Pro and Con 193, Uploaded 10-10-98, PM

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I have a few questions. my name is ----- (I am a girl) I am 16 years old. I have been brought up in a religeous enviroment & I have never heard of anyone teaching about 2 raptures, & I fail to see the logic in this idea.

First of all---on you page entitled "Two Raptures" you mention that the first rapture is in Rev. 4:1. In revelation 4:1 it says "Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven & the same voice I had heard before, that sounded like a mighty trumpet blast, spoke to me & said 'come up here and I will show what must happen in the future" this CLEARLY is not a rapture. the angel is speaking to the prophet John--the writer of the book. I honestly don't have a clue where you could possibly get a rapture out of that.

rapture number 2??  you said that rapture #2 takes place just before the seventh trumpet blast. I read thru the breaking of the first 6 of the seals. & I am sorry to say that I didn't come across ANY rapture let alone, a second one. At the end of the sixth seal---there the 144,000 ones with God's Seal on their foreheads, they are still here at that point. At the seventh trumpet blast a voice calls down from heaven proclaiming that the worldly kingdom is now the Lord's kingdom.

The Lord is only going to come once---& the only mention of anyone in heaven before the rapture are the martyrs. The ones that die for His word & for His name.

I just fail to see the logic in your ideas on 2 raptures.

Also you say that rapture will occur on Pentecost of '99. there is a verse in the bible clearly stating that only THE FATHER knows the exact day & time.  & another verse that states it is wrong for us to try to pinpoint the day. It says that we are to stay aware & keep watching for him.

I hope that you will at least re-evaluate your beliefs & go back & look over everything. I am sure that if you were to go over these things--you would most definitely see my point.

My intentions were not meant to offend----I hope that you don't feel that I am insulting you---because I am not. I just wanted to point out these things to you. God bless, I hope that you will reply.

My reply

> I honestly don't have a clue where you could possibly get a rapture out of that.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is a dramatic production written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is at the Rapture that Christ will be revealed to us. The Rapture is "at hand" in the first chapter (1:3) and "at hand" in the last chapter (22:10). Jesus signs off saying, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5).

Just as our movie directors first show a quick Preview of Coming Events before starting the main part of the movie, Jesus started Revelation off with a Preview. In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, John played out the Rapture. He was in the isle called Patmos (which means mortal) and became in the spirit (as we will do at the Rapture) and was caught up to Heaven, where he saw Christ with the seven candlesticks ("the seven churches," 1:20) all around him. They too had just arrived in Heaven.

John said, I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." He turned to see who spoke to him and saw Christ as he has never been seen on Earth. "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars ("the angels of the seven churches," 1:20) whom he had just snatched up): and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore."

Jesus told John to "Write the things which thou has seen (things before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter (after the Rapture)" (1:19).

In the seven messages Jesus dictated to the church, Jesus is seen as in the Preview. To Ephesus, he is "he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks," etc.

In 3:8, Jesus said to the church of Philadelphia, "behold, I have set before thee an open door." This is the door that opens in 4:1. It says, "behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard (Christ at the Preview of the Rapture) was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER (the Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (after he Rapture). And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a THRONE was set IN HEAVEN."

John was caught up to Heaven, playing out the Rapture. The elders are there, singing "a new song" and saying, "Thou...hast redeemed (past tense) us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth." A similar statement was in the Preview. Rev. 1:6 says, "And hath (past tense) made us kings and priests."

> you said that rapture #2 takes place just before the seventh trumpet blast. > I read thru the breaking of the first 6 of the seals. & I am sorry to say > that I didn't come across ANY rapture let alone, a second one. At the end > of the sixth seal---there the 144,000 ones with God's Seal on their foreheads, > they are still here at that point.

You must have misunderstood. Sorry I did not make it clear enough. Rapture #2 takes place before the first blast. The seven trumpets are judgment. No believer is going through that. They are caught away to Heaven first. The second Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. Rev. 7:9-17 tells us of a "great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS" (even the 144,000 of Israel) that stood before the throne in Heaven. In verse 14, we are told who they are. "These are they which came out of great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God (in Heaven)...They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more."

> The Lord is only going to come once---& the only mention of anyone in
> heaven before the rapture are the martyrs.

