Pro and Con 1979
Pro and Con 1979
Posted 6-30-17
INCOMING EMAIL, RE: Bible Question!
It is incorrect for you to label the "trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16
as the "first trump". The Bible never called it the first trump. It is you
who has added the adjective "first" to it to make it read "first trump" so
that it can fit with your theology. By so doing, you have added your own
idea to the Word of God. That is wrong! It is inappropriate to change the
Word of God or add to it in order to make it fit with your own personal
doctrine. The Bible simply called it "Trump" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. What
makes you think this is not the same as the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians
15:52? When interpreting the Scriptures, we should NOT put words into the
Bible's "mouth". Let the Scriptures speak for itself. The Bible says "Trump"
but you've decided to change it to "First Trump". How can you do that?
If there are two raptures as you claim, what happens to the raptured
believers immediately after the first rapture? Where do they go to? Do they
go to heaven or back into their graves to await your so-called "second
rapture"? Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says "So shall we always be with
the Lord". This means we will be with the Lord in heaven after your
so-called "first rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
If the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is different from the rapture in 1
Corinthians 15:51-54, why do both passages talk about the dead being
resurrected and the living being changed and raptured? Why would 1
Corinthians 15 (your so-called "second rapture" verse) talk about the the
dead being raised from their graves? I thought they were already raised from
the grave during the first rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17? How many
times are the dead going to be raised from their graves? Or do they go back
to their graves after the first rapture so that they can be raised a second
time from the grave during the second rapture? But as we have already seen,
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says the raptured believers will always be with the
Lord after the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4. If the raptured saints are
going to be with the Lord in heaven after the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4,
why would it be necessary for the dead in Christ to rise again from the dead
in 1 Corinthians 15? How can people who were already resurrected in 1
Thessalonians 4 and who are now with the Lord in heaven be resurrected a
second time from their graves in 1 Corinthians 15? It makes no sense. Your
theology is dead wrong. The truth is, both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1
Corinthians 15 describe the exact same rapture event and not two different
raptures. Your view of the rapture is a false teaching which is really
unfortunate.
So, you think that Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians
4) told the Thessalonians only about the "first rapture" and he somehow
forgot to tell them about the "second rapture"? Then in his letter to the
Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul somehow forgot to tell the Corinthians
about the "first rapture" and, instead, told them only about the "second
rapture"?
You quoted Revelation 13:6 as evidence of your first rapture? "And he opened
his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his
tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN.." In what way does this
demonstrate a mid-tribulation rapture? If the "them that dwell in heaven" is
a reference to the Church, this passage does not tell us when they arrived
in heaven. Couldn't they have arrived in heaven before the Tribulation
started? The passage says nothing about the timing of their arrival in
heaven. How could you jump to conclusion that this is a reference to a
mid-tribulation rapture? The passage says nothing about when the "them that
dwell in heaven" arrived in heaven. I'm sorry, but this is not how we
interpret scriptures. Let the Scripture interpret itself rather than forcing
it to say what you want it to say. Your arguments and interpretations are
not logical at all.
You keep repeating your mantra: "Michael shall stand up at mid-tribulation".
For God's sake, what has this got to do with the rapture of the Church? This
has absolutely nothing to do with the rapture. We know that 1 Thessalonians
4:16 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel...". But this Scripture does not mean that
anywhere you find something said about archangel Michael in the scriptures,
it must be a reference to the rapture. You're linking every reference about
Michael in the book of Revelation to the rapture. How can you do that? Can't
Michael be involved in a different end-time event besides the rapture? Must
it be only the rapture that Michael has to be involved in? There are other
events besides the rapture in which Michael might be involved. Why must you
link every mention of Michael to the rapture? In Revelation 13, nothing is
said about the rapture, yet you see a rapture in that passage simply because
Micheal is mentioned there. I'm sorry, this is not how we interpret the
scriptures. What has "Michael shall stand up" got to do with the Rapture of
the Church?
