Pro and Con 221

Updated 12-2-98, AM

Incoming Email

Re: Many thanks!
Amen and amen to the person who wrote the first incoming mail on P&C 220. I could never have written the same message so well. Many of us owe so much to your efforts. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

My reply

Thank YOU. How did I get so lucky to get all this nice email when I was feeling a bit teary-eyed.

Incoming Email

On the eve of Thanksgiving, I'm counting my blessings. I'm truly thankful for your website and all the patient and extensive work you have done. I've learned so much and I'm so grateful for your work. I wish you and Ed, and the rest of your family a lovely and blessed Thanksgiving. No need to answer.... God bless.

Incoming Email

Jim Bramlett wrote: Re: November 24: "Delayed Departure"
Oddly, on Tuesday, November 24th, as I usually do I picked up my "Our Daily Bread" daily devotional and surprisingly discovered the topic for that day was "DELAYED DEPARTURE."

Philippians 1:23-24 is quoted: "I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."

The writer says, "To us, the departure may seem delayed. To God, each of His children is brought home right on time... GOD'S TIMING IS PERFECT."

How long a delay? In God's eyes it is already a done deal. "...though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry" (Habakkuk 2:3).


My reply

You triggered me to look up the two tarrys in Hab. 2:3. They are two different words in Hebrew. The first, in "though it tarry," is mahahh, to question, hesitate, be reluctant, delay, linger, stay selves, tarry. It is used in Gen. 19:16. While Lot "LINGERED," the angels "brought him forth, and set him without the city," and said, "Escape."

The second, in "it will not tarry," is achar, to loiter, be behind, procrastinate, tarry (longer), be late (slack), continue, defer, hinder, stay (there).

It all seems to mean that though it lingers, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry longer, or be late.

My guess is that this extra year is the 12-month purifying of the virgins to prove that they are wise virgins, and that it was in the plan all along. The 12-month purification in Esther 2:12 was recorded long ago. I just failed to consider it as a possibility today. I should have looked into it, but you can't do what you don't think to do. Nothing triggered me in that direction. Now, I don't see why not. The parable of the ten virgins should have done it, but it didn't. Hindsight is better than foresight.

Esther means hidden, secret, or star. I think this was one hidden secret I missed. There are so many hidden secrets in the Bible, I don't think we will ever uncover them all in this life. That is what makes the search so exciting. Just picking up a different version at odd times, you may stumble on another profound secret. I don't know about you, but I get so used to the wording of the KJV that it sometimes opens my eyes to something new to just read a different translation. It can make something jell that was vague before.

Hab. 2:2-4 in the Berkeley Bible says, "Write the vision! Make it plain upon tablets, so he who runs by may read it! However, the vision waits for its appointed time; it hastens toward the end; it will not lie. If it lingers, wait for it; for it will certainly come; it will not lag. Look, his soul is puffed up; and is not upright in him! But the righteous shall live by his faith. But wine is treacherous to a haughty man; he can not endure."

The last part suggests Mt. 24:48-51: "if that evil servant (foolish virgin, Laodicean) shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder (cut him off), and appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the hypocrites (and "unbelievers," Lu. 12:46): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Hab. 2:3,4 in the Jerusalem Bible says, "For the vision is for its appointed time, it hastens towards its end and it will not lie; although it may take some time, wait for it, for come it certainly will before too long. You see, anyone whose heart is not upright will succumb, but the upright will live through faithfulness."

Here we can see a good reason for a winnowing period. We must be the upright who endure, the ones upon whom he does not have to come as a thief (I Thess. 5:4).

Rev. 3:2,3 (KJV) says, "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and HOLD FAST, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

"Be patient therefore, brethren (believers), unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman WAITETH for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (rain starting Tishri 1) and latter rain (starting Nisan 1). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts; for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned; behold, the judge (Christ) standeth before the DOOR" (James 5:7-9).

