Pro and Con 220

Uploaded 11-25-98, AM

Incoming Email

Marilyn, while perusing your latest P/Cs, something suddenly occurred to me.

If a person would take the time, your P/Cs, both incoming input and your replies, constitute one of the best and most in-depth Bible studies one could find anywhere. Unfortunately, I have not had the time to follow every writer's line of reasoning, nor yours, but I am amazed at the scope and depth of the subjects included. I cannot say that what I read is always 100 percent accurate nor that I necessarily agree with everything, but it is always astute and worthy of further study and consideration. Your replies are never arbitrary, but always based on your understanding of God's Word.

As an added special blessing, your pages always display your own graciousness, gentleness and Christ-like humility. Too often, Bible and prophecy writers project an arrogant, dogmatic, and know-it-all attitude. I have never detected that in you.

You are doing a great service and are much appreciated. I am sure all your readers join me in saying to you, "GOD BLESS YOU, MARILYN!!!"

My reply

Wow! thank you very much. It came at a good time too.

I don't know how people can think they know it all. There is so much to figure out, so much that we don't know, it's enough to keep one humble. I can just see us in Heaven saying to ourselves, "Oh yeah! why didn't I see that? and that? and that? and that?" The very fact that the Bible is so tightly packed with layer after layer of information shows that God HAD to do it. If man even tried to approximate that amount of information, he would fill volume after volume after volume to just get it into words. God did it all in one thin book that covers approximately 7000 years of time. He told us how to be saved, gave us a manual on how to live, gave us tons of history, and still was able to work in so many types and so much prophecy that it is astonishing. Besides our Saviour, the Bible is the greatest wonder of all time. Any way you look at it, it is His story, isn't it.

Incoming Email

Jim Bramlett wrote: Re: Jewish Roots of Thanksgiving
The below information about Thanksgiving was forwarded to me and I thought you would find it interesting. In various ways, the Father, by His Holy Spirit (Ruach haKodesh) seems to be reminding believers in His Jewish Son,Yeshua, of the Jewish roots of our faith.
The Roots of Thanksgiving

America's first Thanksgiving was very likely inspired by the Jewish Festival of Sukkot, also known as the Festival of Booths or Tabernacles.

The Puritans who founded Pilgrim America were "deeply rooted in the Hebraic tradition," (Marvin R. Wilson , "Our Father Abraham"). When they sailed to America, the Puritans likened their journey to the "promised land" to the Exodus of the Jews out of Egypt.

The Puritans, most of whom had Hebrew names, regarded themselves as "the spiritual heirs of the Old Testament," (Max Dimont, "Jews, God and History"). "In fact, there was even a proposal that Hebrew be made the official language of the Colonies, and John Cotton wanted to adopt the Mosiac Code as the basis for the laws of Massachusetts," (Dimont).

The Pilgrims rejoiced about their survival in the new world and declared a time of thanksgiving in order to praise God "for his goodness and favour," (The First Thanksgiving Proclamation -- June 20, 1676).

Likewise, the festival of Sukkot is a time for rejoicing to commemorate the redemption of Israel from Egypt as well as remember God's providence during the many years of wandering through the desert. (Lev. 23; Deut. 16;14) This festival also is an agricultural holiday which celebrates the harvest in the Land of Israel, (Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, "Jewish Literacy")

"The American pilgrim fathers were, in all likelihood, inspired by the biblical account of Sukkot to pattern the holiday of Thanksgiving after it," (Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, "How Firm a Foundation - A Gift of Jewish Wistom for Christians and Jews," pg. 93)

Interestingly, Sukkot appears to be the only Jewish festival that Gentiles will also be expected to observe in the Messianic era (the Millennium). "Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths," (Zech. 14:16)
Note: I have heard the charge that the Puritans may have embraced "replacement theology" (that the church totally replaced Israel in God's plan and that Israel or the Jews no longer have a place), but I am not sure. However, one popular author (his name escapes me) says he found references to a restored national Israel as a sign of the Lord's soon return in their 300+-years-old writings. If true, this would deny the replacement theology charge, or perhaps like today the Puritans were also divided on the issue.

Happy Thanksgiving!!! If you think that Thanksgiving meal is good -- just wait 'til the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Save some room!

My reply

I'm so glad you sent me this. I had never run across this kind of tie-in. I'll show you why I am so tickled to learn this.

There is an interesting verse tucked away in II Samuel (7:23,24) that has always intrigued me. I keep wondering if it refers to the United States--"one nation under God"--"In God We Trust," etc.

It says, "what ONE (echad, united) NATION IN THE EARTH is LIKE thy people, even LIKE Israel (established as 'one nation under God,' but made up of areas assigned to different tribes), whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and TO DO FOR YOU (Israel) great things and terrible (awe-inspiring), for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods? For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God."

A companion passage is in I Chron. 17:21: "what ONE NATION IN THE EARTH is LIKE thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt."

There are similarities between Israel and the United States. Both were established by people who made a long journey for religious reasons. Both were established as "one nation under God." Israel replaced the Canaanites, and "thou, LORD (Yahweh), art become their God," superseding the Canaanite gods. The United States replaced the Indian nations, and "thou, LORD, art become their God," superseding the Indian gods.

I understand that there are those that will say that there is no other nation like Israel, but I continue to wonder and watch. Our nation has ties to Israel like no other that I know of. I wonder what we just might be destined "TO DO FOR YOU (Israel) great things and terrible (awe-inspiring), for thy land." I wondered all during the 100 days of "Desert Storm." I wondered when we intercepted missiles on their way to Israel. I wondered when we told Israel to stay out of it and let us take care of it. I wondered when the Oslo Accords were signed here. I wondered when the Wye Memorandum was signed here.

Happy Thanksgiving.

I can't wait to see if my dream of eating a meal in Heaven in a huge building with long picnic tables with snow-white linen tablecloths was true as to the details. I saw a boy there that signed a letter to me as "Your son in God" just a short time before he was killed by a land mine in Viet Nam. He had dated our daughter before he left. I wrote him letters, and I wish I had saved copies of them. They were a handwritten connected Bible study, and yet I didn't preach at him. The Lord had to have been using me to tell him what he had to know without offending him. I stuck in sticks of chewing gum and envelopes of Kool-Aid.

I had two dreams. In this one, I saw this boy at a table across the center aisle, but did not talk to him. In the previous one, Ed and I were approaching the entrance to this same huge building, and this boy ran up to greet us and hugged me. Hope that comes true when we get there.

Incoming Email

Re: The End of the Age
Dear Marilyn, A few years ago I read the subject book. It changed my life. I was on a course of self destruction and your book aided in opening my eyes. It seems there are some people who are making merriment at your expense, but you helped to save me and I'm grateful.

My reply

Praise the Lord. Thank you so much for sharing this with me. This makes all my hard work and hard times worth it. I don't mind those who make merriment at my expense. A long time ago, I asked the Lord what he wanted me to do and echoed Isaiah's, "Here am I; send me" (Isa. 6:8). The whole time, I have known that if I obeyed the Lord to "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not" (Jer. 50:2, the verse that I saw a rectangle of light on), I would have to face flack. It would have been a whole lot easier to just be a housewife, raise my two kids, and not publish. However, no matter what, I feel that I have to stay the course and do what I think the Lord wants me to do. I stay in his will the best I know how, and this in the face of the enemy's testing.

All along, I had prayed, and prayed, and prayed that the Lord would protect me from error. When the Rapture did not take place last Pentecost, I felt that then this too must be in his plan. I had never once thought of a delay. During all of these years of intensive Bible study, I know that he triggers your mind somehow to help you find what he wants you to understand. Yet, not once did I think of a delay being possible. I didn't research it at all. When it was the same for Jack Langford (who arrived at the same date a different way) I thought, "Then it must be for a reason." I remembered that I had said many, many times that I would like to be a wake-up call for people to get ready. I thought, "Maybe that is just what it was intended to be." If that's the way it is, so be it. I'll find out in glory. For now, I keep studying and writing, the two things I told the Lord I would continue to do after I saw the light on Jer. 50:2.

I think I may have missed the Rapture by one year. See the details at:

Hang in there and stay ready, filled with the Holy Spirit, no matter what happens. If sin rears its ugly head, use I John 1:9 and get it out of the way, quick. We are as lambs among wolves, but these lambs draw their strength from the great shepherd, the Creator himself. Thank God he that is in us is stronger than he that is in the world.

Incoming Email

Re: 14/15 etc
Hi! (From Finland)
Would somebody please tell me what is the main point of the relatively heated and manyworded argument of what happened on what day? As far as I see it the most important thing is that He rose from the death on the third day. What is it that is the key point of this debate that has been going on for some time?
Is it of major importance concerning rapture?

My reply

It indirectly has to do with the general timing of the end times, because CAPS thinks the Crucifixion was in 31 AD instead of 30 AD.

CAPS said,
> They left on the 15th--not the 14th ! Does it make any difference?
> Yes, if you want to know what year the crucifixion was in."

It is important to know what year the Crucifixion was in because there were 40 years from the Crucifixion in 30 AD to the burning of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. This was prefigured by Ezek. 4:6: "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

CAPS also said,
> 40 years of Ezek. 4:6 fit exactly from 31 a.d. to 70 a.d. counting
> inclusively by Jewish standards. Remember the start would be early
> 31 a.d. Your date of 30 a.d. would result in 41 years, not 40.

There are times that inclusive reckoning is used and times that it is not. I think that since the figuring of the 483 years of Dan. 9:25 does not have to be figured by inclusive reckoning, the 40 years do not, either. From the decree of Cyrus in BC 454 to 30 AD was 483 years (483 - 454 + 1 because there was no zero year = 30 AD).

Jerusalem was given 40 years of probation then, and I think she has been given 40 years of probation now, from the time that she captured the rest of Jerusalem in 1967 to 2007 (the Jewish 5728 to 5768).

Jesus told the Pharisees, "All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did in 70 AD, demonstrating that a generation is to be counted as 40 years. This ties in with the fig tree parable in Mt. 24:32-34, where Jesus said, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

If we were to say that the 40 years should be counted inclusively from 1967, we would end up with 2006 (or 5728 + 39 = 5767). There is no 2300-day period to the Feast of Weeks six years before that. Also, 5767 is not a Jewish leap year. Therefore, there would not be 7 months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1 (Ezek. 39:12). That year just doesn't work out.

Using 5728 + 40 = 5768 works perfectly. It is a leap year and it has the necessary 2300-day period from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 preceding it.

If we accept 5768 as the end of the shortened Tribulation and subtract the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14, we know that the Rapture must take place before that time, which I think is the Feast of Weeks in 2001. Then there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

This can be seen because The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written as if the Rapture was at hand, and the ten kings in Rev. 17:10 have not yet been crowned at the time of the Rapture. As the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, they are crowned. This moves the Rapture back some. Thus we are nearing takeoff.

Do you have something you would like to discuss?

Incoming Email

How are you and Ed? Hope all is well.

Concerning P&C 219: I am writing this to head off the incoming e-mails screaming at your interpetation in II Thess. 2:3 of the word "apostasia" as "departure". They will open their Greek Textbooks and insist it means "a falling away" of the faith of the Church (believers).

HELLO EVERYBODY!!!!! The organized church has ALREADY fallen away. Many, and I repeat MANY demonations have made doctrine the fact that one does not have to believe in the Resurrection to be a member of their church or be a Christian. II Peter 2:1 says they would be "...even denying the Lord that bought them..". If one accepts the "falling away" theory, then that has already happened. There is nothing more to argue about.

However, following "a falling away first..", comes the last part of the sentence, ", AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." (emphasis mine). Since the question posed to you was "Just where in the Bible does it say that we get raptured before the last seven years?", I think this is an incorrect reference as to the question. This passage is referring to the "day of Christ" which is the pre-wrath Rapture, the day of the Wedding. This day will not come ", except..........that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." I believe the first Rapture happens either before or simultaneously with the removal of the Holy Spirit that "hindereth" the revealing of the anti-christ. (Verse 6-8)

To me, the verses that remove any doubt as to the Rapture happening BEFORE the tribulation are (Rev 3:10 NIV) "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." And, (Luke 21:36 NIV) "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Please let me know what you think. Agape to you and Ed

My reply

Ed has spells of being short of breath. It may be because he is fighting off a cold, or because he got a flu shot Nov. 4. The shortness of breath is intermittent and of course did not do it in the doctor's office, but can last an hour at a time. At the doctor's, his blood oxygen level was ok. Otherwise he is improving little by little. He goes to the neurologist tomorrow to check on the foot slap on the leg where they took out the vein, also to check at the cardiologist's to see if they have heard when he starts Rehab. He passed the treadmill test so they should admit him. The wheels grind slow. I am doing as well as can be expected.

> The organized church has ALREADY fallen away.... If one accepts the
> "falling away" theory, then that has already happened. There is nothing
> more to argue about.

I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for pointing it out.

> This passage is referring to the "day of Christ" which is the pre-wrath
> Rapture

The Day of Christ is the Rapture, but instead of the "day of Christ," II Thess. 2:3 should read "day of the Lord." According to the note in Green's Interlinear, the Greek word should be Kuriou, Lord, as per Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregalles, Alford and Wadsworth.

The note in my Scofield Bible margin says, "Day of the LORD," and it was changed to "day of the Lord" in the New Scofield Reference Edition. The note in the margin says, "Virtually every ancient ms. reads the Lord." The introduction says, "The theme of Second Thessalonians has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2, where "day of Christ [I Cor.1:8, note] is at hand" should be "day of the Lord [Joel 1:15; Rev. 19:19."

Others follow suit. The NIV translates it as "day of the Lord." The Lamsa Bible has "day of our Lord." The Jerusalem Bible has "Day of the Lord." The NASB has "day of the Lord." The Concordant Literal New Testament has "day of the Lord."

The millennial Day of the Lord will not come "except...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." And the son of perdition will not come until the restraining of the Holy Spirit is removed when the Bride of Christ is caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> I believe the first Rapture happens either before or simultaneously with the
> removal of the Holy Spirit that "hindereth" the revealing of the anti-christ.

I agree. Right now, we are the salt that is retarding the growth of evil, because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I like the direct way the Berkeley Bible puts it: "the hidden principle of lawlessness is already at work; only, THE ONE WHO IMPEDED UNTIL NOW MUST FIRST BE GOTTEN OUT OF THE WAY. Then shall the lawless one be revealed" (II Thess. 2:7,8).

I like Rev. 3:10 and Lu. 21:36 also.

While I have the Berkeley Bible version in hand. I think it's Song of Solomon 2:10-13 is interesting. It says, "Arise, my love, my beauty, and come along with me; For lo! the winter is past, the season of rain is over and gone. The flowers appear on the earth; the season of singing has come; the voice of the turtledove is heard in our land. The fig trees are putting forth their figs, and the vines coming into blossom are giving forth their fragrance."

Whoa. I am trying to think what CAPS said. Did he say that autumn and winter are one season and spring and summer the other? I'd better look it up.

Here it is. In Pro and Con 197, he said, "The Heb. word for "winter" is Strong #2779 which means "the crop gathered; by implication the autumn and winter season (together) ...The NEW UNGERS BIBLE DICT. says on pg.1061 that there are "2 seasons...rainy and dry...Toward the END of OCTOBER heavy rains begin to fall. It opens the agriculture year. Till the end of Nov. the average rainfall is not large but it increases through Dec.,Jan., and Feb...begins to ABATE IN MARCH and is practically OVER BY THE MIDDLE OF APRIL "

The thought just crossed my mind. If it rains until Mid-April, that would put rain in his summer (spring/summer) season. If his winter (autumn/winter) is over, that would eliminate his winter. If the season of rain is over, his summer would be eliminated also. There would be no season left. That can't be what it means. Why didn't I think of that before?

Anyway, the Berkeley version's "vines coming into blossom" is a pretty good clue and one that fits Pentecost beautifully.

Incoming Email

Part of your problem, and why you will be wrong no matter what date you pick for the Rapture, is your understanding of the "tribulation" is wrong. Your understanding is carnal and temporal, rather than spiritual and eternal. The great tribulation was the whole time Israel was under the law. It ended at the Cross, when Christ "took away" the first covenant of works, or the "law", and "established" the second covenant of grace. See Hebrews 10:9-10.

What greater tribulation can there be than to be under the law of God, "cut off" from God, under the "curse" of God, and needing a Saviour? God sent the second Adam, Messiah, to remove the law, to fulfill it, and to take it away. You are looking for a physical, temporal period of tribulation, when in fact it is a spiritual tribulation, in spirit and not in the flesh.

Everyone that has never become "born again" is still under the law, and thus in "great tribulation". When we are brought into the new covenant in Christ, then the tribulation has ended and can never return.

Revelation 7:14: "... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb."

Every believer has white robes washed in the blood of the lamb, thus every true believer has come out of "great tribulation".

I know you cannot receive these truths yet but anything is possible with God. Regards

My reply

I call the Seventieth Week of Daniel the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27). It is still future. It can't be over for the "great mountain burning with fire" (Rev. 8:8) has not yet been cast into the Mediterranean Sea (Zech. 2:4,5). The "great star (aster, star or asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) has not yet fallen on Babylon (Rev. 18:21). The globe has not yet been turned upside down (Isa. 24:1). Egypt has not yet been hurt so badly that no one can live there for 40 years (Ezek. 29:11).

Incoming Email

From Jim Bramlett: Re: History made: New Moon declared, after almost 2000 yrs
Weekend News Today: By Andra Brack: Source: IsraelWire: Fri Nov 20 , 1998

On Thursday, the first day of the Jewish month of Kislev, a group congregated to declare the new moon, in accordance to Jewish law as it was practiced during the period of the Holy Temple. "For the first time since the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem two thousand years ago, a Rabbinical Court today, declared the new month at the gates of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. In the presence of a contingent of Jews who profess the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, the month of Kislev was declared by the Court." At the head of the Court presided Chai Vekaiyam leader Yehuda Etzion.

Etzion, a leader of the campaign to permit Jewish prayer services on the Temple Mount, proclaimed that the declaration of the new moon by a Rabbinical Court at the entrance to the Temple Mount. This was a major step towards the reclamation of the Temple Mount into Jewish hands, a step which will lead into the rebuilding of the Third Temple.

Etzion quoted Maimonides, who stated that "the proclamation of the months by a Rabbinical Court is an obligation for every generation and that reliance on the calendar alone presented serious problems in the observance of Jewish holidays." Organizers explained that this was by no means a symbolic gesture but a genuine effort to renew the ancient practice of "declaring" the new month as was done by the rabbinical court in the time of the Temple.

[Editor: More and more Israel turns back to God as the world turns its back more and more to Israel!]

My reply

Thanks for this information. I had not heard it yet.

   Pro and Con 221   Or Return  Home

Contact me for more information at:

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960

© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 11-25-98