When the Bible says in Daniel 12:1 that "Michael shall stand up", the very
next sentence says "the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your
people" (i.e. Daniel's people, the Jews). So, Michael is the great prince
who stands watch over the Jews. "Michael shall stand up" means he shall
interpose; he shall come forth to render aid to the Jews during their time
of distress. This does not mean necessarily that he would visibly appear,
but that he would in fact interpose. In the time of great distress and
trouble, there would be supernatural or angelic aid rendered to the people
of God. Then Daniel is told in the same verse, "At that time ... your people
[the Jews] shall be delivered.." So, putting it together, we can say: At
that time, Michael shall stand up...and at that time, your people [the Jews]
shall be delivered [from the time of trouble, the great tribulation]. This
is NOT a reference to the rapture of the Church. It is a reference to the
deliverance of Israel from the wrath of the Antichrist during the
Tribulation. The remnant of Israel will be hidden away in the wilderness to
protect her from the Antichrist, until Jesus Christ returns to earth
physically at the end of the Tribulation. According to Revelation 12, after
Satan is cast down from heaven, he goes after the woman (Israel) and tries
to destroy her, but God will protect Israel during the Tribulation.
"At that time, .... your people shall be delivered" (Daniel 12: This period
generally will be a time of extreme distress for the Jews, worse than any
other time in their national history (cf. Deuteronomy 4:30; Jeremiah 30:7;
Matthew 24:21; Revelation 6-19). The Day of the Lord, the Time of Jacob"s
Trouble, and the Great Tribulation are all terms that Scripture uses to
describe a three and one-half year period of intense trouble yet future,
namely, the last half of Daniel"s seventieth week. The repetition of "your
people" in this verse clearly identifies the Jews, not all believers. They
will be the focus of intense persecution, though many non-Jews will also
suffer, and Israel"s land will become an international battlefield
(cf.Matthew 24:22).
Rev 11:1 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the
angel stood, saying, RISE, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and
them that worship therein...."
According to you, the above verse is a reference to the rapture? It's crazy
for anyone to say this verse is a reference to the Rapture! How on earth
could the word "RISE and measure.." be referring to the rapture? This was
simply an instruction for John the apostle. In his vision of Revelation, the
apostle John was instructed to "RISE and measure the temple of God and the
altar...." Rise and measure simply means "Go and measure". In other words,
"GET UP and measure.." How could you say this is a reference to the Rapture
of the Church? Your reasoning is illogical, irrational and difficult for
anyone to follow. I'm sorry, but nobody in his/her right mind would embrace
this kind of interpretation. So, in your theology, virtually every word in
the book of Revelation is a reference to the Rapture?
You have even equated the word "Salvation" in Revelation 12:10 with
"Rapture". This passage describes what happens after Satan was cast out of
heaven and it reads: "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now
salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His
Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren who accused them before
our God day and night, has been cast down."
How can you say that "salvation" in the above passage (Revelation 12:10)
means Rapture? This is a grave error! So, in your opinion, every word in the
book of Revelation means Rapture?
I correctly informed you that the Church will not take part in the
Tribulation because the Tribulation is not meant for the Church. But you
argue that "The Antichrist is the head of "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE
MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." According to you, "This is
the "CHURCH in Thyatira", the Jezebel that is facing the Great Tribulation.
That Jezebel is getting people to "eat things sacrificed unto idols".
It is seems you don't understand what Revelation 17:5 is talking about. This
passage is not talking about the TRUE Church of God. It is a reference to
the APOSTATE church. There is a difference between the true Church and the
apostate (fake) church. The true Church will be raptured prior to the
Tribulation, but the apostate church will NOT be raptured. The apostate
church (the worldly church that pretends to be christian but is not really
christian) does more to cause harm than those worldly people who claim to be
lost. The fake worldly church always persecutes the true faithful church.