Then please explain to me why Christ comes "IN THE AIR" in I Thess. 4:17, and he comes to place his feet ON THE GROUND in Zech. 14:4. It says, "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." We have to rightly divide the word of truth. These are two separate occasions. When he comes in the air, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17).

As for the mention of anyone in Heaven, here are two groups, both seen around the throne in Heaven. Rev. 5:9 is after the Pre-Trib Rapture. It says that Christ, as the Lamb of God, "hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." Verse 2 mentions "a THRONE was set IN HEAVEN." Rev. 7:14 is after the second Rapture. It says of the great multitude out of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "stood before the THRONE" (Rev. 7:9), "These are they which came out of great tribulation....Therefore are they before the THRONE of God" (in Heaven). These are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> Also you say that rapture will occur on Pentecost of '99.  there is a
> verse in the bible clearly stating that only THE FATHER knows the
> exact day & time.  & another verse that states it is wrong for us to
> try to pinpoint the day.

I do not say that the Rapture will definitely occur on next Pentecost. I say that that is how it looks to me. There is a world of difference.

The verse about only the Father knowing is Mt. 24:36. It says, "But of that day and hour KNOWETH no man." The word "knoweth" is present tense. On that day, no man knew. It does not say that no man would ever know. I have studied long and hard ever since at least 1960. To my knowledge there is no verse stating that "it is wrong for us to try to pinpoint the day." I think you will read the whole Bible hunting for that one and still not find it. Be careful that you can back up what you say. We are dealing with God's Word here. We can't make it say what we want it to say. We have to figure out what the things it says mean.

> I hope that you will at least re-evaluate your beliefs & go back &
> look over everything. I am sure that if you were to go over these
> things--you would most definitely see my point.

I have looked over everything many many times. I have read about 15 versions of the Bible all the way through. I have written three books about the Bible, and I do not see your point.

Don't worry, you don't offend me. I have studied the Bible intensively for over 38 years. If I can help you understand it more perfectly, my studies will have been worth while.

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Koenig's International News: National Guard ready to act on eve of 2000
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel - 10/07/98
Computers' confusion could endanger safety, experts tell lawmakers, By Amy Rinard

Madison -- The Wisconsin National Guard is prepared to be mobilized on Dec. 31, 1999, to deal with potential power failures, water system shutdowns and other problems that could occur as computers click over to the year 2000.

And an attorney for a major electric utility said the company is encouraging its customers to look into alternative energy sources, including home generators, in anticipation of power failures as a result of the problem....

"The only thing we do know is that there will be problems," said Rep. Sheryl Albers (R-Loganville), the chairwoman of the committee. "We don't know what will fail. It could affect a small area or a big area or the entire state."

Mari Nahn, an attorney with Madison-based Alliant Corp.-Wisconsin Power & Light Co., said power failures are likely, as are failures of municipal water systems.

Computer chips embedded in everything from pacemakers to coffee-makers have the potential to fail, and in many cases people don't even know they're there, Nahn said.

In the utility industry, embedded chips are used everywhere, she added.

Albers said she will introduce legislation in January to put the Wisconsin National Guard on standby on Dec. 31, 1999, to be ready to address any problems caused by computer shutdowns.

Those problems could include small or widespread power failures, the failure of municipal water or sewage systems and even the failure of security systems at prisons, Albers said....

So Alberts said National Guard members could be called upon, for example, to help evacuate hospitals that lose power and heat or to help haul water to communities whose water systems have shut down.

"I don't want to scare the public, but when we start talking about mobilizing the National Guard, people should realize how serious this is," Albers said.

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Thanks for your reply which up to now I have not acknowledged. I printed it out and intend to go over it more carefully, but have been so busy I have not replied to you or studied it as I wished.

I pray that God will reach out His mighty hand and touch your back, relieving you of your pain. He is a merciful God and gives you much grace to carry on any way, it is plain to see.

Have you heard of a C SPAN airing of Netanyahu and Arafat dialogue early Sun. Oct. 4 (Morning in Israel)? A friend of mine reported his sister, up with a headache turned on tv and heard Netanyhu telling Arafat that the 13% land deal is a no-go unless he is guaranteed at least 7 years of no agression against Israel. I tried to find it on my internet but can't seem to get into C SPAN. I suppose in a few days we will be hearing the terms of the agreement reached.

