have a pomegranate tree in our back yard here in Northern California. It's a tradition at our house to have an apple and pomegranate salad for Thanksgiving dinner. The round tough skinned fruit is full of seeds that are juicy and tart but mixed with chopped apples, raisins, nuts and whipped cream dressing, they are great! Pomegranates are still a bit immature at this time of year but within another month some will burst open on the tree and then we'll know they are ready. Occassionaly there is one or two that survive until Christmas.THIS WAS ALSO DATED OCT. 5TH.
Even so, I tend to agree with you that the timing of S.o.S. ch. 2 seems to be in the Spring. It is impossible to be totally sure. What does this indicate? Possibly the timing of the Jewish wedding ceremony would help. The BETROTHAL took place before the actual union. The betrothal was sealed by drinking a CUP OF WINE. The groom then left. Is this what we are seeing in the S.of S.? The actual "union" verses are indicated in ch.4:16--5:1; ch. 6:11-12; and 7:12. In the context of all of these verses it is a Fall setting.....North wind and South wind at the same time..i.e. Fall...and the POMEGRANATES ripening. I would not therefore rule out the Fall as a definite possibility for the Rapture. More to come shortly on this subject. GOD BLESS.
My reply Sacramento is a more northern latitude than Israel, which is near ours here in Los Angeles, CA. This changes the time that crops ripen. Heat and cold make a difference also.
I have a book, "Facts About Israel" printed by Israel. On pages 12 and 14, it says, "The country is rich in medicinal herbs and wild flowers. As early as December, even in the mountains, the hyacinth, crocus and narcissus are followed by anemones, tulips, cyclamen, iris, daisies and many more...Fruit trees are already in bloom in January, and from January to April the slopes of the Carmel range are a riot of colour and perfume." The profusion of flowers and blooming of fruit trees is earlier than I thought.
The Rapture is not the same as the Marriage of the Lamb. I think the marriage is on Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007), Coronation Day and Jesus' birthday. It is also the day of Rapture II. That is about a week before the beginning of autumn.
To me, fall is the time of the former rain. It starts Tishri 1. If the rain is over and gone, it must be the latter rain of Nisan. Both the feasts of Tishri and the feasts of Nisan are in times of rain. Since winter is the rainy season, actually, the time of rain starts Tishri 1 and ends Nisan 30. Of the seven feasts, ONLY Pentecost is after the rain is over and gone. We can't say that of the feasts of Tishri or those of Nisan.
Therefore, IF Song of Solomon 2:10-14 is talking about the Rapture, I can't see any other feast indicated but Pentecost. The two loaves waved on Pentecost suggest a double fulfillment. The fact that the corners of the field are not reaped suggests the Laodiceans, who are left behind. The beginning of wheat harvest suggests reaping the church. The first of the firstfruits does too. Bringing the sons into the house of God on Pentecost fits. Going up to Jerusalem fits. What doesn't fit?
In referring to Pentecost, Neh. 10:35,36,37 says, "And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of ALL FRUIT OF ALL TREES, year by year, unto the house of the LORD: Also the FIRSTBORN OF OUR SONS...and the FRUIT OF ALL MANNER OF TREES."
De. 26:2 says, "That thou shalt take of the FIRST OF ALL THE FRUIT of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt GO unto THE PLACE (the place Jesus is preparing for us in Heaven, Jn. 14:2) which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there."
Incoming Email I am writing on the same subject matter as before and perhaps you have seen various angles on this with treaty negotiations; etc. Your last pro/con 189 indicates the efforts the Pope is making in all these things with Israel and the Arabs with negotiations. The point I wish to make here and hopefully spread to those the Lord sees fit to discern the points I am making as valid is this; that we must look at the verses which speak of the world looking at "Peace; peace, when there is no peace" and the "snare which overtakes the whole world" (verses loosely translated) as corresponding events. The rapture is said to occur at a "time when you don't expect." It has been preached in the past perhaps through premature human understanding that some kind of war, or other disaster would bring our countries' downfall. Frankly, I never thought that this business with congress, the president; etc. would paralyze our countries' efforts both economically and politically and open the door wide open for world governmental control from Europe. But this picture is what appears to be the last stage of our nation before the ruler of the EU is able to come forth; seize the European situation with Kosovo and the Serbians; use war and peace initiatives simultaneously to "enforce the peace"; convince Muslim and Israeli powers that he is the one to confirm the covenant of peace in 1999; obtain full support because of the stance for peace from the Pope and other denominations with United Nations' committees and influences in various international vested interests and to become a world dictator. At this stage; we have to look at the Lord as our hope and our exceeding joy; and resist the LIE that humanity has the greatest good in human history about to occur; that which lies within the desires of all the desire for PEACE.