This evil in the apostate church is an abomination to God. It is a mystery
how this could happen in the church. The Bible describes this fake church as
"Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the
Earth." As the fountainhead of idolatry, Babylon the harlot is the MOTHER OF
HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH; this harlot (fake church) has killed
many of God's saints and Christian martyrs throughout the ages, and will do
so again during the Tribulation period. This fake church is the Roman
Catholic Church. Revelation 17:6 tells us that the fake church is guilty of
the blood of the saints. The Roman Catholic Church is the religious Babylon
the Great, the Mother of harlots and Abominations of the Earth. It killed
many of God's saints and servants in the past and will do so again during
the Tribulation period. God will judge this religious Babylon during the
Tribulation, and it will be destroyed. Revelation 17:16-17 describes the
destruction of Religious Babylon (the fake church, the Roman Catholic
Church): "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall
hate the whore [the fake Church], and shall make her desolate and naked, and
shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. ... For God hath put in their
hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the
beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."
I don't think you understand what the "last trump" really means. The last
trump in 1 Corinthians 15: is not the same as the seventh trumpet in the
book of Revelation. We read in Revelation 11:15, "And the seventh angel
sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of
this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he
shall reign for ever and ever.'" In the context, this seems to come around
the middle of the Tribulation. But the trumpet mentioned in Revelation 11:15
is NOT the same as the trumpet mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1
Corinthians 15. In order to confirm whether they are the same or not, we can
compare the events they are associated with. The following table helps us to
easily compare the events associated with the trumpet sounds mentioned in 1
Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 11. This comparison will
help us determine which of the trumpets in the three passages are identical
to each other:
Events
1 Corinthians 15
1 Thessalonians 4
Revelation 11
Trumpet sound:
v. 52
v. 16
v. 15
Dead saints raised:
v. 52
v. 16
Living saints changed
v. 52
v. 17
Death overcome by victory
v. 54
v. 14
Jesus descends from Heaven
v. 16
Not until Rev 19:11
Kingdoms of the world taken over by Christ
v. 15
Wrath of God on dead:
v. 18
Rewards given to saints:
v. 18
Intended result:
v. 57-58 - thanks, victory, faithfulness until then
v. 18 - comfort now, presence with Christ then
v. 14,17 - woe on earth, thanks in Heaven.
It is clear that the first two passages (Corinthians and Thessalonians) fit
together, but the third doesn't appear to have any correlation in either the
events described or the intended results. The argument connecting them has
to depend on the meaning of the word last in 1 Corinthians 15:52. The Greek
word eschatos can mean either "last in point of time" or "last in point of
sequence." This trumpet sounds before the wrath of God descends, yet
Revelation 6:17 speaks of the wrath of the Lamb as having come, and the
seventh trumpet doesn't sound until Revelation 11:15. The trumpet of 1
Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 is given in a moment, whereas
Revelation 10:7 indicates that the seventh trumpet will be sounded for a
number of days. Even though the seventh trumpet is the last one described in
Revelation, Matthew 24:31 indicates there is yet another trumpet which will
sound "after the tribulation of those days," when Christ returns to the
earth, which parallels with Revelation 19.
If the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15 is not the same as the seventh
trumpet, then what was Paul referring to? Both 1 Thessalonians and 1
Corinthians were written long before John wrote Revelation, so Paul's
readers would have no knowledge of the seven trumpets of Revelation. Paul
intended for them to understand what he was writing about, so we need to
look elsewhere for clarification. Paul's writing was distinctly in reference
to the church and the closing of the church age at the rapture. Throughout
Scripture, trumpets were used as signals to gather people, to set armies on
the move, and as part of the worship of God. The trumpet that summons the
church in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 is called "the trump of
God," while those in Revelation are angelic trumpets. Since it is a
summoning trumpet, we can look to the Old Testament for further
understanding. Numbers 10 gives instruction to Israel about the use of
trumpets to call an assembly of the people and to set them in motion. The
first trumpet blast (v. 4) called the leaders together, while a continual
blowing was an alarm for the people. A series of trumpet blasts was the
signal for each group of tribes to begin their journey, and the last blast
indicated the movement of the last group in the camp. Similarly, 1
Corinthians 15:23 speaks of different orders, or ranks, in the resurrection:
"Every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are
Christ's at His coming." Further, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 divides Christ's
own into two groups—the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain.
