Pro and Con 209, Uploaded 11-3-98, PM
Incoming Email From CAPS BRO.
(I assume this was written to John Tng of the 5 Doves site)
John: If the Pentecost year was 1998 and started on Nisan 1, the 15th hour of the "day" would be 225 days using 360/24 =15 days per hour. The third hour of the day was 9 in the morning on pentecost. This was also the 15th hour of the day counting from 6 at sundown. To convert this for this year 225 days would be that third hour or November 8, 1998 as I count it.
More important as I see it is the 2000 years of wandering from the crucifixion, which seems to be 31 A.D. Adding the conversion of 360 prophetic years, it is about 1971.25 added to 31 which gives 2002. I consider the Hosea 5 & 6 two day scenario as indicative of this time until Israel would again say "Blessed is He who comes" and the true end to their wandering after rejecting him. Using 3.5 years for the tribulation, this puts the rapture in 1999. Also using this 3.5 years it is close to the 4 years that Christ looked for fruit during his 1st ministry, and also allows another 3.5 or 4 years of a ministry of tribulation. Also, Revelation 11, 12, & 13 all seem to be talking about the same 3.5 years from different perspectives.
The fact that Passover and Firstfruits parallel exactly in 1999 the sequence as in 31 A.D. it is possible that all of these fit for 1999. I think it is important to understand the 3.5 years both as the midpoint of the 70th week, and in actual fact the date of the week Wednesday as the date of the Crucifixion. Bullinger in his appendices to him Companion Bible has some interesting information on the three days and three nights if anyone is interested. Thanks for this forum for spreading the word.
My reply > Using 3.5 years for the tribulation, this puts the rapture in 1999.
Thanks for your input. I welcome discussion in agape love, whether we agree or not. We are both trying hard to understand. I don't agree on much except the Rapture in 1999. I don't think we are to figure everything in 360-day years, expecially the Seventieth Week of Daniel. We didn't have to figure in 360-day years for the first 483 years, so why would we have to figure that way for the last seven years of that series? Surely the Jews counted the first 49 years as was their custom.
Martin Anstey found an 82-year mistake in Ptolemy's chronology in the Persian Empire period. Anstey said the first year of Cyrus was BC 454. We know from the Lord himself that "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" (Dan. 9:25) was the decree of Cyrus.
Isa. 44:28 says, "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." How anyone can go by the decree of Nehemiah after reading that verse is beyond me. It seems that they would rather go by what man says than by what God says.
The number 483 - BC 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD. If you figure it by inclusive reckoning, it is 29 AD, and the Messiah was to be killed "AFTER" the 483 years.
> Revelation 11, 12, & 13 all seem to be talking about the same 3.5 years
> from different perspectives.
I don't think so. I believe chapter 11:1-13 is the first half of the Seventieth Week of Daniel, chapter 12 covers the last half, and chapter 13 covers the first half in verses 1-10, the last half in verses 11-18. Rev. 11:15-19 takes place on the 2300th day of the seven years. It is Coronation Day, the Day of God's Wrath and the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ.
You are trying hard, and are to be commended for applying yourself to studying the Bible in depth. Just pay more attention to Scripture than to what mankind writes about Scripture and you will get farther in your understanding. Sometimes, a writer sounds so reasonable as he presents his case that we fail to see the fallacy in what he says. In the Bible, every word in the original is pure truth.
Incoming Email It is hard to put into words what I have been experiencing in recent days. I've been interested in prophecy for many years. My excitement has grown as I've seen The Day drawing closer. This year I've been giddy with joy anticipating the soon return of our Lord.
However, the past couple weeks, as things have really heated up, my giddy joy has been replaced with a deep burden in my soul. The sense that cataclysmic events will be soon upon us is overwhelming. Hopefully, we won't be here to witness them, but others we love will be.
I sat in church yesterday and looked around at so many just "going thru the motions." My only thought was that so many who call themselves Christians are not ready for either the rapture or great persecution. (And surely one or the other is upon us.)
Israel became a nation in 1948. Then in 1967 prophecy was fulfilled in the Six Day War & then in 1973 in the Yom Kippur War. It was exciting in those days to begin to see things happen. Then it seemed every year, then every few months. . . until now it seems momentous things are happening every few hours. Can the contractions get much closer together before the baby is born?
May God grant us the strength and the wisdom to use what time we have to His glory.