The Lord says, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee (Philadelphians) an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name....Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (hupomone, hopeful endurance, patient continuance, or WAITING), I also will keep thee FROM (Green's Interlinear: ek, "out of") the hour of temptation (pierasmou, trial, Tribulation) which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev. 3:8-11).

Note: James 1:3 in the Berkeley Bible says, "Consider it wholly joyful (I haven't, and confess that; forgive me Father; in Jesus' name, Amen), my brothers, when you get involved in all sorts of trials, well aware that the TESTING OF YOUR FAITH brings out steadfastness. But let steadfastness have full play, so that you may be completed and rounded out with no defects whatever."

Eph. 5:25-27 says, "Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Incoming Email

Re: Pro & Con 203, on page 8 of 10:
My husband seems to think I have either "Marilynitis" or "Raptureitis" or both! I agree with the opening Email in P & C 220. Reading your web pages certainly encourages me to spend more time in the Word. The Rapture is always in my thoughts. It must be eminent; world conditions are racing towards the Tribulation. I think "nothing more needs to happen", then something does. I'm also wondering how severe are the judgements of God going to be on our beloved country. I've recently read the O.T. I & II Samuel, Kings & Chronicles. God really impressed on me how when the King/leader was Godly, the nation was, and when he was ungodly the nation also was and God ALWAYS brought judgement on the nation, and I weep for America.

"Whatever Jesus was referring to with His "as the days of Noah were" comment, it surely appears from His description that it does NOT have to occur on a Jewish feast day. The final fulfillment of those specific Jewish holidays may be just for the Jews. The "as the days of Noah were" event may be for the Gentiles -- such as the Gentile church, when God "TAKES OUT" of the Gentiles a people for His name" (Acts 15:14).

When I read this, I thought of Romans 11:15-23. I wonder how and or if it applies to the Rapture being on (or not on) a Jewish feast day.

Maranatha! In His everlasting love

My reply

On Pro and Con 203, Jim Bramlett said,
"However, the other day it suddenly dawned on me that in Noah's day there were NO Jewish feast days! Noah preceded the Mosaic Law by many years. That means that this event spoken of by Jesus may NOT be on Jewish feast day as we have been expecting! Makes sense, since Noah was not a Jew (which did not exist until Abraham).

"If not on a Jewish feast day, when might this event be? Well, if "as the days of Noah were," it might be on the one date mentioned in the Noah account: the 17th day of the second month (Chesvan), the day the flood began (Genesis 7:11), which in 1998 is November 6. Or, it might be seven days earlier, the day that Noah entered the ark (vs.7-10), which in 1998 would be October 30-31. Or, as a Gentile event, it might be any day.

"Whatever Jesus was referring to with His "as the days of Noah were" comment, it surely appears from His description that it does NOT have to occur on a Jewish feast day. The final fulfillment of those specific Jewish holidays may be just for the Jews. The "as the days of Noah were" event may be for the Gentiles -- such as the Gentile church, when God "TAKES OUT" of the Gentiles a people for His name" (Acts 15:14)."

> When I read this, I thought of Romans 11:15-23. I wonder how and or if it
> applies to the Rapture being on (or not on) a Jewish feast day.

Since the Rapture did not take place on 17 or 27 Cheshvan, we need to take another look at this. Your passage in Romans does show that we are grafted into the olive tree. We "then partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree."

I think that the Lord made his Plan of the Ages before time began and is working it all out according to that plan. It seems certain that he set the feasts on the days that important future events would take place. Since the Pentecost events happened to the Church in 30 AD, why wouldn't Pentecost apply to the Church later?