Also, I've been researching Y2K and on Chuck Missler's "K-Rations" Aug. 19, I guess he remarks about the White House ordering tons of freeze-dried foods from a place in Alpine CA, not too far from me.(I'm 2 minutes from the CA border). I don't trust Clinton not to declare Martial law, suspend the constitution and elections, over this Y2K thing. Perhaps the church will be out of here by then, (and I hope we are) but I feel we should be ready with extra water and food as a contingency plan. "A prudent man foresees evil and hides himself, but the simple pass on and are punished."(Prov. 22:3)

Thank you for being our 'watchman on the wall'. I look forward to each P/C. Pray for the soon return of out Lord.

My reply

Thanks for your prayers and kind remarks.

> heard Netanyhu telling Arafat that the 13% land deal is a no-go unless he
> is guaranteed at least 7 years of no agression against Israel.

I had not heard of the 7 years. That is a very interesting development.

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FROM CAPS...Please note the following: In Hosea 2:9 it says "Therefore will I RETURN, and TAKE AWAY my CORN (grain) in the TIME thereof, and my WINE in the SEASON thereof..." Are there any verses that would help indicate WHEN the time and season would be? Look at DEUT. 16:13..." Thou shall observe the Feast of Tabernacles 7 days after you have gathered in your CORN AND WINE..."The Amplified version reads "...after you have gathered in from your threshing floor and vine vat." It appears that the Final ingathering was at the time of the F.O.T. Also, remember that on the 7th day of the FOT that the procession in the temple area CIRCLED the site SEVEN times instead of ONE time--as they did on the previous 6 days.

Also note that in Leviticus ch 23 all 7 Feasts are mentioned. God calls them HIS APPOINTED feasts. There are 7 HOLY CONVOCATIONS during these 7 feasts. They are as follows:

1 FIRST day of UNL. BREAD
2.SEVENTH day of UNL. BREAD
3.PENTECOST
4.TRUMPETS
5.ATONEMENT
6.FIRST day of TABERNACLES--Tishri 15
7.TISHRI 22-- the 8th day
These are HIS days. They are similar to our days of the week in that there are 7 of them. After Pentecost there was a word that said that ..."I will reveal for three days the things that are soon to come to pass on MY DAY.." "my days (3) shall be as your days..." After Pentecost, when this was given, the next three "days " would be TRUMPETS, ATONEMENT, AND TISHRI 15. This leaves TISHRI 22. ALSO, we were told in another word to "go again the third time..." (See p/c 127).. The Fall feasts are the Third of the three pilgrim feasts. I am Not setting dates....only suggesting to Stay Awake.

The following verse was part of the scripture reading during the FOT. I believe it was read on the 7th day. JER. 17:12"A glorious high throne from the beginning is the place of our sanctuary." God Bless.

My reply

> In Hosea 2:9 it says "Therefore will I RETURN, and TAKE AWAY my CORN (grain)
> in the TIME thereof, and my WINE in the SEASON thereof"

To me, this means that the grain is taken away "IN THE TIME THEREOF." That is the first Rapture. Then the wine is taken "IN THE SEASON THEREOF." That is Rapture II. The time of the grain is not necessarily the season of the wine.

> DEUT. 16:13..." Thou shall observe the Feast of Tabernacles 7 days after
> you have gathered in your CORN AND WINE."

They could begin to gather the grain on Pentecost, gather the wine on the Feast of Trumpets, and still observe Tabernacles AFTER THAT. The seven days may be because it is the seventh feast and will be observed in the seventh millennium.

> Also, remember that on the 7th day of the FOT that
> the procession in the temple area CIRCLED the site SEVEN times instead of
> ONE time--as they did on the previous 6 days.

Does it state in Scripture that they should do that? I looked at Strong's for circle/d, circuit, seven, without finding it.

As for any time between Tishri 1 and Nisan 30, how can you get around Song of Solomon 2:11's rain being over and gone?

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I guess I'd better thank you for all your prompt responses; pro and con discussions of my letters; etc. But I am the perpetual troublemaker here; it is just to keep honest and attempt to answer doctrinal issues according to scriptural mandates which keeps me throwing in the monkey wrenches. This question is really the doozie; I mean I am letting out all reserves here in writing this. But seriously; what are you trying to imply in teaching that Saturn is heaven???????????