The church has to be in a way an "underground" movement at this time. The hypnotic frenzy controlled by demonic influences at this time will be stronger than ever; I am convinced. Fewer people than ever are going to be interested in hearing about "pie in the sky" and the rapture; it will seem as a "cop-out" compared to the need for an authoritative role of leadership in accomplishing the hopes and dreams of humanitarian efforts attempted to be foisted at first in the idealism of the 1960's in this country; and now bought by world governments at last at this crucial FINAL hour. This could very likely cause those who persecute and kill Christians around the world to really feel they are "doing God a favor" as the scripture forwarns; and for "all nations to hate (us) for His Name's sake." Truly, we cannot fight such spiritual battles through fleshy influences; and indeed the powers that be will cause radical movements to fall worldwide so that world governments are established ("he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.") The verses about "he who endures to the end will be saved" and "many will fall away from the faith" will undoubtably come to pass as never before as many who seem to have been true believers will pass over to the side of the enemy as their true nature is revealed. Undoubtably, many will quote the verse "blessed are the peacemakers" with the wrong interpretation. Israel also will accept "another coming in (Jesus') name" It is not utopia on earth which the Lord is referring to; it is TRUE, COMPLETE and EVERLASTING peace based on a converted heart with the life of the Holy Spirit on the inside. The Prince of Peace is NOT to be compromised for the Antichrist who is not only against all that Christ stands for but appears as a SUBSTITUTE for the true Christ by making promises to be the warrior; peacemaker and taker of the world by force imitating the authority of Christ but being the underlying cause for THE apostasy which all former apostasies are just shadows of the final one of greatest magnitude.
So I guess at this point I can say we just have to "watch" as the Lord tells us to do. My point would be that I feel the Lord is calling for a unique perspective as well on evangelism in this final hour. Rather than saying we are like those in Noah's family at this time; we have to look at Jesus' comments on "going out" and "compelling them to come in" (to the supper of the Lamb of God). To gather the lost sheep; even many who have not heard of or accepted Christ is the mission today I believe even in THIS country; we don't have to look around the world to accomplish much of this task; I believe that God is calling those right where they live TODAY to call those who represent every "language, tongue, tribe and nation" to bring those invitations out in their local cities, states and nations.
Well, enough said. I don't feel that I may need to say anything else until the Lord comes; unless of course He is going to tarry past that 40 year mark which we "arbitrarily" decide means the end of a generation because of the dual fulfillment of this prophecy between AD 33 and AD 70. If he is coming in the next year or so; the time is going to rip by so fast I feel as though I'm like hours from seeing Him in heaven. Adios!
My reply > what appears to be the last stage of our nation before the ruler of the EU is
> able to come forth
I doubt that the Beast is the ruler of the EU. I used to think that, but with further study, I think the Tribulation Pope will be elected secretary general of the united nations, and ten subsidiary kings will rule over ten divisions of the world government. Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (sounds like it could be the Pope), he is the head (the 7th head of the great red dragon, Rev. 12:3; 17:3); and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail."
Zech. 5:4 says, I will bring it (the curse, i.e., the asteroid) forth, saith the LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and it shall enter into the house of THE THIEF (the False Prophet, who steals the world church), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Tribulation Pope): and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof" (as in Rev. 18:21).
This Tribulation Pope seems to be the seventh head of the beast that rises up out of the sea (nations) in Rev. 13. He is a Roman but comes out of the nations, as the Pope does. And upon "his heads the name of blasphemy." This sounds like Pontifex Maximus. It was used for the high priest in the Mystery Religion of Babylon and is used by the Pope now.
They "worshipped the beast, saying Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?...and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb...If any man have an ear, let him hear" (Rev. 13:4-9).
Rev. 6:2 says, "behold a white horse: and he that sat on him (rides forth as a prince of peace, as the Pope does even now) had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer (from nikao, from which comes 'the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes,' Rev. 2:15)"
> to confirm the covenant of peace in 1999
I think it will be confirmed on the Feast of Weeks in 2001.
> Israel also will accept "another coming in (Jesus') name"
Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in HIS OWN NAME, him ye will receive" (John 5:43).
> God is calling those right where they live TODAY to call those who represent > every "language, tongue, tribe and nation" to bring those invitations out in > their local cities, states and nations.
You bet. Here is our chance to earn rewards in Heaven.
> fulfillment of this prophecy between AD 33 and AD 70
I think it is 30 AD + 40 = 70 AD. Jesus told the Prarisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION" (Mt. 23:36), and they did.