Clearly then, the trumpet in the book of Revelation is NOT the same trumpet
mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4.
Finally, it is incorrect for you to suppose that the idea of a single
rapture of the Church is a pre-tribulation teaching. All the main rapture
views (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation and pre-wrath
views) believe in a single rapture of the Church. None of them believes in
two raptures. The difference between them is the timing of this single
rapture, not the number of raptures. They all believe that the Bible teaches
a single Church rapture.
Frankly speaking, I don't know why I am even writing this mail to you right
now. I feel I am wasting my time doing all this explanations, because you're
not open to the truth. By writing to you, I feel as though I am casting my
pearl before swine. You have not approached the Word of God with an open
mind. You've decided to embrace a false teaching and to close your mind
against any truth. So, it's pointless for me to even spend my time writing
and explaining. I had thought my previous mail would be the very last mail
to you but I just got tempted to respond to write again today in response to
your last mail. Hopefully, this mail will be my last because it's not
helpful to keep writing when your reasoning is so illogical and difficult to
follow. You interpret virtually every word in the book of Revelation as
Rapture in an attempt to defend your false teaching.
You may choose to believe whatever you wish to believe, but that does not
change the truth of God's Word. It's your prerogative to believe whatever
you want to believe.
May God open your eyes to the truth. Good luck.
MY REPLY
I hung my hand off the bed momentarily and my middle finger jumped out of its socket.
It is very sore. I can't type much, so I will send you my rough draft.
I used to think the Rapture would be Pre-Trib. I now think the First-Trump
Rapture will be on Tabernacles in the middle of the Tribulation.
> > It is incorrect for you to label the "trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians
> > 4:16 as the "first trump". The Bible never called it the first trump.
> > The Bible simply called it "Trump" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. What makes
> > you think this is not the same as the "last trump"
The word "last" means after all others in order or sequence. You can't have
a "last trump" unless you have a first trump. Therefore, the first Rapture
is the first trump. It takes place when Michael stands up Mid-Trib.
I don't put my words in Scripture. I am just explaining what Scripture means
to me.
It is obvious that the two Raptures are not the same. The voice of Michael
the archangel is only heard at the first trump. We only get our immortal
bodies at the "last trump".
MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL IS ONLY MENTIONED IN THESE SCRIPTURES
Dan_10:13,14 says, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one
and twenty days: but, lo, MICHAEL, one of the chief princes, came to help
me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make
thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the
vision is for many days."
Dan_10:21 says, "But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture
of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but
MICHAEL your prince."
Dan_12:1 says, "And AT THAT TIME (i.e., Mid-Trib) shall MICHAEL stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there
shall be (i.e., after Mid-Trib) a time of trouble (i.e., the Great
Tribulation), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same
time: and AT THAT TIME (i.e., Mid-Trib, when Michael stands up) THY PEOPLE
SHALL BE DELIVERED (malat, escape, leap out), every one that shall be found
written in the book."
Jud_1:9 says, "Yet MICHAEL the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Rev 12:7-12 says, "And there was war in heaven: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now (i.e., Mid-Trib) is come salvation (soteria, rescue, deliverance, i.e., the Rapture), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."
Elijah and Moses come back with Michael Mid-Trib. See Mt 17:1-7, Zec 4:14
and Rev 11:3f.
THE POSSIBLE RAPTURE AT TABERNACLES
In Joh 6:44, Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which
hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Of the Transfiguration, Mt. 17:1-8 says, "And AFTER SIX DAYS Jesus taketh
Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high
mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and HIS FACE DID SHINE
AS THE SUN, AND HIS RAIMENT WAS WHITE AS THE LIGHT. 3 And, behold, there
appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter,
and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let
us make here three TABERNACLES; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for
Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and
behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they
fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched
them, and said, ARISE, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up
their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only."
Rev 1:13,14 says, "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto
the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the
paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool,
as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire".
Mar 9:2-8 says, "And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James,
and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and
he was transfigured before them. 3 AND HIS RAIMENT BECAME SHINING EXCEEDING WHITE AS SNOW; SO AS NO FULLER ON EARTH CAN WHITE THEM. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here:
and let us make three TABERNACLES; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one
for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And
there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud,
saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had
looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with
themselves."
Luk 9:28-35 says, "And it came to pass about an eight days after these
sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to
pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and
his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him
two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of
his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they
that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw
his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as
they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to
be here: and let us make three TABERNACLES; one for thee, and one for Moses,
and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there
came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into
the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my
beloved Son: hear him."
Dan 7:9,10 says, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient
of days did sit, whose garment was WHITE AS SNOW, and the hair of his head
like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as
burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him:
thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand
stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."
Deu_16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD
thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened
bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the FEAST OF TABERNACLES: and they
shall not appear before the LORD empty".
Deu 31:10-12 says, "And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every
seven years, IN THE SOLEMNITY OF THE YEAR OF RELEASE, IN THE FEAST OF
TABERNACLES, 11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God
in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all
Israel in their hearing. 12 GATHER THE PEOPLE together, men, and women, and
children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and
that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the
words of this law".
Psa 43:3 says, "O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let
them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles."
Psa_46:4 says, "There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the
city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High."
Psa 132:7-9 says, "We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his
footstool. 8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy
strength. 9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and LET THY
SAINTS SHOUT FOR JOY."
Hos 12:9,10 says, "And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt
will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn
feast. 10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied
visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."
SOLOMON'S TEMPLE WAS DEDICATED ON TABERNACLES
2Ch 7:8-11 says, "Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days,
and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of
Hamath unto the river of Egypt. 9 And in the eighth day they made a solemn
assembly: for they kept the dedication of the altar seven days, and the
feast seven days. 10 And on the three and twentieth day of the seventh
month he sent the people away into their tents, glad and merry in heart for
the goodness that the LORD had shewed unto David, and to Solomon, and to
Israel his people. 11 Thus Solomon finished the house of the LORD".
THE FEAST OF INGATHERING IS "IN THE END OF THE YEAR"
Exo 23:15-17 says, "Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou
shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time
appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none
shall appear before me empty:) 16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits
of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and THE FEAST OF
INGATHERING, WHICH IS IN THE END OF THE YEAR, when thou hast gathered in thy
labours out of the field. 17 Three times in the year all thy males shall
appear before the Lord GOD."
THE CHURCH BEGAN ON THE FEAST OF WEEKS AND PROBABLY WILL END ON TABERNACLES, "THE FEAST OF INGATHERING AT THE YEAR'S END"
Exo_34:22 says, " And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the
firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's
end."
THERE IS WAR IN HEAVEN MID-TRIB
Rev_12:7 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought
against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels".
SOME OF THE CHURCH OF THYATIRA WILL BE CAST INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Rev 2:22 says, "Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit
adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, except they repent of their
deeds."
TWO TRUMPETS
Num 10:1-4 talks about two trumpets. It says, "And the LORD spake unto
Moses, saying, 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt
thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly,
and for the journeying of the camps. 3 And when they shall blow with them,
all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the
tabernacle of the congregation. 4 And if they blow but with one trumpet,
then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather
themselves unto thee."
At the first trump, the elders are gathered.
Rev 4:4 says, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and
upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white
raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."
FIRST TRUMP
1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD (i.e., the
first trump): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are
alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
LAST TRUMP
1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT
THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory."
