Pro and Con 223

Uploaded 12-2-98, PM

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FWD: http://www.mt.net/~watcher/nopretrb.html:
(Note: They think there will be one Rapture in the middle of the Tribulation.)
"TroubleWith Agee's2RaptureThry: Rapture on Pentecost ?
From Marilyn Agee's website:

PRE - TRIB AND PRE - WRATH Some Christians expect the Rapture before the Tribulation. Others expect it at the end of the Tribulation just before the Wrath of God is poured out. The reason, as I see it after over 36 years of intense Bible study, is because there actually will be two Raptures. The first one is the Rapture of the Church, the second of the Tribulation saints.
This theory posits two raptures, rather than examining the possibility that prophecy points to ONE RAPTURE in two phases -- the resurrection of the dead occurs first, then at some later time the remaining faithful are "changed" and meet those resurrected ALREADY IN THE AIR.

***From Marilyn: At the Rapture, Jesus comes "quickly" (Rev. 2:5). In Rev. 22:20, he signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." It doesn't sound like Jesus, Michael and the resurrected dead hang around in the air waiting during the first three and a half years of the Tribulation.

Agee's remarkable website examines Israel's feast day of Pentecost as a prophetic type to be fulfilled by the rapture. However, we at watcher believe Israel's Feast of Tabernacles is the obvious allusion to the rapture of the faithful, both dead and remaining.

The Feast of Tabernacles reminds the believer in Christ that his earthly physical body is only a temporary tabernacle.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle is taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. For indeed in this we groan, greatly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling place out of heaven. ( 2 Corinthians 5:1)...
***That would make Tabernacles fulfilled before the Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement. I can't see it, but that's ok. Each of us must be fully persuaded in our own mind. I also know someone who believes that Jesus was born on the Feast of Tabernacles because he tabernacled among us. John 1:14 says, "And the Word was made flesh, and DWELT among us." The word "dwelt" is skenoo, to tent, tabernacle. Of course, with that line of thinking, Rev. 7:15's "he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell (skenoo, tabernacle) among them" must also take place on Tabernacles. Also, Rev. 21:3, "Behold, the tabernacle (skene) of God is with men, and he will dwell (skenoo, tabernacle) with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" must take place on Tabernacles, nevermind that Christ returns on Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3).

WatcherNoPre-TribRapture

***They need to explain why Jesus promised to keep us "FROM (ek, out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). They also need to explain why Jesus told us to "pray always, that ye may be acounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36). In the Lord's prayer, Jesus said, "And lead us not into temptation (peirasmon, trial), but deliver (rhusai, rescue, draw to oneself) us from evil." I think this rescue is the Pre-Trib Rapture, when the Lord will draw us to himself.

Mistaken Notions: Tribulation & Rapture

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This passage tells us that tribulation martyrs will be among those "dead in Christ" resurrected at the rapture. It follows, then, that the rapture takes place some time AFTER the antichrist starts persecuting those who will not take his mark.

***The middle of the Tribulation is when the False Prophet rides forth on the pale horse at the breaking of the fourth seal. The martyrs are seen after Mid-Trib, when the fifth seal is broken. If a single Rapture happened Mid-Trib as watchers think, why would the martyrs be told, "that they should rest YET FOR A LITTLE SEASON" (Rev. 6:11)?

In order that they hang on to their "pre-trib" rapture hope, some Christian authors posit a second rapture during the tribulation which will account for those saints described in Revelation 20:4-6. A "pre-trib" rapture would have already removed the faithful prior to antichrist's persecution, so according to this theory these tribulation martyrs must be those newly converted, having missed the "pre-trib" rapture.

However, there can be no "pre-trib" rapture/resurrection and then a "second rapture/resurrection" at some point within the tribulation. We are clearly told that "THIS is the first resurrection", the resurrection which INCLUDES THOSE SAINTS MARTYRED DURING ANTICHRIST'S PERSECUTION. The rest of the dead do not live again until after the thousand years.

***They don't realize that there are ranks in the first resurrection. I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." The vanguard of Old Testament saints was taken to Heaven ahead of us on Christ's resurrection day. If there were no ranks in the first resurrection, wouldn't we be out of luck?

John's Revelation says nothing of three resurrections of the dead. There are merely the two: the first resurrection of the dead in Christ, including those martyred during the antichrist's persecution, as John saw, and the resurrection of the rest of the dead after Jesus Christ's Millennial reign. According to such noted authors as Marilyn Agee, there is a "pre trib rapture" removing Christians before the antichrist comes to power. This would necessitate three resurrections: the "pre-trib resurrection" which would take all Christians before the antichrist could persecute them, an "inter trib resurrection" to account for those martyrs seen by John, and then of course there is the final Great Throne Judgement resurrection after the Millennium Kingdom. Notice how thoroughly John has described two resurrections of the dead during the tribulation: one at a point after many have been martyred by antichrist, and one after the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. There is no mystery surrounding TWO resurrections of the dead...BUT WHERE IS THE THIRD? The answer can only be that Agee and her fellow pre-tribbers are incorrect ... there is only the resurrection of the dead DURING the tribulation which will include those martyred by the antichrist, and the Great Throne resurrection after the 1000 year Millennium Kingdom.

***Then why do we see a group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Heaven in Rev. 5:9? They are there before the Tribulation starts when the first seal is broken in Rev. 6:1 and before those "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" appear in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17. The first group appears in Heaven BEFORE the first seal is broken. The second group appears in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the seventh seal in Rev. 8:1.

...We can all agree that the word "rapture" and the word "apostasy" are quite different in meaning, and should not be used in place of one another. If the Bible says apostasy, it means apostasy.

apostasy : a total desertion of, or departure from, one's principles [Gk., der. apostasis defection, revolt] The American College Dictionary Random House
The Bible is precise, and does not use the word apostasy in II Thessalonians to refer to the simple "falling in and out" of faith of the common wishy-washy religious folk. The apostasy of the end times is on a grand scale....This falling away will be dramatic and final, not wishy-washy, and sudden, not a gradual growing cold in faith.

This sudden mass denial of the truth of Jesus Christ will PRECEDE the rapture, we are told. II Thessalonians provides more specific details of what comes BEFORE THE RAPTURE.

***In their ordinary dictionary, we can still see that "apostasia" basically means departure. It is like separating at the time of a divorce. In Strong's 646, "apostasia" is fem. of the same as 647 (apostasion), something separative and divorce, which is neut. of a (presumed) adj. from a der. of 868 (aphistemi), which means to remove, depart, withdraw self.

***He apostasia means "the departure" (i.e., the Rapture) and was so translated in early versions, including The Geneva Bible, Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. It is not just departure, but THE departure, a certain departure, the sudden catching away of the saints, when we shall be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:17).
II Thess 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the rapture)... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This passage tells us the "gathering together unto" Jesus, the rapture, will not occur until two other things come first. There will be the falling away-- the apostasy, the dramatic mass denial of the truth of the Word.

And most importantly, the rapture will not occur until THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED. The antichrist will come to power before the rapture....There can be no pre-tribulation rapture.

***Something important was left out above. Second Thess. 2:1,2 says, " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. THAT YE BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND,OR BE TROUBLED, NEITHER BY SPIRIT, NOR BY WORD, NOR BY LETTER AS FROM US, AS THAT THE DAY OF CHRIST IS AT HAND." This "day of Christ" should be "day of the Lord," as in all major MSS (Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Wordsworth). The millennial Day of the Lord "shall not come, except there come a falling away (departing, i.e., the Rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan" (II Thess. 2:3,9).

***Also, we are not told to wait for the coming of the man of sin. We are told to wait "for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 1:7). We are to watch, but it is not for the man of sin, but for the Lord from Heaven. II Thess 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed... ***The words "letteth" and "let" are Old English. Their meaning has changed. This passage means he who now hindereth will hinder. The NASB says, "he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one will be revealed" (II Thess. 2:7,8). The Holy Spirit is the restrainer. He is in the Church, the salt that inhibits the growth of leaven. When the Church is taken to Heaven, the restraining influence will be taken away. Evil is restrained now for our sakes.

...The Holy Spirit must not be what restrains antichrist, if indeed he is being restrained.

***II Thess. 2:6,7 in the Jerusalem Bible says, "And you know, too, what is still HOLDING HIM BACK FROM APPEARING before his appointed time. The mystery of wickedness is already at work, but let him who is RESTRAINING it once be REMOVED, and the wicked One will appear openly."

...There are angels associated with nations....Michael has authority over what goes on with respect to Israel, and the Bible tells us Michael is "he that lets". The angelic protector of Israel is "letting" the force of antichrist, which we are told is already at work on the earth.

***I wonder if they are actually prepared to say that Michael will "be REMOVED, and the wicked One will appear openly" (II Thess. 2:7; JB). The antichrist will set up his kingdom in Israel, and even defile the temple in Jerusalem....For this to occur the angelic authority over Israel must allow it ... Michael, "he that lets", must step aside and let it happen. Michael is the being God put in charge of "allowing and preventing", of "letting and restraining" things of a spiritual nature from occuring with respect to Israel. Michael, not the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ, is the "restrainer" and the "letter"....

***I think the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and we are talking about the Church and of "our gathering together unto him" (Christ) (II Thess. 2:1), not just Israel.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
Jesus Christ refers to this unprecedented "time of trouble" as the Great Tribulation, and He tells us it will occur after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet. This reference to Daniel confirms that the second half of the seven years will be the time of God's wrath, since we are told that at the midpoint of the seven years the abomination of desolation occurs. If we take the words of Jesus Christ at face value, the time referred to as the "Tribulation" doesn't even start until the midpoint of Daniel's 70th Week. A midpoint rapture, then, can be understand as being both pre-tribulation and pre-wrath, if we keep in mind that Christ Himself calls only the last three and one half years of Daniel's 70th Week "Great Tribulation"....

***The passage in Daniel says, "there shall be a time of trouble, SUCH AS NEVER WAS since there was a nation even to that same time." The Day of God's Wrath is the only day that is worse than any other since there was a nation. I think that is the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation. It is not a 3 1/2 year span. The last verse of Dan. 11 must be taken into consideration. It says of the False Prophet, "he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." Then chapter 12 continues, "AND at that time (the time when the False Prophet will be deposed from office, the Day of God's Wrath) shall Michael stand up."

The Rapture and the Falling Away are two separate things. We are not appointed to God's wrath, but notice that the wrath of God is not poured out onto the earth until Revelation 16....

***Rev. 6:17 says, "the great day of his wrath is come." That precedes Rev. 16. Rev. 15:1 says, "of the seven last plagues, "in them is FILLED UP the wrath of God." The vials are the final effects of what starts with the seven trumpets. For instance, Rev. 8:8 says that at the second trumpet, "the third part of the sea became blood." By the time of the second vial, "every living soul died in the sea" (Rev. 16:3).

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It would appear to me that in the midst of the 70th Week, the False Prophet succeeds the Roman Pontiff, making the Beast of the Earth the Antichrist, not the first Beast. Seeing as he comes up out of the earth, it is symbolic for Israel. In other words, a Jewish Pontiff. Have you ever heard of Jean-Marie Lustiger? He's the Archbishop of Paris, and next in line as Pope. He is Jewish, and an occultist.

Being that the Bride of Christ will most likely be taken away this Pentecost, I find it interesting that the Vatican has plans to take Jerusalem in 2000. Maybe this will lead to the covenant with many in 2001. John Paul II is too old and frail to last much longer, so maybe Lustiger will have him "incapacitated." Just a thought.

Also, since you, like myself, are both Pre-Trib & Pre-Wrath, do you hold the Restrainer in 2 Thess. to be Michael the Archangel?

Thank you for awakening me to the reality of Two Raptures. Before, I was simply Pre-Wrath. Now I am warned to have my oil with me at all times.

My reply

> in the midst of the 70th Week, the False Prophet succeeds the Roman Pontiff,
> making the Beast of the Earth the Antichrist, not the first Beast

I agree. The second beast is the one that is Satan possessed. He speaks "as a dragon" (Rev. 13:11).

> Have you ever heard of Jean-Marie Lustiger?

Yes. Someone mentioned him to me, but I don't know much about him.

> do you hold the Restrainer in 2 Thess. to be Michael the Archangel?

No. We are the salt of the Earth that restrains the growth of leaven. The real reason is because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He restrains the growth of evil for our sakes. When we are gone, the evil one will be allowed to surface.

Michael "when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 9). He does not sound like the restrainer there.

I appreciate your kind remarks.

Something just crossed my mind concerning the priesthood of the believer. All the Lord's priests were annointed with oil. We must have oil too. It all fits together.

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FWD: Re: Bible Prophecy Timing Based on Bible Chronology
Written to: Hedley Palmer
...Over the last 6 to 7 years I have been studying and writing on "Bible Prophecy Timing Based on Bible Chronology".

The best of all the books on Biblical Chronology that I have found is Bible Chronology by Ivan Panin entitled "Bible Chronology " (Bible Numerics, 7600 Jubilee Drive Niagra Falls, Ontario, Canada L2G 7J6, 1950) (First edition was printed in 1923 by the Armach Press, Toronto). This book gives an in-depth rationale for the chronology. Panin's total years from Adam to Christ was 3999 years (Page 134). He missed the one year that must be counted for Jehohez's 3 month reign. The need to use this year is shown as in an article that I suggest that you look at below.

I am wondering where you obtained your chronology. A few years ago I gave mine to Avi Ben Mordechai and he included it in his book 'Signs in the Heavens - A Jewish Messianic Perspective of the Last Days & Coming Millennium".

I suggest that you look at my articles looking at Bible chronology based dates and calendar using God's Word rather than the corresponding secular system. These articles are on the web at address:
http://www.beithallel.org/articles.htm

...In the article you will see how we can get away from using the non inspired secular calender for the dates of prophetically significant Biblical events. This in turns leads to not only the 6000 years from Adam to the beginning of the Millennium on Tishri 1 1999 but also the following:

Daniel's last week (Dan 9:27) also beginning on Tishri 1 1999. Bible Chronology, and Ezekiel 4 Jerusalem Sign to the House of Israel calculations using Biblical numbers of years enable correlation (at 1967 AD) of Bible events with our current calendar dates. For the time periods to be consistent, Daniel 9:25 "Messiah the Prince" is at Jesus Christ's Birth and His Birth was in 2 BC. Considering the prophetic meaning of the Lev. 23 Feasts of the LORD and the Lev. 25 years of Jubilee and the corresponding date (1424 BC) for the beginning of the 70 Jubilee cycles(of Daniel 9:24) the best Scriptural indication of the time of Lord's Second Coming to proclaim the Acceptable Year of the LORD is the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) 2006 AD.

I would be glad to discuss the reasons for the chronology and calendar in future E-mail or phone calls.

My reply

> The best of all the books on Biblical Chronology that I have found is
> Bible Chronology by Ivan Panin entitled "Bible Chronology "

Try Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology. I found it to be the best I could find.