Incoming Email After thinking about the Fall fruits I began thinking about the order of the Feasts. As I was studying one thing led to another and I began to look into the battle at Jericho, which I believe is such a good picture of the rapture.
In Leviticus we see the Feasts listed with Passover as the first one. This is usually how we think of them also, seeing that Jesus fulfilled it first. It also is the first feast of the religious year. But I began to wonder about counting the feasts from the beginning of the civil year, that is when I saw the parallel with Joshua. I was thinking about the fact that Joshua went around Jericho 6 days [6 days = 6000 years], then on the seventh day they went around 7 times [7 times = 7 feasts]. In Joshua chapter 5 we read that the kept the Passover (vs. 10) then after that they ate the old corn of the land and the manna ceased, and following that it says that they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year. The fruit harvest (figs, olives, pomegranates, grapes) would have been in the summer and fall. So they would have went up to Jericho (chapter 6) sometime after Pentecost. That would let us count those days [feasts] starting at Trumpets and ending on the seventh day [seventh feast] at Pentecost. Does this make sense to you? Also, after Jericho was Israel's big defeat at Ai. This was the problem they had because of the lure of a certain Babylonish garment! Surely it is after the rapture that the "problem" with Mystery Babylon will occur.
Just some thoughts for you. Love you
My reply At the taking of Jericho (moon, month, i.e., symbolically the beginning of the Jewish month of Tishri in 2007), there were seven trumpets blown on the seventh day. They seem to represent the seven trumpet judgments on the first day of the seventh 1000-year day, the Millennium. The marching around Jericho seven times reminds me of the seventh year of the Tribulation. Jericho not only fell, as Babylon will fall, but the wall fell. On the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, "every wall shall fall to the ground" (Ezek. 38:20). At Jericho, Rahab was saved, and her house (family). I think that Rapture II takes place on Tishri 1 in 2007. They are saved so as by fire. As in the days of Lot, fire falls that same day.
Joshua (Jesus) won the battle that day, just as Jesus will win the battle for Israel, probably on Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007).
In Joshua 5:10-12, they literally "kept the PASSOVER on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the MORROW after the passover (Feast of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15), unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day. And the manna ceased on the MORROW (Feast of Firstfruits, Nisan 16) after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that YEAR."
They were in the plains of Jericho in the middle of Nisan. It seems to me that they took Jericho BEFORE Pentecost. It is 50 days after the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Why would they have delayed 50 days?
Incoming Email Re: Apology:
I must say I'm sorry for getting on your case about "the falling away" being the Rapture.
I have been praying and thinking about it and I believe you are right and I am wrong.
I looked over the email I sent you & it was harsh. Please forgive me.
I have noticed you are using the KJV more often however. That is good.
Again, sister, please forgive me.
My reply Thanks. Of course I forgive you. It takes a person with a lot of integrity to say, "I have been praying and thinking about it and I believe you are right and I am wrong." It shows also that you are really seeking the truth. We all have opinions. We all are human and can make mistakes. We should respect each other's opinions and discuss our differences in God's agape love. No one person knows it all. By sharing with each other, we can all benefit and grow in grace and understanding.
Shalom and may all God's wonderful blessings be showered on you.
Incoming Email Thank you for responding to my letter to you. I appreciate the time you have put into setting the record straight. After reading your letter, I would have to agree with you with what you wrote. You helped me to understand that watching for Jesus is much more than things that have already occurred, such as the increases in diseases, knowledge, plagues, earty quakes, etc. It's also watching for certain political processes to take place as well. I guess I have been watching the increases in the diseases, etc because those are things that I understand. Political analysis has not been one of my strong points. I have always found politics booring, however; I realize now that keeping an eye on the political arena is where "keeping an eye on the ball" really fits in. As far as an exact date of Jesus' return, that is one area that I really need to work on. When you have been told all your life NO ONE KNOWS...ETC. it's hard to put a bad habit to sleep. I will keep an open mind and will read your words of wisdom until He comes. I do believe that His second coming will be in my life time. Possibly within the next 5-10 years, but there again, that is my opinion. However, The more I read, the more I am finding out that many of us who are Watching for Jesus believe the same thing. I am hoping to hear from you again. You have inspired me to look closer at the polital rehlm of things when it comes to Jesus' second coming. Again, thank you. And may GOD BLESS YOU FOR YOUR WORK. YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST
My reply Thanks for your kind words.
As I said before, the main thing we were to watch for was the Sign of the End of the Age. I think that was the Six-Day War of 1967. In that war, Israel grew leaves, Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and the West Bank, fulfilling the Fig Tree Parable of Mt. 24:32-34. In verse 34, Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
To me, "This generation" is 40 years. Not only did Israel wander in the wilderness 40 years while one generation died off, in 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did--40 years later, in 70 AD.