I mean; doesn't heaven get described; at least in human terms as a city of New Jerusalem which is 1200 stadia cubed; in volume? I mean; wouldn't we know if this was really heaven if we looked with our probes; telescopes and fly by's with spacecraft (we would surely be able with whatever UV or infrared detectors) be able to see the presence of the myriads of angels; or Christ himself there. If it was a golden city somehow extracted from the enormous planet and rotating and eventually settling on the earth; how the heck could this happen; and wouldn't detectors like see a square of gold in there someplace????? And finally, if heaven is indeed there; how the heck are we supposed to dwell in an atmosphere of 200 below zero; many times more powerful than earth in who knows what kind of gasses in the air???? Even with our new bodies; it is hard to fathom other kinds of life (plants; trees; etc. listed in Revelation dwelling there.) And the verses indicating the Lord's habitation in the sides of the north; and Satan's desire to be ruling over this same hole in the sky being indicated there???? Uh. Saturn and all the planets are in the southern part of the sky except in the southern hemisphere.

Don't get me wrong. I do respect many of your teachings; and I can see how the gravitational influences which are apparently missing in relation to original mass; gravitational deviations in rotations and revolutions of planets; etc. are indicative of there being a planet around where Mars and Jupiter are in the current asteroid belt; and I do a lot of study in the subject of creationism (despite my limited BS degree and minor in Geology and just one astronomy course) I try to do my homework. Help.

My reply

> what are you trying to imply in teaching that Saturn is heaven?

Merely that it seems to me that Saturn is our Heaven and the throne of the Lord Jesus Christ. You can see all my reasons in my book, "Heaven Found: A Butter and Honey Star."

> I mean; doesn't heaven get described; at least in human terms as a city of New
> Jerusalem which is 1200 stadia cubed

Rev. 7:1 says, "I saw four angels standing on the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH." Do you think Earth is a cube? No, because we have photographed it from space and KNOW it is a sphere. The word "corners" is "gonia, (Strong's 1137). It means "quarter." The Earth has four quarters. So does Heaven. "The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal" (Rev. 21:16). This is true of a sphere.

Symbolically, the perfect cube of the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle represented Heaven, because "The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal," as in a sphere.

In Ezek. 1:6, "every one (of the terrestrial planets called cherubim) had four faces (faced four directions), and every one had four wings (kanaph, quarters)." They also had four concentric orbits like wheels within wheels. The visible outer edge of each disk looked "like the sole of a calf's foot" (circular). Their "appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps" (Ezek. 1:13).

The faces in Ezek. 1:10 were the same as on the banners the Israelites placed at the compass points when they camped in the wilderness. The eagle is north, the lion east, the man is south, and the ox is west.

The lamps tie in nicely with the candlestick. It's lamps represented the original planets from Earth on out: Mars, Rahab, Jupiter, SATURN, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Rahab is now our Asteroid Belt.

The Tabernacle curtain with cherubim (i.e., planets) embroidered on each of the ten panels stood for all the planets in our solar system: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab, Jupiter, SATURN, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. God "sitteth upon the circle (chuwg, circuit, i.e., orbit) of the earth...(he) stretcheth out the heavens AS A CURTAIN, and spreadeth them out AS A TENT TO DWELL IN" (Isa. 40:22).

If you stood inside the Tabernacle and looked up at the panels with cherubim embroidered on them, it would be like looking up at the night sky. The panel that hung over the back corner represented Earth. That is why Jesus is to become head of the corner. Psa. 118.22 says, "The stone (Christ) which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner." The word "stone" here is not in the original. It was supplied by the translators. The Hebrew literally says, "the head of the corner." The panels of the curtain from the corner one to the front of the Tabernacle represent the same planets as the candlestick: Mars, Rahab, Jupiter, SATURN, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. The semicircular branches of the candlestick suggest the orbits.

Rev. 4:3-6 says, "there was a RAINBOW ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE, in sight like unto an emerald (Judah's stone in the breastplate)...and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne." These seven lamps could have a double meaning. They may suggest the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab, Jupiter, the spheres that are before Saturn in the planetary linup.