Incoming Email FROM CAPS.....Some final comments re your views on Nisan 14 and 15. This should be clear. Your whole dating scheme hinges on you understanding -belief- that the passover lamb was killed on the 13th of Nisan. You say that Israel left Egypt on the 14th of Nisan. This is not true. Please read Numbers 33:3 "They set out from Rameses in the first month, on the 15TH DAY of the first month; on the day AFTER the passover...." This is exactly what the sequence of events recorded in Exodus 12:29-37 records. After eating the passover lamb on the night of the 15th and after the death angel had passed over at midnight the Egyptians asked Israel to leave---on the 15th. Notice Ex 12:37.."And the people journeyed from Rameses to Succoth.... Numbers 33 already proved that this was on the 15th.These are Bible facts. They are important.
Only the days mentioned in Lev. ch. 23 that were to be "holy convocations" were considered "high day sabbaths"--called so since, like the weekly Sabbath, no work was allowed. The 14th is not one of the days that no work was allowed on. It was the day of preparation--of killing the passover. You can try all you want to make the passover killing on the 13th, but the scriptures say otherwise.Jesus was killed at the exact time that the priests killed the lambs--on the 14th at evening right before the night portion of the 15th started. Only the 15th was a "high day sabbath".If your Bible says different than what Numbers 33:3 says, please let me know. They left on the 15th--not the 14th ! Does it make any difference? Yes, if you want to know what year the crucifixion was in. By the way, this year Nisan 14 is on a Wednesday---the day of the Passover. You wrote me .."You are thinking like a Gentile.." No, I'm fully aware of the night portion of the Jewish day coming before the day portion.
Also, note the following:
1. 40 years of Ezek. 4:6 fit exactly from 31 a.d. to 70 a.d. counting inclusively by Jewish standards. Remember the start would be early 31 a.d. Your date of 30 a.d. would result in 41 years, not 40.
2.You said that the crucfixion could not be on a Wed. because the ladies would have come that Friday to anoint the body. Have you thought about that. The Roman guard was posted on Nisan 15 and told to seal the tomb for 3 days. They were under penalty of death if that seal was broken. This explains why they waited to Sunday--because three days would then have been over and in all likelihood the guard would stop the watch on Sunday.The guard was still there on Sun. morning but the arrival of the women indicates that they expected the watch to stop later that day.
3.According to your infor. the 14th of Nisan could never be on a Thursday. That seems correct. It also RULES OUT the day of Thursday for the crucifixion.
4. "This is the third day since THESE THINGS happened.." was Sunday. However , the "last thing" that was "done" was the SEALING OF THE TOMB on the 15th. See Matt. 27:62-66. THIS was the final "THING" that was done re what happened in "these days" as Luke records.
5. The temple was begun in 19 b.c.--From 19 b.c. until 28 a.d. is exactly 46 years; with no year for 0 b.c. if Jesus Began his ministry in 27 A.D. then the first passover would have been in the spring of 28 a.d.
6. Also, from 12 A.d. to 27 a.d. is 15 years. The same 15 years mentioned in the gospels re the dating of John's and Jesus' ministry.
7. Finally, since Jesus was probably born in 4 B.C , he would have been "about 30 years old" in the Fall of 27 A.D.--(no year O ). It all fits like a glove ! Best wishes.
My reply > Numbers 33:3 "They set out from Rameses in the first month, on the 15TH DAY
> of the first month; on the day AFTER the passover...." This is exactly what
> the sequence of events recorded in Exodus 12:29-37 records.
The KJV says, And they departed (naca, go out, to remove a camp) from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover. They cleared out of Rameses on the 15th. That does not mean that they did not start to leave on the 14th. There were 600,000 men plus women, children and animals to move out.
Ex. 12:42,43 says, "It is a night (the night portion of the 14th) to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them OUT from the land of Egypt: this is THAT NIGHT of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations. And the LORD said unto Mosea and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the PASSOVER."
On this night, they were told to eat the passover "with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover" (Ex. 12:11). They were ready to begin to move out that night.
The death of the firstborn was at midnight. The only midnight of Passover is that of Nisan 14. Midnight is the 6th hour of the 24 that make up Nisan 14. Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and told them to go during that night soon after midnight (Ex. 12:31). "And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders" (Ex. 12:34). They did not stand there with all this load on their shoulders until the 15th. They started to move out on the 14th. It took awhile. The last one left Rameses on the 15th. The area called Goshen encompassed more than just the city of Rameses.
> After eating thepassover lamb on the night of the 15th and after the death angel
> had passed over at midnight the Egyptians asked Israel to leave---on the 15th.