Take a look at Gen. 7:2. It says, "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens." This was before Abraham, and before Moses. How did Noah know which beasts were clean and which were unclean? Also, Gen. 4:1-5 tells of Cain and Abel's offerings. How did Cain and Abel know how to sacrifice to the Lord? There obviously was some information given the patriarchs before Abraham's time. It must have been given to Adam, who lived 930 years and was contemporary with Lamech, Noah's father. Enoch was also on Earth at that same time, and he was a prophet (Jude 14). At the time of Adam's death, all these were living, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah and Lamech. Adam must have passed on to them a lot of information that is not directly told us.

By Abraham's day, mankind had already been tried in three dispensations, Innocence, Conscience and Human Government. God dealt with Gentiles about 2000 years before he dealt directly with Israel. He then dealt mainly with Israel for 2000 years. After that, he has been dealing with the Church, which is both Jew and Gentile. In spite of the Lord's dealing mainly with different groups of people at different times, all of us descended from Adam and are dealing with the same Lord, who is working out his plan he made before time began.

I have an idea that these are HIS feasts, not just Israel's. Lev. 23:2 says, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the FEASTS OF THE LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, EVEN THESE ARE MY FEASTS."

Catching up the Bride of Christ seems to me to be such a major event that it would have had a feast day set on it. These are God's people, precious believers that have accepted Christ wholeheartedly, the harvest the Lord has been patiently waiting for. Isn't this what it is all about? What is more important that has to do with mankind?

In Acts 15:13-18, James showed that the outcalling of the Gentiles agrees with the promises to Israel. He said, "Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David...I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. KNOWN UNTO GOD ARE ALL HIS WORKS FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD (ages)."

In Noah's day, Noah and his family knew when the Flood was coming. They were able to escape it. The rest of the world did not believe it was going to rain. They had never seen rain. Today, some people say there is not going to be a Rapture. They have never seen such a thing. However, that does not keep it from taking place exactly as planned.

Noah was accounted worthy to escape. Luke 21:36 says to us, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Incoming Email

I have never emailed before I just purchased a computer at home  but I have always read your P&C's during my lunch hour at work.  I just wanted to say to everyone be kind to one another and always render opinions in love.  I have seen some very unkind P&C's and as we are all christians we are all Christ's family as well.  I found my way to Christ a year and a half ago and I don't know how I went without him for 33 years.  I wait for him to come at all times.  Please pray that I always do his will and I will be praying for you and Ed as well.  Keep up the good work for as long as we keep our eyes on Him, they don't seem to stray as much to the world around us.  You don't have to answer this, I know you have so many to address, I just wanted to let you know I am praying for you and all my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  God Bless!!

My reply

Thanks. I'm praying.

Incoming Email

Re: Ditto
I reiterate the thoughts of the correspondant in PC 220 who wrote, "You are doing a great service and are much appreciated. I am sure all your readers join me in saying to you, "GOD BLESS YOU, MARILYN!!!"

Incoming Email

Marilyn, This is forwarded for your consideration: Subject: The Two Witnesses
Many Christians have opined who the two witnesses of Revelation are.  Well, I guess now you can count me in that group to.

I had not really given much though to this (after all, is it really all that important?), but upon reflecting in the Word the other night I guess you could say I had a "Eureka" experience...  Of course, I am just human and subject to error, as we all are.

It's pretty clear who at least one of these two witnesses is -- Elijah.  Most people believe the other witness to be Enoch or Moses.  Enoch -- because he never died, and we are all appointed to die once (Heb. 9:27).  Moses -- because one of the miracles performed includes turning water to blood:  a feat Moses performed in Egypt.  The problem is that if you apply the reasoning used for choosing Enoch, to Moses, it doesn't fit since Moses also died.  Also recall that Moses was forbidden to go into the promise land because of disobedience.  Therefore, Moses cannot be the other witness.  As for Enoch, I suppose it's possible, but I have another idea.  See if you see what I see.