Dr. Arnold D. Ehlert, head librarian of BIOLA's library when I began studying Bible chronology, wrote the "Syllabus of Bible Chronology" (1946, unpublished). He said, "Henry Fines Clinton (...1824) was perhaps the ablest, soundest and most complete and satisfactory of all our modern chronologers up to Anstey." Of Anstey, he said, "Martin Anstey ..., The Romance of Bible Chronology (1913), is considered the standard chronology of today by many." Dr. Ehlert also stated, "William Ethelbert Bullinger's Companion Bible (1910) is significant."

Concerning the time of Genesis, from the creation of Adam to the death of Joseph, Dr. Ehlert wrote, "The result arrived at is characterized by the accuracy and certainty of an exact science. It cannot be one year more. It cannot be one year less. This is so mathematically exact and so absolutely certain, that since Ussher proved that Terah was 130 when Abram was born, no chronologer, who accepts the text of the Old Testament, has ever made the period covered by the Book of Genesis from the Creation of Adam to the death of Joseph anything else but 2369 years. The only exception is R.G. Faussett, who supposes that Abraham left Haran, not as Scripture says, when his father Terah died, but after an interval of two years....Panin agrees with Anstey," said Ehlert, "on all dates up to birth of Moses. He dates the 430 years from Abraham's second covenant and gets 2457 AH instead of 2433 AH for birth of Moses."

Panin made a 24-year mistake right there.

I think Jesus was born in 5 BC, and the wise men brought him kingly and priestly gifts when he was about two years old, in BC 3. Herod had the male babies killed that were two and under. He probably died himself a bit after the eclipse of the Moon on Jan. 10, BC 1. I believe that BC 3 was 4000 years from the time Adam was cast out of the Garden, but Adam was in Eden 40 years before that time. It seems that man began to be tested as both mortal and knowing good and evil when Adam was cast out of the Garden.

> (1424 BC) for the beginning of the 70 Jubilee cycles(of Daniel 9:24)

I think Daniel 9 is talking about 70 weeks of years, not Jubilee cycles. I think they began to be counted in BC 454, the first year of Cyrus. The Lord "saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid" (Isa. 44:28).

Martin Anstey found an 82-year mistake in Ptolemy's Persian Empire period. He had 82 years too many (BC 536 [Ussher] - 82 = BC 454). The year BC 454 fits the Crucifixion perfectly (483 - 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD).

> the best Scriptural indication of the time of Lord's Second Coming to proclaim
> the Acceptable Year of the LORD is the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) 2006 AD.

I think the Scripture is clear that Christ will return on Nisan 1, the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year, Regnal because he is King of kings, Sacred because he is Lord of Lords.

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." The former rain starts Tishri 1, Jesus' birthday, and the latter rain starts Nisan 1. Joel 2:23 says, "he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." In Scripture, when a day number is not given, the first day of the month is meant, because the word for month is the word for new moon.

The day is set in Ezekiel 29:17: "in the first month, in the first day of the month." Then in verse 21, it says, "In that day (Nisan 1, Ezek. 45:18,21) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Logos, Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

There must be seven months between the catastrophe on the Feast of Trumpets to the return of Christ (Ezek. 39:12). This means that the Second Advent must be in a Jewish leap year. The Jewish 5768 (our 2007/2008) is a leap year. The year 5766 (our 2005/2006) is not a Jewish leap year.

One 40-year generation from the time Israel took Jerusalem in 1967 is not 2006 (1967 + 40 = 2007). Mt. 24:34 says, "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." All these things include the day the smoky atmosphere is rolled back, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Mt. 24:30). I believe that this sign takes place on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, the very first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007).

This is 14 years (7 good and 7 bad) from the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993 (1993 + 14 = 2007). Our year 1993 + 7 = 2000. The ratification of the Oslo Accords in Jerusalem three days later on the Jewish Tishri 1, 5753 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5760 (our Sept. 11, 1999). I think the Rapture should take place within these 7 good years. In Egypt, Joseph too up a fifth of the grain in the 7 good years. We are wheat, so it fits us well. Our time is getting short. I am hoping for next Pentecost.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-2-98