The Passover was the 14th. They ate the passover on the night of the 14th near sunset, and the death of the firstborn was at midnight (only the 6th hour) of the 14th. Pharaoh asked them to leave on the night of the 14th. The daylight portion of the 14th was still future at that time. You are skipping a day in your thinking. Put it on paper; graph it out and it will come clear.
> The 14th is not one of the days that no work was allowed on. It was the day
> of preparation--of killing the passover.
Lev. 23:4,5 says, "These are the feasts of the LORD, even HOLY CONVOCATIONS (all of them), which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the FOURTEENTH DAY of the first month AT EVEN (at sunset as the 14th began) is the LORD'S PASSOVER. AND of the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall DO NO SERVILE WORK THEREIN." The Passover was an holy convocation, and no servile work was to be done on it. The 13th was the day of preparation.
Ex. 12:6 says, And ye shall keep it up UNTIL the fourteenth day (not through the 14th) of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening (lit., between the evenings, i.e., between 3:00 and 5:00 PM on the 13th)." The lamb had to be ready to be eaten as the 14th began at 6:00 PM.
> Jesus was killed at the exact time that the priests killed the lambs--on the 14th at
> evening right before the night portion of the 15th started. Only the 15th was a "high day
Jesus died about 3:00 PM as the priests were killing the lambs--on the 13th right before the night portion of the 14th started. The Passover on the 14th was a "high day sabbath."
> Does it make any difference? Yes, if you want to know what year the crucifixion was in.
Be sure that you let things fall where they will and not try to make things fit a preconceived notion. The Crucifixion could not have been before 30 AD for the right to crucify Him themselves was taken away from the Jews in 30 AD. It could not have been later than 30 AD for there were those 40 years appointed to Judah for their iniquity before Jerusalem was destroyed (Ezek. 4:6). Remember also that the number 40 means probation and testing.
> this year Nisan 14 is on a Wednesday---the day of the Passover.
And last year it was on Friday. All the days lined up last year as in 30 AD. Nisan 13 was on Thursday, the 14th on Friday, the 15th on Saturday, and the 16th on Sunday.
> 40 years of Ezek. 4:6 fit exactly from 31 a.d. to 70 a.d. counting
> inclusively by Jewish standards. Remember the start would be early 31 a.d.
> Your date of 30 a.d. would result in 41 years, not 40.
And if not counted by inclusive reckoning, there are exactly 40 years.
> The guard was still there on Sun. morning but the arrival of the women
> indicates that they expected the watch to stop later that day.
The women may not have realized that the guard was set at all.
> According to your infor. the 14th of Nisan could never be on a Thursday.
> That seems correct. It also RULES OUT the day of Thursday for the crucifixion.
No it doesn't, because Thursday was Nisan 13, the day of preparation. "They...went not into the judgment hall...that they might eat the passover" (Jn. 18:28).
> "This is the third day since THESE THINGS happened.." was Sunday. However, the "last
> thing" that was "done" was the SEALING OF THE TOMB on the 15th. See Matt. 27:62-66.
> THIS was the final "THING" that was done re what happened in "these days"
The third say SINCE included Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Mt. 27:62-64 says, "Now the next day (Nisan 14), that followed the DAY OF THE PREPARATION (Thursday, Nisan 13), the chief priests and Parisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day" (Friday, Saturday and Sunday).
> The temple was begun in 19 b.c.--From 19 b.c. until 28 a.d. is exactly 46
> years; with no year for 0 b.c. if Jesus Began his ministry in 27 A.D. then
> the first passover would have been in the spring of 28 a.d.
The temple was begun in BC 20/19. The first Passover of His ministry was in 27 AD.
> from 12 A.d. to 27 a.d. is 15 years.
AD 12 was the first year of Tiberius. Therefore 26 AD was his 15th year. Graph it out and see.
> Jesus was probably born in 4 B.C , he would have been
> "about 30 years old" in the Fall of 27 A.D.
I think he was born in BC 5, was visited by the wise men when about two years old in BC 3, and then Herod died in BC 1. Agape.
Incoming Email Re:confession
Dear Sis Agee, Please read Matt 10:32, then Romans 10:09 - 10. The Lord's covenant of salvation is to believe in Jesus and confess him before men on the Earth. In John 12:42-43 some were ashamed to confess before men. No one can confess Jesus without the Holy Spirit.
Mark 8:38 should be considered also. All eventually will confess -Phil 2:10. We need to tell someone on the Earth about our faith in Jesus. Read Acts 8: 36-37. Thanks, agape
My reply I'm telling as many as I can reach of my faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Glad you are doing the same.
Incoming Email Had you ever thought the Lord's day might be the sabbath - Friday at sunset - Saturday? I don't know if it fits, but certainly a spiritual "rest" from our labors would be a nice fulfillment of the Sabbath day of rest! And I keep thinking about the fact that Jesus calls Himself the Lord Sabaoth. He must be using this phrase for a reason. Nothing in scripture happens by accident.
The Sabbath is still the Lord's day in my mind....In Chrisian Love
My reply > Had you ever thought the Lord's day might be the sabbath
It is possible, but this terminology is not used to represent Shabbat anywhere else.
> "rest" from our labors would be a nice fulfillment of the Sabbath day of rest!
It does represent the sabbatismos, the millenial rest.
Sabaoth basically means armies. How about this one? Shabbat (seventh day) and Shabbtai (Saturn, seventh lamp on the candlestick, has seven rings, and is the slowest moving of all the planets)....Agape
Incoming Email I'm back from vacation about 3 days...finally had a chance to catch up on email and web surfing. What a blessing you continue to be for me and all your readers. Your web site continues to be a source of hope that reminds and reinforces the fact of the blessed hope. I believe I shared with you the loss of our son. Nothing is the same for us here on earth. Oh how we long to be with our eternal family in the presence of Lord Jesus. I pray that the Lord does not tarry and comes for his Church on Pentecost 1999, or sooner. No need to respond. Just a big thanks from someone who recognizes your own sacrifices.....a thanks for all that you do to keep the Hope on fire in many people's lives. I will pray tonight for your continued strength and stamina in your internet ministry until Jesus comes. I pray that you are richly blessed....having earned many crowns/rewards to cast at our Saviors feet. God Bless
Incoming Email MARILYN-HERE IS SOME INFOR. I SENT TO THE 5 DOVES SITE. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE RESURRECTION SEQUENCE OUTLINED BELOW RE THE DEAD IN CHRIST AND "THOSE WHO REMAIN" AND THE FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS ??
To: JOHN TNG FROM CAPS....John...Numbers 33:3. This verse shows that Israel left Egypt on Nisan 15---after eating the passover lamb on the night portion of the 15th....after the killing of the lamb on the 14th of Nisan --the daylight portion before the night of the 15th started. Remember the night of Jewish "days" was the start of the day. I believe this year's dates(actual days of the week) are the same as those at the time of the EXODUS and as those at the time of the CRUCIFIXION. Nisan 14 is in 1999 on Wednesday. If this is the same as the EXODUS,then the passover lamb would have been killed on Wed. Nisan 14 at around 3:00 p.m. Israel would have eaten the lamb the night of the 15th of Nisan(Wed. night), and the death angel would have passed over at midnight. Israel then would have started leaving Egypt early Thurs. morning the 15th of Nisan. I feel it is very significant that this coming Passover season "lines up" with the SAME days of the week as the original EXODUS and CRUCIFIXION.
I am very pleased to see that Julienne "sees" the truth re Daniel ch 9. Most people assume that the 70th week is still in the future simply because most books teach that. It is very profound once you realize that Jesus was "cut off" in the middle of the literal week and in the middle ot the 70th week. I still believe that the remaining 3 1/2 years are to be fulfilled at the end of this age. I feel it is no coincidence that Rev. chs. 11, 12, and 13 all speak of these 3 1/2 years yet to be fulfilled. All of Daniel 9 will not be fulfiled, re the 70 weeks, until all "vision and prophecy" has been "sealed up" and the "most holy place" is anointed. See Dan. 9:24 I feel these items of the prophecy will not be completed until Jesus returns at the conclusion of the remaining 3 1/2 years---which is the same as the length of the tribulation period.
Re Dan. 9:26 my Oxford KJV version has an alternate translation of the Hebrew for this verse. It reads as follows: "And after the 62 weeks the Messiah shall be cut off, and shall have nothing, and the Jews shall no longer be his people, and the Messiah's future people shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." The margin then notes that the "future people" are the "gentiles". This fits exactly with what happened when Israel rejected Jesus. Note what Hosea 2:23 says.."and I will say to those who are NOT my people(i.e. Gentiles), 'You are (now) my people." Also, Julienne is exactly correct re Jesus being the one who "confirmed" the Abrahamic covenant. Read Romans 15:8.."Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, TO CONFIRM the PROMISES made to the fathers."
John, you asked me several weeks ago about the possibility of the "dead in Christ" being resurrected before those who "remain", i.e. are still alive, at the time of the Rapture, and then possibly being caught up together. At first I thought that sounded a little far out. Now, I think it is entirely possible. Think about this. Why in Matt.27:52-53 does it record the graves of many being opened at the time of the crucifixion....and, later "many BODIES of the SAINTS that slept arose and came out of the graves AFTER Jesus' resurrection , and went into the holy city, and appeared to many." Why did God cause this to happen?? The book of NEHEMIAH which means the " CONDUCT OF THE LORD" records this in Neh. 2:11-12.."So I came to Jerusalem and was there three days. Then I AROSE in the night, I AND A FEW MEN WITH ME." Vs. 13 says.."I went out by night..." I believe this is all typology of what Jesus did at the time of the resurrection.
Now think about this. Jesus pictures the DEAD IN CHRIST being raised FIRST on Sat. evening. The BODIES(i.e. a resurrection to physical not immortal life) of the saints being raised that same night is done to represent "those who remain and are alive", see I Thes. ch 4. Then the next day, Sunday Nisan 18 the day of FIRSTFRUITS they are ALL (JESUS, already in a glorified body-picturing the dead in Christ being raised first) and the just resurrected SAINTS of Matt 27:52-53 (picturing those who are still mortal and remain until the rapture) CAUGHT UP TOGETHER AS FIRSTFRUITS !! This would then explain WHY those SAINTS were resurrected--to be a type of those church members who are alive and remain until the rapture ! Of course when they(and us) are caught up they are CHANGED TO IMMORTAL BODIES. WOW ! The analogy fits. Since this occured in 31 a.d on the Feast of Firstfruits it may well be indicative of when the Rapture will actually happen.
Finally, if that is not enough to think about, consider this. As I pointed out before, Song of Sol. is read at the time of the Passover season .This year it is read on Nisan 17--the day of the resurrection of Jesus. You did a study on 117--the 1st month being Nisan, the 17th day ='s 117. Guess how many verses there are in the Song of Sol. ? That's right ! 117 verses. There are also 470 Hebrew words used in the text--47 of which are ONLY used in this book. CAPS. God bless your work.
My reply > Jesus was "cut off" in the middle of the literal week and in the middle ot
> the 70th week. I still believe that the remaining 3 1/2 years are to be
> fulfilled at the end of this age.
Here is the way I understand Dan. 9:26-27. It says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (karath, killed) but not for himself:
"and the people (Romans) of THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME (the False Prophet, who will take over from the Beast, the Tribulation Pope, in Mid-Trib) shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (in 70 AD);
"and the end (of the age) thereof shall be with a flood (no flood in 70 AD, but there will be in 2007 AD, when the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5), and unto the end of the war (Armageddon) desolations are determined. And he (the pronoun refers back to the last mentioned, the "prince that shall come," i.e., the False Prophet) shall confirm (gabar, be stronger) the covenant with many (the united nations) for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (after 1260 days, Rev. 11:3) he (the False Prophet) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (he will sit in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" II Thess. 2:4), and for the overspreading of abominations he (the FALSE PROPHET) shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined (the 7 trumpet judgments) shall be poured upon the desolate (lit., desolator, the Satan indwelt False Prophet)."
I did not mean to capitalize False Prophet above. It just happened. Neither the caps lock nor shift key was down.
> Hosea 2:23 says.."and I will say to
> those who are NOT my people(i.e. Gentiles), 'You are (now) my people."
The Lord is talking to Israel, not Gentiles. She is the rejected wife, but to be restored. Verses 15 and 16 say, "when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be at that day saith the LORD, that thou shalt call be Ishi (my husband): and shalt call me no more Baali (my lord)."
> Julienne is exactly correct re Jesus being the one who "confirmed" the Abrahamic covenant.
Dan. 9:27 does not say the "Abrahamic" covenant. It is not talking about it here.
> The book of NEHEMIAH which means the " CONDUCT OF THE LORD" records this in > Neh. 2:11-12.."So I came to Jerusalem and was there three days. Then I AROSE in the night
Three days equal Thursday, Friday and Saturday, Then Jesus arose Sunday night. The "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40) are Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day) and Sunday (night).
> Why in Matt.27:52-53 does it record the graves of many being opened at the time
> of the crucifixion....and, later "many BODIES of the SAINTS that slept arose and
> came out of the graves AFTER Jesus' resurrection , and went into the holy city,
> and appeared to many."
At the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened. That does not say that the bodies came out at that time, only that the graves themselves were opened. The saints "arose and came out of the graves AFTER Jesus' resurrection." It could not be otherwise for Rom 8:29 says of the "Son, that he might be the FIRSTBORN among many brethren."
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