Rev. 10:1 "And I saw another mighty messenger come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was on his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 10:2 And he had in his hand a little scroll open: and he set his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the earth, 10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roars: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again, and said, Go and take the little scroll which is open in the hand of the angel which stands upon the sea and upon the earth.10:9 And I went to the messenger, and said to him, Give me the little scroll. And he said to me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make your belly bitter, but it shall be in your mouth sweet as honey. 10:10 And I took the little scroll out of the messenger's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. 10:11 And he said to me, You must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

Another person who was told to eat a scroll that was "sweet as honey" was Ezekiel -- and he was to prophesy the judgment of the Lord.  Ezek. 2:7 - 3:4.

Now for some explanation.
Zech. 4:10-14:  The two olive trees are on either side of the lampstand of seven lamps.  The two olive trees are the two anointed (witnesses), and the seven lamps are the seven eyes of the Lord (seven thunders / angels of the seven churches).

Now, if Elijah is on one side of the lampstand (representing the old covenant) then who is on the other side (representing the new covenant)? Remember... there are seven churches separating the two witnesses! Read Zechariah!.

Who is the second witness?
Go back and read Rev. 10:11.  "And he said to me, You must prophesy again before (in front of) many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings."

John was told he would prophesy the coming judgment of the Lord just as Ezekiel was told -- when they both ate the little scroll.  I suspect the reason it was bitter to John's stomach was because these judgments are going to be like nothing the world has ever seen before.

I am sure there will be many who say it must be Moses, but remember -- the religious leaders were looking for Elijah to come in the flesh first before the Messiah.  As Jesus pointed out, Elijah did come but they did not recognize him.  The religious leaders were looking for the physical rather than the spiritual.  The spirit of Elijah was with John the Baptist. (Matt. 17:10-13).

This same may hold true for this "mystery" witness.  If it is possible for John the Baptist to have the spirit of Elijah, then it is possible for the Apostle John to have the spirit of Moses!

Oh well, just a thought.

My reply

> John was told he would prophesy the coming judgment of the Lord just
> as Ezekiel was told -- when they both ate the little scroll.

Eating the little scroll did not make Ezekiel come back as one of the two witnesses, he went on to prophesy in his own time. I think it is the same with John. He continued with chapter 11f.

Rev. 10:10 in the KJV is not clear. It says, "Thou must prophesy again BEFORE many peoples, and nation, and tongues, and kings." Scofield's note at "before" says, "of peoples." Green's Interlinear makes it clear. It says, "You must again prophesy IN REGARD TO many peoples and nations and tongues and kings."

John had just finished writing about the end of the shortened Tribulation. The "great mountain burning with fire" (Rev. 8:8) had been cast into the Mediterranean Sea. The "great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) had destroyed Babylon (Rev. 18:21).

At this point, it must have seemed to John that it was just about all wrapped up. This judgment had fallen. He had heard the noise heard around the world (Jer. 25:31). But, no, he is now to "prophesy AGAIN." He is to go back to the beginning of the Tribulation and fill in details not covered before. Rev. 11:1-13 covers from the first of the Tribulation to Mid-Trib. Rev. 11:15-19 is parenthetical. It tells what happens in Heaven the day the asteroid impacts Earth. Chapter 12 covers the last half of the Tribulation. Then chapter 13:1-10 describes the first half of the Tribulation; 13:11-18 describes the last half.

> Moses, it doesn't fit since Moses also died.  Also recall that Moses was
> forbidden to go into the promise land because of disobedience.
> Therefore, Moses cannot be the other witness.

Those to be raptured do not have to die. There are some exceptions to a general rule. Lazarus died twice; why can't Moses? Heb. 9:27 says, "it is appointed unto men once to die." How do you apply that to Lazarus? The Lord intervened. If he intervened in Lazarus' case, can't he intervene in Moses' case?

It seems that Moses will be allowed to go into the promised land during the Tribulation. He will demonstrate that one can live after death. Elijah will demonstrate that one can be taken to Heaven without dying and still return to Earth.

After a certain beggar named Lazarus died, a certain rich man in torments said, "if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Lu. 16:30,31). That point is about to be proved during the Tribulation. If Moses rises from the dead and phrophesies for 1260 days, will they be persuaded?

To help us identify the two witnesses, Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." You remember how Jesus would not say that two of the apostles could sit on his right and on his left? That might be because those positions are already filled. They might be filled by Moses and Elijah.

The two olive trees refer us back to Zechariah 4:14. It says, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Who stood with Christ at the Transfiguration to show us? Moses and Elijah.

> if Elijah is on one side of the lampstand (representing the old
> covenant) then who is on the other side (representing the new
> covenant)?

Moses is the one associated with the old covenant. He is the one the ten commandments were given to at Sinai. The OT ends with the promise to "send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal. 4:5). The Day of the Lord is the Millennium.

> Moses, it doesn't fit since Moses also died.

Don't forget that John also died.

Her reply

Where does the Bible say that John died?

My reply

It doesn't, but I don't think he is still around.

Incoming Email

Dearest Marilyn, our most precious kin in CHRIST, we just wanted to wish you a most pleasant and wonderful Thankgsgiving day! We trust that you, Ed and your loved ones are well and that you experiencing the overflowing joy of our LORD moment by moment. We - at the moment - have some gorgeous 'winter wonder land' weather here in Northern Germany. Daily I check out the pros and cons through our brother in Manila. But for some reason I can no longer link into your site however. Have you changed your site or do you have an explanation? We continue to pray for you and Edīs heath. Please take care of yourself! We are very grateful that you are and for the many blessings you are through your ministry. May our FATHER-GOD continue to bless you richly and exceeding abundantly. You are such a joy!

Have a most wonderful Thanksgiving day and a sumptous turkey dinner!
With all HIS Agape

My reply

Thanks for your prayers. We don't feel top notch but are able to go walk about 1/4th of the mall every other day. We used to walk the whole thing about 5 days a week. Today, we go to a gathering of relatives for Thanksgiving. Afterward we go to see Ed's mother, the third time since his surgery. That should make her feel better about the whole thing. This is the first time she didn't think she could make it to the family gathering. It is farther away than usual, and she couldn't just go for an hour then go home.

Time to go. Happy Thanksgiving. Thanks for everything. Agape

Note: Ed's mother, Millie Sparkes, of Placentia, CA, was so sick at her stomach when we got there that we could visit very little. She ate no Thanksgiving dinner, just drank Ensure. Please pray for her health.

Incoming Email

Bridges for Peace FROM: Clarence H. Wagner, Jr., International Director - Jerusalem
DATE: November 27, 1998
SCRIPTURE: "Be glad, O people of Zion, rejoice in the Lord your God, for He has given you a teacher for righteousness. He sends you abundant showers, both autumn and spring rains, as before" (Joel 2:23).
Updated 12-2-98: Note: Those that produced the NIV quoted above understood the former and latter rains as coming in autumn and spring, two seasons that CAPS thinks did not exist at that time. He thinks the only seasons are winter and summer.

Incoming Email

Enjoyed reading your web page. I have read several books on end time events (The Beginning of the End - John Hagee, the Left Behind fiction series to name a few) but have not seen anything so precise and well researched as your work. The only question I have is this. Doesn't the Bible say we aren't suppose to attach dates or try to predict these events? Jesus said that only the Father in heaven knows the time of these events. Am I wrong? I am a fairly new Christian and have just begun my study of the Scriptures. I was amazed by the book "The Feasts of the Lord" which relates end time events to the 7 Jewish Feasts. Your writings reminded me of this corrilation and I was facinated because of the similarity. I truly believe in the certianty of all these events happening, I have just never seen dates attached to them before.

My reply

Mt. 24:36 says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." The word "knoweth" is present tense. At that time, no one knew. It does not say that no one will ever know. We were told to watch. If we watch, we can know.

Rev. 3:3 says, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What will we know if we do watch?

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-2-98