Pro and Con 200, Uploaded 10-21-98, PM

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The Rapture ProCon Mailing List, From: VILORIA Manuel Melo

Dear Marilyn, I have just put up The Rapture ProCon Mailing List which can be accessed at http://www.viloria.com/manuel/rapture.htm

Those who sign up for the list will be able to get your ProCons via e-mail. What I will do is go to your site everyday, look for the latest ProCons, copy the entire page and then send it via e-mail to the list of subscribers.

I think this will be appreciated by those who are unable to surf the web regularly, or those who are unable to surf because they have access only to e-mail.

The service is FREE. Please let me know what you think about it, when you have the time.

Best regards, Manuel Viloria, http://www.viloria.com

My reply

Thanks. It sounds like a good idea to me. I appreciate the time that you are willing to devote to this. God bless.

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Re: rapture of the church
Dear Marilyn: My eyes are filled with tears of joy. I look forward to May 23d. You may very well be correct this time, your insight is so beautifully woven. The error of one year is understandable...and given all the work I have yet to do for our God, I am actually grateful there is some time left for me to prepare the way of the Lord. There is much to do and little time left; I am filled with urgency, yet I am anticipating the future confident in faith that justice will finally reign and suffering will soon be vanquished. Thank you for your work. There is no need to reply to this letter---I know you must be busy. Thank you again. Yours in Christ

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The Josephus quote in the celestal events paper is: Josephus, in his book, "Antiquities of the Jews", book 3, chapter V11:7, says that these seven represent the menorah (candlestick) in the Temple. The URL where that quote can be found is: http://members.aol.com/gkilli/home/celestal.html

The online version of Josephus has the pertinent passage as:

"7. Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe. When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, (15) and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men. And when he ordered twelve loaves to be set on the table, he denoted the year, as distinguished into so many months. By branching out the candlestick into seventy parts, he secretly intimated the Decani, or seventy divisions of the planets; and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to the course of the planets, of which that is the number. The veils, too, which were composed of four things, they declared the four elements; for the fine linen was proper to signify the earth, because the flax grows out of the earth; the purple signified the sea, because that color is dyed by the blood of a sea shell-fish; the blue is fit to signify the air; and the scarlet will naturally be an indication of fire. Now the vestment of the high priest being made of linen, signified the earth; the blue denoted the sky, being like lightning in its pomegranates, and in the noise of the bells resembling thunder. And for the ephod, it showed that God had made the universe of four elements; and as for the gold interwoven, I suppose it related to the splendor by which all things are enlightened. He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod, to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world. And the girdle which encompassed the high priest round, signified the ocean, for that goes round about and includes the universe. Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean, that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest's shoulders. And for the twelve stones, whether we understand by them the months, or whether we understand the like number of the signs of that circle which the Greeks call the Zodiac, we shall not be mistaken in their meaning. And for the mitre, which was of a blue color, it seems to me to mean heaven; for how otherwise could the name of God be inscribed upon it? That it was also illustrated with a crown, and that of gold also, is because of that splendor with which God is pleased. Let this explication (16) suffice at present, since the course of my narration will often, and on many occasions, afford me the opportunity of enlarging upon the virtue of our legislator."

You might want to see what the Jewish Sages say about the Ezekiel quote by getting a hold of the ArtScroll Tanakh on Ezekiel from Mesorah publications at: 1-800-MESORAH, or from your local library or Judaica store.

A comment, if you will, on your statement: "Paul said that he knew a man "caught up to the third heaven (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn)...caught up into paradise" (II Cor. 12:2)."

Paradise is how the LXX translate Gan Eden, the garden of eden.

Let me know if I can be of any further help. Shalom, shalom, Greg

My reply

May the Lord bless you for taking the time to look this up for me. Many thanks.
Josephus:
> "and as to the seven lamps upon the candlesticks, they referred to
> the course of the planets, of which that is the number."

I stumbled on this much one day at the last moment I could stay at the BIOLA library. I had no time to read the whole passage and misplaced my note telling me where it was found. I never located it again. Maybe he was referring to the seven naked-eye planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab (now the Asteroid Belt), Jupiter and Saturn.

I am so pleased to be able to read the rest of this very interesting quote too.

> Paradise is how the LXX translate Gan Eden, the garden of eden.

Yes. I think the Garden of Eden (Paradise) on Earth represented the Heavenly Garden of God (Paradise). It is like the earthly and heavenly Zion, the earthly and heavenly Jerusalem.

> He also appointed the breastplate to be placed in the middle of the ephod,
> to resemble the earth, for that has the very middle place of the world.

This is new to me. It makes good sense. The twelve stones stood for the twelve tribes of Israel, of which Jerusalem is considered the middle of the world.