> > If there are two raptures as you claim, what happens to the raptured
> > believers immediately after the first rapture? Where do they go to? Do
> > they go to heaven or back into their graves to await your so-called
> > "second rapture"?
Those caught up in the Rapture go to Heaven.
> > The Bible simply called it "Trump" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. What makes
> > you think this is not the same as the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians
> > 15:52?
The two Raptures happen at different times. It looks like the First-Trump Rapture takes place on the Day of Christ Mid-Trib and the Last-Trump Rapture takes place
on the Day of the Lord at the end of the Great Tribulation.
> > Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says "So shall we always be with the
> > Lord". This means we will be with the Lord in heaven after your
> > so-called "first rapture" of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
That's right. Those caught up in the Rapture never die.
> > Why would 1 Corinthians 15 (your so-called "second rapture" verse) talk
> > about the the dead being raised from their graves? I thought they were
> > already raised from the grave during the first rapture of 1
> > Thessalonians 4:16-17?
There are two different groups of people. The first group is raptured on the
Day of Christ Mid-Trib. The last group is raptured on the Day of the Lord at
the end of the Great Tribulation.
> > If the raptured saints are going to be with the Lord in heaven after
> > the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, why would it be necessary for the dead
> > in Christ to rise again from the dead in 1 Corinthians 15?
The people caught up in the Second Rapture are not the same people that were
caught up in the First Rapture. However, they are added to the first group.
Heb 12:22-24 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."
> > both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 describe the exact same
> > rapture event and not two different raptures.
The two Raptures are not the same.
AT THE FIRST-TRUMP RAPTURE, NONE ARE GIVEN THEIR IMMORTAL BODY
1Th 4:16,17 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
AT THE LAST-TRUMP RAPTURE, ALL RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTAL BODY
1Co 15:51-54 says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on
incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this
corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory."
> > So, you think that Paul, in his letter to the Thessalonians (1
> > Thessalonians 4) told the Thessalonians only about the "first rapture"
> > and he somehow forgot to tell them about the "second rapture"? Then in
> > his letter to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul somehow forgot
> > to tell the Corinthians about the "first rapture" and, instead, told
> > them only about the "second rapture"?
Paul said what the Lord wanted him to say. We are told things here a little and there a little.
Isa_28:13 says, "But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon
precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a
little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be
broken, and snared, and taken."
> > You quoted Revelation 13:6 as evidence of your first rapture? "And he
> > opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and
> > his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN." In what way does this
> > demonstrate a mid-tribulation rapture?
They are in heaven while the Antichrist is still in command. A little after
that, the False Prophet comes to power.
> > You keep repeating your mantra: "Michael shall stand up at
> > mid-tribulation". For God's sake, what has this got to do with the
> > rapture of the Church?
Rev 12:6-12 says, "And the woman (i.e., Israel) fled into the wilderness,
where she hath a place (i.e., Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed
her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (i.e., during the Great
Tribulation). 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought
against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed
not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great
dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which
deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels
were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW
(i.e., arti, just now, i.e., Mid-Trib) IS COME SALVATION (soteria, rescue,
deliverance, salvation, i.e., the Rapture), and strength, and the kingdom of
our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is
cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they
overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 THEREFORE REJOICE, HE
HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and
of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because
he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
> > What has "Michael shall stand up" got to do with the Rapture of the
> > Church?
Dan 12:1 says, "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince
which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of
trouble (i.e., the Great Tribulation), such as never was since there was a
nation even to that same time: and at that time (i.e., Mid-Trib) thy people
shall be delivered (malat, escape, leap out), every one that shall be found
written in the book."
At the Mid-Trib Rapture, Michael will bring with him Moses and Elijah, the
two witnesses.
Jud 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."
Rev 11:1-4 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the
angel stood, saying, Rise (i.e., in the Mid-Trib Rapture), and measure the
temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the
court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is
given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty
and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they
shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in
sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks
standing before the God of the earth."
Jud 1:9 says, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he
disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing
accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Agape
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