The ten stones in Ezek. 28:13 represent the whole planetary linup: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab, Jupiter, SATURN, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. Saturn is the seventh. Seven is God's number--very appropriate. Saturn is represented by the sapphire, which means "dear to the planet Saturn," from the Sanskrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. At Sinai, "they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body) in his clearness."

Do you need more? I've got lots more. Saturn has seven rings about it. Zech. 3:9 in the Septuagint says, "For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, circles, rings)." Ezekiel saw it above the heads of the cherubim (Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab), and "it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD" (Ezek. 1:27,28, KJV). The NEB has "encircling radiance" in Ezek. 1:28 and "a sea of glass, like a sheet of ice" in Rev. 4:6. The encircling rings of Saturn are like a sea of ice crystals. The likeness to a rainbow is why the Lord told Noah, "I do set MY BOW in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me (in Heaven) and the earth" (Gen. 9:13).

Ezek. 1:22,26,28 in the NEB says, "Above the heads of the living creatures (lively things, i.e., the cherubim) was, as it were, a vault glittering like a sheet of ice...Above the vault over their heads there appeared, as it were, a sapphire in the shape of a throne, and high above all, upon the throne, a form in human likeness (i.e., Jesus Christ).

All the planets can be called cherubim. God sits between the cherubim. Psa. 99:1 says, "let the people tremble, he sitteth between the cherubims." Saturn is between Jupiter and Uranus.

In the Septuagint, Job 37:18-22 says of heaven, "But the light is not visible to all (then it is visible to some); it shines afar off in the heavens, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north (upward) come the clouds SHINING LIKE GOLD (Saturn has golden clouds): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty" (Christ, Rev. 1:8).

I Cor. 12:2-4 says, "such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN (Mars, Jupiter, SATURN). And I knew such a man...How that he was caught up into PARADISE."

> if we looked with our probes; telescopes and fly by's with spacecraft (we
> would surely be able with whatever UV or infrared detectors) be able to
> see the presence of the myriads of angels; or Christ himself there.

Job 36:22 says, "With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt."

> how the heck are we supposed to dwell in an atmosphere of 200 below zero

The astronomers were surprised to find that Saturn radiates six times the heat it receives from the sun. That 200 below zero may be in the upper atmosphere. How cold is it in our upper atmosphere? Revelation mentions the river and trees. I believe the Bible.

> And the verses indicating the Lord's
> habitation in the sides of the north; and Satan's desire to be ruling over
> this same hole in the sky being indicated there????

I don't remember any verse saying that Satan desires to rule over a hole in the sky. Psa. 48:1,2 says, "GREAT is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in THE CITY OF OUR GOD, in the mountain of his holiness. Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion (there is an earthly Zion and a heavenly Zion), on the sides of the north, the city of the great King."

If you are in the northern hemisphere, imagine that you are standing facing east when Pisces is midway in its circuit across the sky. Look straight up at the north star. That is north. Saturn is on your right, farther down, in Pisces, just about to enter Aries, the RAM. It outshines Polaris. Couldn't you say that Saturn is "in the sides of the north" (in the sides of the vault of the northern hemisphere of the sky)?

Psa. 89:36,37 says, "His seed (David's, i.e., Christ) shall endure for ever, and HIS THRONE AS THE SUN before me. It shall be established for ever AS THE MOON, and as a faithful witness (therefore visible) in heaven." Psa. 78:69 says that the Lord "built his sanctuary (tabernacle) like high palaces (planets), LIKE THE EARTH (a planet)." Since Heaven is as the sun, as the moon, and like the Earth, it is a sphere in our solar system. From the sun, Saturn is the farthest out of the seven naked-eye planets, and it is the third in brightness. Therefore, Saturn is associated with the appropriate numbers three and seven.

Heaven is a rock covered by thick clouds. Job 38:37,38 in the LXX says, "who is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has bowed the heaven...to the earth? For it (Heaven) is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, AND I HAVE CEMENTED IT AS ONE HEWN STONE TO ANOTHER." This sounds like the Lord formed it by coalescence.

Jesus told the overcomers of the churches, "I will give him the morning star." I think Saturn will be a morning star at the time of the Rapture. It is a morning star 5 months and an evening star 5 months. The rest of the time, we can't see it for it is going around the sun.

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