> Each of the sardonyxes declares to us the sun and the moon; those, I mean,
> that were in the nature of buttons on the high priest's shoulders.

This is new to me too. Thanks again for adding to my store of knowledge. Shalom

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Re: MORE than you want to know about Green FIGS!
Okay - here was what I found:
Burning Issue # 2 - GREEN FIGS - When do they grow?

FIG-TREE, properly translated: a native of the EAST; with broad shady leaves (1 Ki 4:25). The fig sprouts at the vernal equinox, and yields three crops of fruit, the first ripening about the end of June, having a fine flavor, and generally eaten green (Jer 24:2) The others are often preserved in masses or cakes (1Sam 25:18) ["The Bible Handbook," by Joseph Angus - ]

FIG, FIG-TREE - The fig tree (Ficus carica) is very common in Palestine. Deut. 8:8. Mount Olivet was famous for its fig trees in ancient times, and they are still found there. To "sit under one's own vine and one's own fig tree" became a proverbial expression among the Jews to denote peace and prosperity (1 Kings 4:25; Micah 4:4; Zech. 3:10) The fig is a pear-shaped fruit, and is much used by the Orientals for food. The young figs are especially prized for their sweetness and flavor. The fruit always appear before the leaves; so that when Christ saw leaves on the fig tree by the wayside (Mark 11:13), he had a right to expect fruit. The usual summer crop of fruit is not gathered till May or June; but in the sunny ravines of Olivet fig trees could have ripe fruit some weeks earlier (Dr. Thompson), and it was not strange that so early as Easter Christ might find the young eatable figs, although it was not the usual season for gathering the fruit. [Peloubet's Bible Dictionary]

FIG (Heb. TEENAH; Arab. tin, the ficus carica tree; Gr. suk , fig-tree; suka (sycamore) figs.) - Three kinds are cultivated: 1. The early fig (Heb. BOKKORE, early fig; BICCURAH, first ripe), ripe in June, green in color, - 2. The summer fig (KERMOUS), ripe in August, is sweet and the best, purple in color; and the green fig (pag) which remains on the tree all winter. (Beth-phage, place of figs), DEBELAH, cake of figs in 1 Sam. 30:12. It is still used in the East as the most convenient and the best poultice (2 Ki 20:7; Is. 38:21), It is one of the few plants which grow wild all over the country. The fig tree puts forth its earliest fruit buds before its leaves, and the foliage forms a very dense shade. "To sit every man under his vine and fig tree," indicates in the East the fullest idea of peace, security and prosperity. Jeremiah (as well as several other prophets) uses the fig through all of his books as an emblem of good or evil, and particularly in chapter 24. Jesus made frequent use of the tree or its fruit as an emblem or a means of instruction, especially in the case of the barren fig tree, as a lesson against deceit. It grows best near a fountain or stream. The sycamore fig grows to a large size in Palestine and Egypt - sometimes 50 feet in circumference -and is evergreen. The fruit is purple, smaller than the other kinds, sweetish and not so valuable. They ripen from November to June. The wood is used for many purposes, as it is almost the only large tree in Egypt.

[Please NOTE - many "un informed" authors use the term Palestine for Israel. I BELIEVE that this is a term that is anti-Semitic in so far as the Romans changed the name in order to completely erase all Jewishness from the area after 70 A. D.]. Regards

My reply

Wow! what a lot of good information. It is not more than I wanted to know. It is just right. Thanks a bunch. I always wanted to know what "sycamore fruit" was (Amos 7:14). Now you showed me what it really is to boot. Good work.

> The usual summer crop of fruit is not gathered till May or June

That fits Pentecost.

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I just wanted to say hello. I'm still reading your pro and con's. I know you have a crown in glory for all the info you have given the world concerning the Lord.

I have a question about Saturn. We see Saturn as planet that you could not live on nor do I believe we could send a ship to land on it. I know we have had fly bys that has sent pictures to us. Do you think that the Lord has blinded us so we can not see what may really be there?

I want to let you know also, that my some Jeremy is feeling a little better. He got a part time job after school and on weekends. His hasn't missed an hour of work.

I hope Ed is doing better and I pray you are too.

Please continue to be an inspiration to us. And thank you for your prayers.

My reply

I appreciate your kind comments, also for letting me know your diabetic son is feeling better. I pray that he will accept Christ too.

Ed is doing better. He's walking arm in arm with me instead of using the walker all the time.

Re: Saturn. It is light there, but the light is covered with thick dense clouds so we can't see the surface. It is so light weight that astronomers have thought it was just a ball of gas, but the Bible shows us that it is a rock.

Job 38:37,38 in the LXX says, "who is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has bowed the heaven down (not in the original) to the earth (i.e., as seen from Earth)? For it is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, and I have cemented it as one hewn STONE to another."

Isa. 33:15-17 (KJV) says, "He that walketh righteously, ...He shall dwell ON HIGH: his place of defence shall be the munitions of ROCKS: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the LAND that is VERY FAR OFF."

Job 37:18,21,22 in the LXX says, "Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ANCIENT HEAVENS...But the light is not visible to all: it shines AFAR OFF in the heavens, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north (upward) come the clouds shining like GOLD (Saturn has golden clouds): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty" (Christ, Rev. 1:8).

Job 36:32 (KJV) says, "With clouds he covereth the light: and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt."

Rev. 22:5 (KJV) says, "And there shall be NO NIGHT THERE; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light." Maybe "God is light" (I Jn. 1:5) is more literal than we might think. How about the Transfiguration?

Saturn also surprised the astronomers when they found out that it was radiating six times more heat than it gets from the sun. How? they don't know.

They also know that for some strange reason, Saturn, when viewed through haze, burns through and is visible when many other heavenly bodies are not. Why? they don't know. I think it may be because it has its own inner light. All other planets just shine by reflected sunlight.

The heavenly Zion seems to be "a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby" (Isa. 33:21). There is a river and trees there (Rev. 22:2). If there trees, there must soil for their roots, water and nutrients to make them grow. What will it be like? I don't know, but I do know what kind of taste the Lord has. He created the Earth. I like his handiwork. If Heaven is a better place, I bet we'll love it, and feel comfortable there. "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth" (Psa. 149:5,6).

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Teagues@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
What's the relationship between Angels/Fallen Angels and Demons.Can you recommend any other sites for study on this subject. Greetings from the UK. Yours. Colin

My reply

Greetings from California, USA. Isn't it wonderful how we can correspond with others all over the world?

It is my understanding that one third of the angels followed Satan (the dragon) in his rebellion (Rev. 12:4). They are called fallen angels or demons.

Those "angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6). These must be the bene ha elohim, sons of God, that took wives of all they chose in Gen. 6. The great day when these "locusts" will be temporarily set free (Rev. 9:3) is the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. I think it is the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). It is the day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth.

I don't know what site to recommend to find more on the demons, but I am sure that someone will know. I will post this with your email address so they can notify you.

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I was just reading Jim Bramlett's letter about your position and your link was posted so here I am.

I am not settled on any position.

What about the 2-8 year old children of sinner and saint over the entire world in light of the pre-trib rapture? Will all the children of the world be raptured?

My reply

I can't say for sure about the children, but I think that those under the age of accountability will be Raptured with their believing parents that are to be caught up. The ones belonging to unbelievers will probably stay here with their parents.

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I pray this note finds you and Ed both well and getting stronger every day. Someone sent me this url with an essay on the two witnesses and I would like your opinion of it if you have the time. I know your time is very precious so if you don't have the time that is ok too. I certainly don't want to burden you!

The article is here:
http://www.rmplc.co.uk/eduweb/sites/sbs777/snotes/note1204.html

You are in our prayers today! Love in Christ

My reply

Ed is getting stronger every day. However, when he awoke yesterday, he sounded hoarse, not a good sign. I was miserable all day yesterday, could hardly function. Then last night, I got a bad sore throat and a terrific headache. We both took crystalline Vit. C and Echinacea juice in a tumbler of water. I now feel much better, and he did not get sick at all. Praise the Lord.

From the SBS article on the two witnesses:
> I believe the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are not...two righteous
> men, past or present. The Two Witnesses are two mighty
> archangels who stand in the Almighty's presence. One is Gabriel and the
> other is probably Michael. They are the "two olive trees" pictured by Moses
> and Solomon standing on either side of the ark of the testament, which
> represents the very throne of God.

I disagree with SBS that the two witnesses are the archangels Gabriel and Michael. How in the world they can think that an archangel can be murdered is beyond me.

Zech. 4:14 says, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah stood by the Lord at the Transfiguration. They were both anointed with the Holy Spirit. We are not told that archangels are anointed with the Holy Spirit.

> Two Men (i.e. Enoch, Noah, Moses, Elijah, Daniel, John the Baptist
> etc.) At death, these men of God did not go directly to heaven to stand
> in Yahweh's presence. They were buried. The Saviour confirmed this when
> he said to Nicodemus:
> John 3:13 "... no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came
> down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Elijah was not buried. II Kings 2:11 says, "there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Elijah did not ascend by his own power. He was caught up by a power not of himself. The Son of man ascended under his own power.

> Who, then, are the Two Witnesses? The answer is: The Two Witnesses are the
> two anointed archangels (cherubim) who stand in Yahweh's presence. They are
> the highest ranking angels in the universe and are pictured by the two
> cherubim standing on either side of the ark of the covenant. Proof of this
> amazing fact now follows:
> Exodus 25:18-22 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work
> shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat...I will
> meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the
> two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony..."
>
> Many years later, when king Solomon built his famous Temple, which the
> Almighty graced with His sacred presence, these two cherubim were depicted
> as follows:...
>
> 1 Kings 6:23-28 "And within the oracle (the Holy of Holies) he made two cherubim of
> olive tree, each ten cubits high....And he overlaid the cherubim with gold."
>
> Did you notice their construction? The two cherubim were carved out of TWO OLIVE TREES:
> exactly the figurative term used in Rev.11:4 and Zech. 4:3 to describe the Two Witnesses.
> The inevitable conclusion must be, that the Two Witnesses, who are also referred to as
> two olive trees, must be the two archangels represented by the olive wood cherubim on
> either side of the ark of the covenant....

Exodus 25: 17 says of the originals in the Tabernacle, "make two cherubims of gold." Ex. 36:7,8 says, And he made two cherubims of gold, beaten out of one piece...out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims." No olive wood was involved there. The larger size in the Temple is probably why Solomon used wood overlaid with gold instead of making them out of solid hammered gold.

Cherubim are not archangels. They represent planets. Ex. 25:22 says, "I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims." I think that Heaven is Saturn, and that it is situated between two planets, Jupiter and Uranus.

The mercy seat probably represents Christ's heavenly throne, Saturn. It is between two planets, Jupiter and Uranus. The two stones in the Ark (coffin) were underneath the mercy seat. In the sky, hanging below Saturn and the the cherubim Jupiter and Uranus are two stones, asteroids, that will hit Earth on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 8:8,10).

The two stones will impact Earth because the commandments written on two stones have been broken. Zech 5:3,4 says of the flying rolling thing, "This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it. I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet that steals the church), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Beast, the Tribulation Pope); and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."

One stone will strike in the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5) and destroy the army under Gog that is attacking Israel (Ezek. 38). The other stone will destroy Babylon on the Euphrates River. At that time, Babylon will be the headquarters of the world government and the world church. The costliest city the world has ever known will be destroyed in one hour by a "stone like a great millstone" (Rev. 18:21).

Isa. 22:16,17 says, "What hast thou here? (Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-indwelt False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (asteroid)?...He (the LORD) will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house."

I found this Scripture in a strange way. I saw a tiny article in the Santa Ana Register that said that the Atomic Energy Commission had given President Johnson a 22' high statue of Isaiah. I thought, "Why Isaiah?" and ran to read Isaiah 22. The above is the astonishing thing I found.

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I want to thank you for your web site. My husband and best friend died in earlier this year and the days have been awfully hard. I have been encouraged by your site because it makes me hope that perhaps the time of reunion is near.

I have a question about Moses as one of the two witnesses. If we are raptured pre-trib (as I believe we will be) won't Moses also get a perfect body along with the rest of the dead in Christ? If so, how can he be killed during the tribulation? Thanks for you answer!

My reply

It is comforting to us to know that we will see our loved ones soon also. We think of that every time another one goes on ahead of us. I reminded my sister-in-law of that when Ed's brother died. I told her it was more like he took a vacation and we would join him there soon. He was two years younger than my husband and had open-heart surgery 15 years before his heart gave out.

I can't answer your question about Moses' body precisely. There is a mystery about it. Moses' death was unlike others. De. 34:5,6 says, "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."

There are occasional exceptions to the rule. The Lord is omnipotent. He can do what he wants. As a general rule, he said, "it is appointed unto men once to die" (Heb. 9:27), yet there is one generation that does not have to die. "Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:17).

Michael and Satan had a dispute about the body of Moses, maybe because Moses is an exception to the rule. Jude 9 says, Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he DISPUTED ABOUT THE BODY OF MOSES."

There is probably a connection with Luke 16:19-31. The rich man wanted Lazarus to go to his five brethren and "testify unto them, lest they also into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have MOSES and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them FROM THE DEAD, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not MOSES and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one ROSE FROM THE DEAD" (v. 28-31).

The Lord seems to be sending Moses back from the dead to prove that statement true. He gives men every chance to believe so that in the end, unbelievers are without excuse.

Elijah seems to be an exception too. He was caught up to Heaven without dying, yet he also comes back in a mortal body. There are some things hard to understand, but they will come true exactly as stated nevertheless.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-20-98