Therefore, I expect this 40-year generation to end in 2007 (1967 + 40 = 2007). There are other scriptures that indicate that the millennial Day of the Lord will begin on the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3). The Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1 in 2007 plus the seven months that Israel will bury the dead (Ezek. 39:12) after Christ saves Israel from the army under Gog is Nisan 1, 5768 (a Jewish leap year), our April 6, 2008, the anniversary of the Crucifixion. I believe this is the day of the Second Advent.
Incoming Email "Praise and Thanksgiving"
Greetings to all in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. I'm a first time writer, long time reader and want to express my gratitude to each and every one of you for the faith and love, both for each other, and for God that is found on this site. May the Holy One bless you and keep you all the days of your lives.
I'm writing to add one more to the number of believers who have a witness in their spirit that our times as we know them are drawing to a close and the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is near. For what it's worth ( it's offered in love ) here is my perspective on some recent 5 Doves postings.
Whether the calculations are exactly right, or the star's alignments, or the calendar's are right on isn't the sum total of what's going on here. These are the signs of the times. I don't remember Jesus ever rebuking anyone for error about exactly what day it was, (please correct me if I'm wrong) but he did have something pointed to say about those who did not know the signs.
It's like the old story of the man who lived out in the country when a fierce rain storm came. Being a believer he began to call upon the Lord for protection. After a while, the road leading to his house was washed away and a neighbor came by in his 4-wheel drive pickup truck and offered him a ride to shelter. The man replied" No thanks I have prayed to the Lord" The rain continued and as it reached a level of several feet inside his house a small rescue boat came by and offered him a ride to shelter. The man again replied, "No thanks I have prayed to the Lord". The floodwater continues and reaches almost to roof level. The man is now stranded on top of his roof when a police helicopter looking for flood victims approaches and offers him a ride to safety. For the final time, the man says, "No thanks, I have prayed to the Lord". Shortly thereafter, the flood carries the man away.
After his arrival in heaven, the man asks the Lord why did he not answer his prayers when the flood came? To which the Lord replies, "Why didn't you use the truck, boat or helicopter I sent for you?"
I can imagine some believers talking about the days just ahead of us saying something similar to the Lord upon their delayed arrival in heaven. "Lord, why didn't you warn us?" To which the Lord might respond, " Did you not know of the wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, floods, men who are only lover's of themselves, false prophets and false doctrines? And did you not hear the words of my student's of scripture, the words of my student's of the heavens, the words of my dreamers, the words of my people of visions, the words of my prophets, the words of my angels, the words of the Holy Spirit to your spirit? Did you not hear? Did you not watch?"
Very practically speaking, we are all in our last days. I'd just as soon spend them in praise and thanksgiving, listening and watching. Even so, Come Lord.
Incoming Email I rejoice in spirit for your article "2 Raptures". I have always felt that Philadelphia and Laodicea were in the same age but two different companies of believers. I am glad you pointed out the Feast to show the typology. I will be doing some more study in this area. Thanks again!
Incoming Email Dear precious sister in the Lord,
We too have been anxiously and eagerly looking forward to the rapture on 20thSeptember, unfortunately it did not happen. We believe the Lord's coming is nigh, and very much so. You may have received plenty cynical sort of emails from all over. We understand the efforts you put in. Surely the Lord will guide you. Take courage and be of good cheer - just in case you are disappointed; hope you are not.
We will be glad to hear from you.
We pray for you and for the work you do.
In Jesus love. Your Brother in Christ Jesus
My reply I really hoped the Rapture would be then, but was not convinced it would be. I think I just forgot that the 480th year of the Modern Parallels was a year and not a day. I probably missed by one year. I am expecting it next Pentecost.
I got my negative emails after last Pentecost rolled by. After awhile, that died down. The ones that pay attention to Scripture have sent their love. That is the way Christians should deal with one another. None of us are God. Humans can and do make mistakes. None are immune. Some made a mistake by the hateful words that flowed from their fingertips. I pray for the Lord to forgive them. I certainly do. Some have apologized.
Don't worry about me spiritually. I am strong and firmly rooted in the Lord. However, I wake up in pain every day. I do appreciate your prayers for me and for my husband, Ed, who had open-heart surgery two months ago. He woke up with a cold today, has been snoozing most of the time and is miserable when awake.
We just got a call back from his doctor. He has an appointment next Tuesday for an evaluation. Next comes a monitored treadmill test. After that they will put him in Rehab to exercise to his capability and regain his strength. And, it is covered by our SCAN HMO, praise the Lord.
Pro and Con 192   Or Return
Contact me for more information at: email@example.com
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960
© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee