Pro and Con 216
Uploaded 11-18-98, PM
Incoming Email From Jean Kincaid:
Dear Marilyn, I read about your concern in the latest P and C this AM.
Actually, I'm feeling much better. During the cath they discovered around 3 or 4 places where there was about 50% occlusion, not enough to do angioplasty or by-pass. Apparently when overly stressed I experience spasms which temporarily close off the vessels at the site of the occlusions. If this lasts long enough a clot forms and an MI occurs. The need here is to prevent the spasms. The chest pain used to be called Princemetal, now referred to as variant angina. No problems lately. Everyone has been taking great care for me. Glad that Ed is doing so much better. God bless. Jean
My reply Thank you Lord, and I pray that you will prevent future spasms. In Jesus' name, Amen.
Incoming Email Many, many thanks for your faithfulness in trying circumstances! I pray for you and Ed often!!
Could you recap for us the logic of the Nov. 24, 1998 date for the rapture? Or could your reprint or site the Pro /Con number for the discussion? God Bless
My reply Thanks for your prayers. We need them. Ed is short of breath at times. I'm going to try to get the doctor to see him tomorrow. I want them to measure his blood oxygen level to be sure he is ok without oxygen as he starts Rehab.
See Pro and Con 211 for the discussion on the Nov. 24 date someone proposed.
Incoming Email The following news clip came from the Van Impe web site:
GREAT PYRAMID TO BE CROWNED WITH GOLD FOR MILLENNIUM CELEBRATION, November 16, 1998
The Associated Press reported that the Great Pyramid in Egypt has been without its stone top that completes its triangular shape for ages. The government, however, plans to make it whole again by placing a "gold-encased capstone" on top as midnight strikes on Dec. 31, 1999 to ring in the new millennium. It will only be in place that one night. The pyramid was reportedly built in 3,000 BC.
Marilyn, If you've studied "Masonic/New Age" goals you know that the missing top to the pyramid will only be in place for the commemoration of the beginning of The New World Order (as they see it). That's why the pyramid on the reverse of US $1.00 bill has the top suspended in mid air above the pyramid, to be lowered into place at the beginning of their New Order for all of mankind.
It looks as if the powers to be plan to cap the pyramid the moment Y2K strikes!! God Bless you and your work
My reply Jesus is the true corner stone. Eph. 2:20 says, "Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." I Peter 2:7 says, "the stone which the builders disallowed (rejected, Psa. 118.22), the same is made the head of the corner."
This may have an application to the headstone of the pyramid. The reason it was rejected was because a mistake was made in laying out the foundation of the pyramid. If I remember right, it was off by 4." Thus, when they got to the capstone, it didn't fit.
It could picture Christ being rejected. Now, if they are going to put a cap on the pyramid, it just might depict the False Prophet being accepted instead of Christ. The cap being golden may be to indicate that the False Prophet is deity, but he is Satan indwelt instead.
Isa. 8:12-14 seems to foreshadow our days. It says, "Say ye not, A confederacy (qesher, an unlawful alliance, treason), to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy: neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid. Sanctify the LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6) himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem."
Nimrod started the Tower of Babel. The Beast and False Prophet will finish it when they rule the coming One World Government. But "the stone...cut out of the mountain without hands" will break it all in pieces (Dan. 2:45). The only One World Government we are supposed to have is with Christ at the helm.
Incoming Email Concerning the parable of the fig tree, in which it is stated that "this generation shall not pass", I understand that this applies to Israel. The tree was reestablished in May of 1948, and the leaves were acquired in 1967. Therefore, the generational span of forty years would proceed to the year 2007. Is it possible that this fig tree is the same one referred to in the parable of how G-d came to the tree for three years and was ready to cut it down? If these years are tens of years, this would mean that the tree has been visited every ten years since 1967. Upon finding no figs in 1977, 1987, and 1997, the tree is now in a ten year period of being dunged. It is interesting to note that in this parable, it does not say that the tree WILL be cut down. If the tree bears figs, then this wrath will not occur. I believe that the Bible states that there comes a period in the 7 year tribulation where 144,000 Jews spread the word. This seams to imply that the tree will eventually bear fruit, but only in the later portion of the tribulation.
Also, the Song of Solomon scripture stating something like: and come away. For all the winter is past, the rain is over and gone, the flowers appear on the earth, a time of singing of birds has come, and the voice of the turtle dove can be heard in OUR land. The word OUR seems to state this verse is intended for the Israelites (Jews). What our your thoughts on this?
Lastly, a number of possible dates have been selected for the rapture (May 31, 1998, etc.). This seems to tie into scripture as we have been told all things, so we know of the date. However, there are so many possibilities that we don't KNOW the rapture WILL occur on a specific date, only that the date is a possible candidate. What are your thoughts?
> Is it possible that this fig tree is the same one referred to in the parable
> of how G-d came to the tree for three years and was ready to cut it down?
I think it is the same fig tree, Israel (Joel 1:7; Hos. 9:10, Ezek. 36:8; Jer. 24:5).
> If these years are tens of years, this would mean that the tree has
> been visited every ten years since 1967. Upon finding no figs in 1977,
> 1987, and 1997, the tree is now in a ten year period of being dunged.
I never thought of ten-year periods, but 1977, 1987, 1997, and 2007 come out even. Maybe it has a double application. If the seven good years started with the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993, the seven bad years would start in 2000 and end on Tishri 1 in 2007. If the parable of the barren fig tree applies to one year periods, it could be that the three years are 1998, 1999 and 2000. The extra year to dig about it and dung it would be 2001, Pentecost to Pentecost, or Feast of Weeks. I think the Seventieth Week of Daniel (the Tribulation) will start on the Feast of Weeks in 2001. This places the extra year to dig about Israel and dung it in the first year of the seven bad years. Not bad. That makes sense. That gives Israel one more prod to produce fruit before it is too late. I think that once the Tribulation begins, it will roll on to the climax.
1967 + 40 years = -----------------------------------------------------------------2007
1967 + 4 ten-year periods-----------1977---------1987----------1997----------2007
7 good yrs:
3 yrs, look for figs---1998--1999--2000
1 yr, dig about and dung it----------------2001
7 bad years----------------------------------2001-2002-2003-2004-2005-2006-2007
If Christ came to check to see if Israel was worthy on Pentecost in 1998, and if the Bride has to wait one year to prove she is a virgin (Esther 2:12), the Rapture on Pentecost in 1999 would make sense too. We'll have to wait to be sure.
> It is interesting to note that in this
> parable, it does not say that the tree WILL be cut down.
It does come close though. Zech 14:8,9 says, "two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire."
> 144,000 Jews spread the word. This seams to imply that the tree will
> eventually bear fruit, but only in the later portion of the tribulation.
Yes, 144,000 Jews make it by the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They will be taken to Heaven with the Tribulation saints. The earthly remnant will then all be born in a day (Isa. 66:8). I think both events will take place on Sept. 13, 2007. And so all Israel will be saved in that day.
> the voice of the turtle dove can be heard in OUR land. The word OUR
> seems to state this verse is intended for the Israelites (Jews). What
> our your thoughts on this?
All these clues apply to the land of Israel. We are also grafted in.
> However, there are so many possibilities that we don't KNOW the rapture
> WILL occur on a specific date, only that the date is a possible
> candidate. What are your thoughts?
Because of Song of Solomon 2:10-14, and for other reasons, I think the Rapture will happen on Pentecost. The hard part is to know which Pentecost. I'm hoping the 12 months of Queen Esther's purification applies and it will be on next Pentecost, but I can't say for sure. At least that seems most likely to me at this point.
Incoming EmailBeen catching up on the pro's & con's. Glad to see Ed is doing better. Well, Mom and I are headed for Israel Monday, November 23rd--keep us in your prayers. If you get this before then, let me know if there is something you'd like brought back--Mom and I are professional shoppers :) We'll be going with Perry Stone so I'll let you know if I learn anything interesting (and I'm sure I will). It would be pretty cool if the Lord came back on the 24th just as we're flying over Israel wouldn't it? Oh, well, a girl can dream!! Take care
My reply I prayed for a safe trip for you both. I have no money for anything but the bare necessities, but if I could ever go, I'd be asking people questions, especially concerning the clues in Song of Solomon 2:10-14. Are there flowers, turtledoves, green figs and grape blossoms all at Pentecost? When do the wildflowers dry up? Are the turtledoves there from April to October? When is the wheat harvest over? Information is more important to me than things.
Incoming Email Hi! (From Finland)
Just heard from the news that the Leonid meteor shower appears to "come from the head of the zodiac Leo" (compare to Lion of Judah) Could this be significant?
My reply I hope so. One star in Leo is Denebola, the judge or Lord who comes quickly.
Incoming Email ABC News: The Second Coming! (From: Jim Bramlett)
Believe it or not, last night on television, ABC News had a report on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, with a special explanation of the Rapture! It was a part of a larger report this week on the end of the millennium. Surprisingly, the report was relatively straightforward and not in the context of ridicule as secular news reports typically do on Biblical matters. They even quoted the highly respected Charles Swindoll of the Dallas Theological Seminary, who said, "This isnšt some wild idea, some fanatical extremism. This is solid truth from the Bible."
The excellent treatment may be because ABC has a religion editor, Peggy Wehmeyer, who I am told is a true believer. I have also heard that anchor Peter Jennings may have had a recent encounter with the Lord. Let us pray for both as they influnce many millions.. The transcript of last night's program is at
The Lord is even using a secular, worldly TV network to convey His message that His return is very, very near!!!
Incoming Email Re: ProCon 251 (215) Reproof:
I recently visited your web site for the first time. A friend had recommended I check it out and so I did!! It seems you have been very busy with your work and studies in the Word of God and this, is commendable. I can't say I share the same opinion on some matters, only because I have not gone to the scriptures myself on these matters to "see if these things were so".
While checking a recent "ProCon" I did notice a response you had to an email with regard to the Passover and the time of Jesus' death and resurrection.
Far be it from me, my sister in Christ, to bring this issue to you in haste or bitter retort as I had witnessed in some of the smaller numbered ProCons - that is not my style; nor is it one of many truly godly kin.
I believe you are a woman of God and have gone to great lengths to study God's word to the best of your several ability. And with that in mind, can I quote your text from ProCon215 please?
"I think Jesus was captured, tried, killed and buried all on Thursday, Nisan 13, 30 AD, the Day of Preparation"
Calculating all of the events that led up to the Lord's Death, from all the gospel records will not allow this statement to be so - and please allow me to present to you exactly why - from the Holy Scriptures. Firstly, Proverbs 12:1 "Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge; but he that hateth reproof is brutish". I do say, that I wish to pass knowledge and understanding your way, as much as you wish to do so at your web site; so, again, this is not intended to be done with a selfish heart.
We know that Jesus has the "Last Supper" with his disciples - Matthew 26:20 declares "when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve". Of course, even was a time when the sun began to set in the sky, to state an hour of the day would only be a daft guess - suffice is to say, it was becoming night time.
Verse 30-31 "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. Then Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this NIGHT: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered". Then our brother Peter took his stand against such an accusation and Jesus declared in v34 " ...THIS night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice". In v 35 Peter and all the disciples pledged their loyalty and in v 36 they had reached Gethsemane. Jesus went to pray and asked the disciples to "Sit here while I go and pray yonder".
I believe you have begun to see that surely Jesus was arrested toward evening in the Garden; he was then presented to Caiaphas the high priest, where there were scribes and elders present ( verse 57 ). Jesus also appreard before Annas that same night ( John 18:13-23). Peter followed closely, for the Lord prophesied that he would deny him "this night" and while Jesus was being spat upon and buffeted by his accusers in verse 66; Peter denied the Lord (verses 69-74) culminating with the cock crowing in verse 74.
Jesus was arrested at night. Was presented before Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin as well as Annas, in a "night trial" - then Chapter 27 begins by stating, "when the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders too counsel against Jesus to put him to death".
Having made this point clearly, let me please use my notes to summarize the events, if I may, for your "edification" - I anticipate you will want to "search the scriptures" to see that these things are so.
1. Jesus arrested at night
( Matthew 26:47-56 ) ( Mark 14:43-52 ) ( Luke 22:47-53 ) ( John 18:2-12 )
2. Appeared before Annas, Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin that same night.
( Matthew 26:57-75) ( Mark 14:53-72) ( Luke 22:54-65) ( John 18:24-27 )
3. Appeared before Sanhedrin again for the "morning trial" around daybreak
( Matt. 27:1) (Mark 15:1) (Luke 22:66-71)
4. Appeared before Pilate Tuesday morning after daybreak
(Matt. 27:2) ( Mark 15:1) (Luke 23:1-6) ( John 18:28-38 )
5. Appeared before Herod Tuesday morning (Luke 23:7-12)
6. Appeared before Pilate again, this time, Pilate appealed to the Jews on three separate occasions
( Matt 27:11-25 ) ( Mark 15:2-14) (Luke 23:13-23) (John 18:39 - 19:16)
7.Sentenced by Pilate around noon ( John 19:14 ) on Tuesday
( Matt 27:26 ) (Mark 15:15) (Luke 23:24,25) (John 19:16)
8. Tortured and Mocked by the soldiers in judgement hall
(Matt 27:26-31) ( Mark 15:15-20)
9. Led out for crucifixion the following morning (Wednesday Nisan 14)
( Matt 27:32,34) ( Mark 15:20-23 ) (Luke 23:26-32) (John 19:16,17)
10. Hung on the cross from approximately 9am ( the 3rd hour of the day) until approximately 3pm ( 9th hour of the day ) Wednesday, Nisan 14.
(Matthew 27:35-49) (Mark 15:24-36) (Luke 23:33-45) (John 19:18-29)
11. Died about 3pm
(Matt 27:50-54) (Mark 15:37-39) (Luke 23:45-48) (John 19:30-37)
Now I realize, from reading your response to that ProCon that you don't hold the same "days" as my notations above may have made mention. This is not a point of debate for me - my true reproof was to show you that Jesus could not have been "captured, tried, killed and buried all on Thursday, Nisan 13, 30 AD, the Day of Preparation" regardless of what day it was he died. Whether you hold to a Wednesday death and burial or a Thursday - he was tried and captured two days prior in the evening; tried again the next morning and throughout the day. He we persecuted the remainder of that "day" ( Tues or Weds ) and then crucified the 3rd hour of the day the following day, dying at approximately 3 pm.
I am sure you are aware that a Jewish day begins at the same time a Jewish day ends.... at sunset. When the sun sets, say Monday, it is now Tuesday. Nisan 14 starts at sunset of Nisan 13. I believe the scriptures teach that Jesus died on Nisan 14 ( the day of the Passover sacrifice) approx. 3pm ( the 9th hour of day ). Jesus was buried BEFORE sunset on Wednesday because Nisan 15 was the Passover Feast, a holy day, and as you mentioned, there was to be no work that day so they had to get the bodies of all the dead off the crosses and prepared.
I also believe that "three days and three nights" represent a complete 72 hour period. Wednesday, prior to sunset, Jesus was buried. Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, Jesus was buried at 5:30. This would mean a complete 72 hours later, Jesus would be resurrected from the dead, making it Saturday, just before sunset.
Matthew 28:1, "In the end of the sabbath...." now I know you are a Greek fan, you will notice this is better translated, "Now late on" [epiphosko] the sabbath. With a little diligence we can all learn this truth. This would be the weekly Sabbath or Saturday.
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn ( it was getting toward dusk) toward the first day of the week ( which was Sunday ) came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
The word "see" here in Greek is also interesting, it is "theoreo" which is "to gaze on". They were not intending to see the body or anoint it.
So these two women came to the tomb as the weekly Sabbath ( Saturday ) was drawing to a close. The sabbath would end at sundown on Saturday. At sunset, the first day of the week began (Sunday).
Matt 28:2 says "and behold, there was a great earthquake; for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat upon it." Since these events occurred late on the Sabbath, shortly before sunset, this further documents from the Scriptures that Jesus Christ rose late that Saturday afternoon, the third day after his death - 72 hours EXACTLY from the time of his burial.
If nothing else, you would have to agree that Jesus was not captured, tried, beaten and crucified within the same 24 hour period or one day.
God Bless you and all your work in the Lord.
My reply I sure appreciate the tone of your email. We are all in this together trying hard to figure out what the Lord meant when he told us these things. It is impossible to not disagree on some things, but if we discuss them in a civil manner, and give each other's ideas careful consideration, we will get farther in figuring things out. No one person knows it all.
> We know that Jesus has the "Last Supper" with his disciples - Matthew 26:20
> declares "when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve".
Let's assume that it was 6:00 PM, the very BEGINNING of Thursday and see if things work out. Remember that there are first 12 hours of night, then 12 hours of day.
> Verse 30-31 "And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of
> Olives. Then Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me
> this NIGHT...THIS night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice"...
> Jesus also appreard before Annas that same night ( John 18:13-23)...
> Jesus was arrested at night. Was presented before Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin
> as well as Annas, in a "night trial"
I think this all took place Thursday during the 12 hours of night.
> then Chapter 27 begins by stating, "when the morning was come, all the
> chief priests and elders too counsel against Jesus to put him to death".
The 12 hours of night are over, and this begins the 12 hours of day.
> 3. Appeared before Sanhedrin again for the "morning trial" around daybreak...
> 4. Appeared before Pilate Tuesday morning after daybreak...
> 5. Appeared before Herod Tuesday morning (Luke 23:7-12)...
> 6. Appeared before Pilate again...
> 7. Sentenced by Pilate around noon ( John 19:14 ) on Tuesday
I think this all took place Thursday morning between 6:00 AM and 9:00 AM. John 19:14,16 says, "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified." The time here is Roman time. Mark 15:25 gave the Jewish time: "And it was the third hour (9:00 AM, and they crucified him." Peter gave the equal Jewish time on Pentecost. Acts 2:15 says, "it is but the third hour of the day" (9:00 AM, counted from 6:00 AM).
> 9. Led out for crucifixion the following morning (Wednesday Nisan 14)
> ( Matt 27:32,34) ( Mark 15:20-23 ) (Luke 23:26-32) (John 19:16,17)
If you say that he was sentenced by Pilate at noon on Tuesday, why did you skip to Wednesday for the crucifixion? What took place during the intervening 21 hours? (6 hours of day left on Tuesday, 12 hours of night on Wednesday and 3 hours of Wednesday morning.
I think he was crucified at 9:00 AM on Thursday. It was only the third hour of the day. There was plenty of time for all events.
Mark 15:15-25 says, "Pilate...delivered Jesus...to be crucified....And they bring him unto the place Golgotha...And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. And it was the third hour (9:00 AM), and they crucified him."
> 10. Hung on the cross from approximately 9am ( the 3rd hour of the day) until
> approximately 3pm ( 9th hour of the day ) Wednesday, Nisan 14....
> 11. Died about 3pm...
I agree with the times, but I think it was Thursday, Nisan 13, 30 AD.
> I believe the scriptures teach that Jesus died on Nisan 14 ( the day of
> the Passover sacrifice) approx. 3pm ( the 9th hour of day ). Jesus was
> buried BEFORE sunset on Wednesday because Nisan 15 was the Passover Feast
The scriptures teach that Jesus died on the preparation day. John 19:14-16 says, "it was the preparation of the passover (i.e., Nisan 13), and about the sixth hour (9:00 AM Roman time)...Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified." He died at approximately 3:00 PM when the passover lambs were being slain in the Temple so they could be roasted and eaten after the Passover began at 6:00 PM. I believe he was buried before 6:00 PM that same day, Thursday.
> I also believe that "three days and three nights" represent a complete 72 hour
> period....Jesus would be resurrected from the dead, making it Saturday,
> just before sunset.
We have to think like the Jews. To them, part of a day was counted as a day. We have to start the count with day. I think it was Thursday (day), Friday (night then day), Saturday (night then day), and Sunday (night). Nehemiah 2:11,12 ("conduct of the Lord") says, "I came to Jerusalem, and was there three days, And I arose in the night."
> Matthew 28:1, "In the end of the sabbath...." now I know you are a Greek fan,
> you will notice this is better translated, "Now late on" [epiphosko] the
> sabbath. With a little diligence we can all learn this truth. This would be
> the weekly Sabbath or Saturday.
> In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn ( it was getting toward dusk)
> toward the first day of the week ( which was Sunday ) came Mary Magdalene and
> the other Mary to see the sepulchre
It literally says, "IN the end (opse, Thayer: "the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath, i.e., at the early dawn of the first day of the week") of the sabbaths (Passover and Unleavened Bread/Saturday) as it began to dawn."
> The word "see" here in Greek is also interesting, it is "theoreo" which is "to
> gaze on". They were not intending to see the body or anoint it.
Lu. 23:55,56; 24:1 says, "And the women...prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day (Saturday) according to the commandment. NOW upon the first day of the week, very early in the MORNING, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared."
> If nothing else, you would have to agree that Jesus was not captured, tried,
> beaten and crucified within the same 24 hour period or one day.
I can't agree. Everything fits into one 24-hour day. However, we can agree to disagree agreeably. Each must be fully persuaded in his own mind. In agape love
Incoming Email just read your notes on the rapture WOW! We serve an awesome God. Oh I sincerely hope it's soon.
One question. You mention the promised land, going to heaven early. There are no giants in heaven, does this not mean our individual 'promised lands' whatever the Lord has promised each one of us?...love in Christ
My reply I sure hope the Rapture is soon too.
I think our promised land is Heaven. How do you know that there are no giants in Heaven? Since the hybrid offspring of angels and women in Gen. 6 were giants, angels just may be larger than we are. They are certainly much stronger than we are.
Pro and Con 217 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: email@example.com
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960
© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee