Pro and Con 226

Uploaded 12-6-98, PM

Incoming Email

you frequently indicate that you believe Rev 4:1 to be the time of the 1st rapture. May I ask why you believe this is the 1st rapture, and not just an invitation to John to observe what is to come?

My reply

"THE Revelation of Jesus Christ," when we will see him as he is, was written as if the Rapture was at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3 and 22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5).

The book is a dramatic production, a miracle play, to show us things to come. Jesus is the playwright and producer. The setting is just before the Rapture takes place. He cast both himself and John as actors. Jesus wrote the script. John is narrator. The supporting cast are the angels. In our days, when the Rapture is near, Jesus will "shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY come to pass" (1:1).

As the play begins in chapter one, John gives the salutation "to the seven churches which are in Asia (muddy, i.e., yet on Earth). He finishes with "Amen." Then Jesus speaks with authority. If we haven't quite got it yet, he will tell us plainly exactly who he is. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega (the first and last), the beginning (Lord of the Old Testament) and the ending (Lord of the New Testament), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), THE ALMIGHTY."

John again speaks, saying that he "was in the isle that is called Patmos (mortal)."

Suddenly, he said that he "was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day," and heard behind him "a great voice, as of a trumpet." In Rev. 4:1, he said, "the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither." This is the "FIRST voice," as of a trumpet. These two passages fit together.

As any modern movie producer will do, Jesus started out with a Preview of what was soon to come--the Rapture. In chapter one, it is the Preview. In 4:1, it is the real thing.

In chapter one, as soon as John is caught up to Heaven, he turns to see the one who spoke. Lo, and behold, it is Christ as he was never seen on Earth, although the Transfiguration was close. His Godhood shines through. "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters" (1:14,15).

Around him were all seven churches. Still in his hand were seven star performers who had just been snatched up. To show that resurrection is part of the Rapture, John "fell at his feet AS DEAD" (1:17). Reassuring him, Jesus laid his right hand on him and said, "Fear not; I am the first (YHVH, 'the king of Israel') and the last ('his redeemer' the YHVH of hosts, Isa. 44:6): I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" (1:17,18).

Since this information about things "which must shortly come to pass" (1:1) is written to the Church when the Rapture is "at hand," Jesus tells John to "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture), and the THINGS WHICH ARE (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter" (after the Rapture) (1:19).

In Rev. 2 and 3, Jesus gives a final message to each of seven church groups. In each, he is seen as he appeared in the Preview of the Rapture. To Ephesus, he is "he that holdeth the seven stars in his right, hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." To Smyrna, he is "the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive," etc.

In each message, Jesus reaches back in time, grabs a bit of their history so we also have a record of church history, and then stretches it up to the present time. To Ephesus, he said, "repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place" (2:5). That warning is right before the Rapture takes place. It is for today.

To Sardis, Jesus says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and HOLD FAST, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief (he comes as a thief at the Pre-Wrath Rapture), and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) (3:3).

To Philadelphia, Jesus says, "I have set before thee an open door" (3:8). The Rapture is now so near that the door is already open. This is the door of Rev. 4:1. Then, Jesus tells the church of Philadelphia (brotherly love), "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (waiting), I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial, the Tribulation), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (3:10,11).

After warning the lukewarm Laodiceans to repent and to be wearing white garments, the Rapture takes place. John acts it out.

Rev. 4:1 says, "AFTER this I looked, and, behold, a DOOR WAS OPENED IN HEAVEN: and the FIRST VOICE which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET TALKING with me; which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (after the Rapture). And immediately I was (became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne" (4:1,2).

In Heaven, John saw the elders, representatives of a group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (5:9). They are all the people that are part of the Pre-Trib Rapture, and they are in Heaven before the Tribulation begins in chapter 6.

Later, at the end of the shortened Tribulation, between the sixth and seventh seals, the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. We see "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations" in Heaven. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (7:14,15) before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth in Rev. 8. They finally repented and confessed their sins committed after accepting Christ, therefore bringing them under the blood of Christ too. They were warned to repent before the first Rapture, but they did not take heed. However, they paid attention afterward.

In this play, as things are acted out, it as if they are happening, but the whole story is told from the vantage point of the Rapture. Things either happen before the Rapture, at the time of the Rapture, or after the Rapture.

We must take warning and be certain we are ready. There is very little time left. It looks like we have a 12-month purification period, as Queen Esther had (Esther 2:12), to prove that we are wise virgins.

Incoming Email

www.gnosis.org/library/scroll.htm

My reply

Thanks. Here is an interesting excerpt I found when I visited that site.
Dead Sea Scrolls - The Coming of Melchizedek: http://www.gnosis.org/library/commelc.htm
11Q13, Col.2 (emphasis and comments in brackets mine)

(...) And concerning what Scripture says, "IN THIS YEAR OF JUBILEE YOU SHALL RETURN, EVERYONE F YOU, TO YOUR PROPERTY" (Lev. 25;13) And what is also written; "And this is the manner of the remission; every creditor shall remit the claim that is held against a neighbor, not exacting it of a neighbor who is a member of the community, because God`s remission has been proclaimed" (Deut.15;2) the interpretation is that IT APPLIES TO THE LAST DAYS and concerns the captives, just as Isaiah said: "To proclaim the Jubilee [KJV "liberty"] to the captives" (Isa. 61;1) (...) just as (...) and from the inheritance of Melchizedek, for (... Melchizedek) , who will return them to what is rightfully theirs. He will proclaim to them the Jubilee, thereby releasing them from the debt of all their sins. HE SHALL PROCLAIM THIS DECREE IN THE FIRST WEEK OF THE JUBILEE PERIOD THAT FOLLOWS NINE JUBILEE PERIODS. THEN THE "DAY OF ATONEMENT" SHALL FOLLOW AFTER THE TENTH JUBILEE PERIOD, when he shall atone for all the Sons of Light, and the people who are predestined to Melchizedek. (...) upon them (...) For THIS IS THE TIME DECREED FOR THE "YEAR OF MELCHIZEDEK`S FAVOUR", and by his might he will judge God`s holy ones and so establish a righteous kingdom,

***From Marilyn: A Jubilee cycle is 49 years. The 50th year is the Jubilee and the first year of the next cycle. "AFTER THE TENTH JUBILEE PERIOD" is after 490 years, the same figure as the 490 years of Dan. 9:24-27. The writer mentions "THE SIXTY-TWO WEEKS" of Dan. 9:26 below. Seven of these 490 years is still to run. I think the millennial Day of the Lord will start on Tishri 1, 5768, the Feast of Trumpets.

as it is written about him in the Songs of David ; "A godlike being has taken his place in the council of God; in the midst of divine beings he holds judgement" (ps. 82;1). Scripture also says about him ; "Over it take your seat in the highest heaven; A divine being will judge the peoples" (Ps. 7;7-8)

***I think the Judgment Seat of Christ will be on that first Feast of Trumpets of the Millennium, and it will take place in Heaven.

Concerning what scripture says ; " How long will you judge unjustly , and show partiality with the wicked? Selah" (Ps. 82;2) ,the interpretation applies to Belial and the spirits predestined  to him, because all of them have rebelled, turning from God`s precepts and so becoming utterly wicked. Therefore Melchizedek will thoroughly prosecute the vengenance required by God`s statutes. Also, he will deliver all the captives from the power of Belial, and from the  power of all the spirits destined to him. Allied with him will be all the "righteous divine beings"(Isa. 61;3). (The ...) is that whi(ch ...all) the divine beings.

The visitation is the Day of Salvation that He has decreed through Isaiah the prophet concerning all the captives, inasmuch as Scripture says, "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of the messenger who announces peace, who brings good news, who announces salvation, who says to Zion "Your divine being reigns"." (Isa. 52;7) This scriptures interpretation : "the mountains" are the prophets, they who were sent to proclaim God`s truth and to prophesy to all Israel. "The messengers" is the Anointed of the spirit, of whom Daniel spoke; "AFTER THE SIXTY-TWO WEEKS, AN ANOINTED SHALL BE CUT OFF" (Dan. 9;26) The "messenger who brings good news, who announces Salvation" is the one of whom it is written; "to proclaim the year of the LORD`s favour , the day of the vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn" (Isa. 61;2) This scripture`s interpretation: he is to instruct them about all the periods of history for eternity (... and in the statutes) of the truth. (...) (.... dominion) that passes from Belial and returns to the Sons of Light (....) (...) by the judgment of God, just as t is written concerning him; "who says to Zion "Your divine being reigns" (Isa. 52;7) "Zion" is the congregation of all the sons of righteousness, who uphold the covenant and turn from walking in the way of the people. "Your divine being"  is Melchizedek, who will deliver them from the power of Belial. Concerning what scripture says, "Then you shall have the trumpet sounded loud; in the seventh month . . . " (Lev. 25;9)

***I think the power of Satan is broken on that Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium on the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation. That is the day of the asteroid impacts. Then, on Earth, after Christ's return, at the full end of the seven years, at the Judgment of the Nations, dominion is taken from Satan and his angels.

Incoming Email

Your financial plight has weighed heavily on me since I read it.  We, too, have had reversals that were well beyond our control, leaving us with empty retirement funds...health issues, stresses beyond anything we ever expected...yet, I know HE IS FAITHFUL. I cling to His promise to continue to deliver us until the day of His arrival...claiming it for you and Ed, as well.

  While the Bible remains forever our only earthly visual anchor, the Lord has been faithful in giving personal assurances to me as well as my children of His soon Return.  May I briefly share some of them?

  Several years ago while driving home from an extremely stressful day at work, I felt the Lord impress upon me, "You will not die."  Repeatedly the thought came back over the years with force and clarity...I recently read of a number of other people who received exactly the same message from the Lord.

  Last week, as I went to bed particularly  burdened by the number of "impossible" circumstances in the lives of my family members, as well as my own life.  I had a vivid dream (one of two I count as "from the Lord" in my lifetime).  My son and I were watching the horizon from a window in our home...I saw smoke stacks billowing factory exhaust (where my beloved forest had been)...then I realized that one swirling mass was not from the smoke stack but was a tornado heading straight at us (in Oregon!)...I turned to my son and said,"What shall we do?"  I could see literally hundreds of people outside running for ditches for cover...as  my son stood frozen saying, "I don't know!"...I turned back to look at the funnel cloud...in its place was a huge, consuming, luminous body of light - like the sun but consuming 98% of the horizon and without glare.  The funnel cloud had evaporated into a vapor in its presence.  I knew immediately that the Son's appearance made all of the threatening circumstances disappear by the power of His presence.  I also had a tremendous peace that His appearing was imminent.

  My son and my daughter have each had vivid dreams of the Lord's return...my son's dream was a shattering earthquake in which all of the security of his life and even the earth itself was violently taken from him and yet he knew that the reality of the Lord and his faith in Him held him securely.  In the dream, before the issues of his circumstances could resolve...the Lord Himself returned for us.  In the past year, every form of my son's personal life has been turned upside down beyond his control...I am waiting for the Lord to return before any of the circumstances actually resolve...

  My daughter dreamed several years ago of the Lord's joyous and triumphant return as He rode dark clouds pealing with thunder and lightning across the sky towards her.  He was leaning over the edge of the clouds, laughing and reaching out with the joy of a longed for reunion of a tender lover...it was so very real to her that when she awoke she felt that she had been lifted from her body and was slowly returning to it as the image of the Lord above her faded.

  We are a very conservative family of believers who share a deep love of the Lord's return...surely, He is coming quickly!  We pray for His return with a longing known only to those of us who ache with His homesickness to be united with Him as His Bride!!

  I looked for the location of this verse...but couldn't find it for you tonight...it's from the "Message"..."Be strong.  Be brave.  I am coming quickly."  It encouraged my discouraged heart the other evening,as I hope it does yours...I continue to pray for you both often!! In His Abiding Love

My reply

I appreciate your sharing all this with me.

> "You will not die."

I know of another that was almost the same. This was a girl that studied the Bible with me at our house back in 1969/70. We have kept in touch periodically ever since. She was walking on the sidewalk in her front yard when she heard the words, "You will never die."

In spite of hard tests and living in days when evil is rampant, this is an exciting time in which to live. We are to be rewarded for withstanding all these things by being part of the Rapture. That is a wonderful thing the Lord has planned for us. It is certainly well named. All trials will pale into insignificance on that day. Rapture will take over. As when I had my babies, I figure you can take most anything if you know it won't last long, and we don't have long to wait almost any way you figure it.

I think the Oslo Accords being signed on Sept. 13, 1993 and ratified in Israel on Tishri 1 points to a definite end to the seven good and seven bad years on Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). That is 40 years from the Sign of the End of the Age when Israel grew leaves in the Six-Day War of 1967 and fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. The Rapture has to precede the seven bad years, so cannot be far off. We better be ready. In Rev. 11:1, the temple is there when the Tribulation begins, so when are they going to build it? It won't spring up overnight. I'd say that after we are gone makes sense because right now we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. That narrows down the time we have left quite a bit. Homesick too. Maranatha.

Incoming Email

Your so kind to answer my questions. You must really be a busy lady. I did not say Christ will appear at Pentecost but he will appear at Trumphets. Christ the beginning at Pentecost Christ the end at Trumphets. Its late need to get some sleep. Talk to you later. May the Lord bless you always.

My reply

Actually, I think that Christ WILL appear at Trumpets. I think it is the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30. Then men will say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:16,17).

I think this is Tishri 1, 5768, Coronation Day, also the day of the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ. The LORD said, "I will rain upon him (Gog), and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him (all nations, Isa. 34:2), an overflowing rain (shower, i.e., a tsunami), and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone (from the asteroid striking the Mediterranean Sea, Rev. 8:8). Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be KNOWN IN THE EYES OF MANY NATIONS, and they shall KNOW that I am the LORD" (Ezek. 38:22,23). Like doubting Thomas, those have to see him to believe. When Thomas saw Jesus, he said, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The LORD said, "I will bring the third part (of Israel) through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech. 13:8,9). This ties in with Isa. 66:8, where we see that the nation is born in a day, "for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire" (Isa. 66:15). This is not, however, the Second Coming. That comes seven Jewish months later (Ezek. 39:12,13) when he returns in glory.

This day is also the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Those that come out of great tribulation (Rev. 7:14) are caught up between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1). They are caught up before the fire falls at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5).

Incoming Email

"Insiide Track," Dec. 98, by Eric Hadik:
(excerpts) "January 1st is the first stage of conversion to the Euro. The results of this massive computer/banking conversion could provide a precursor to the granddaddy of all computer/banking conversion - the Millennium Bug....

March 31/April 1, 1999
"Fiscal year-end/beginning for Japan, New York state and several other states and countries. This is being hailed as the first real test of what type of glitches can arrive when year-end dating rolls to '00'"

Incoming Email

My name is ----- and I was just reading your page on the Rapture.

I was wondering how people can know when we will experience the second coming of Christ and the Rapture?  How do we know that the Bible means what we think it means?  I am a believer in God and Jesus, and I am just curious as to how we can know when this is going to take place.  I have always believed that we will never know about the Rapture or the second coming until it happens. Thanks

My reply

> I was wondering how people can know when we will experience the second
> coming of Christ and the Rapture?

I think Jesus will return at the Second Advent on Nisan 1, the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year, Regnal because he is KING OF KINGS, Sacred because he is LORD OF LORDS. He will officially take office at the same time all the other Israelite kings officially took office.

In De. 11:14, God promised, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain."

Hosea 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."

I think he came on Tishri 1 as the former rain and will return on Nisan 1 as the latter rain. Joel 2:23 says, "he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." In Scripture, if a day number is not given, it is understood to be the first day of the month for the word for month is the word for the new moon, which was the first day.

Look at Ezek. 29:17's "in the first month, in the first day of the month." That is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

As for the Rapture, read these two files:
http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/pentecostl998.html
http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/pentecost1999.html

> How do we know that the Bible means what we think it means?

When something comes true when you think it will, you figured it out right. I think I missed the Rapture by one year, but it looks like the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord and the Second Advent will come true when I figured. We should know soon. The Rapture is near.

> I have always believed that we will never know about the Rapture or
> the second coming until it happens.

So did I until 1968. The Six-Day War of 1967 fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. That changed everything. It was what we were to watch for. Israel is the fig tree. She grew four huge leaves at that time, Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. One generation from then is the end of the age.

Things happened to Israel for examples for us who live at the end of the age. There are to be seven good years and seven bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt. They seem to have started when the Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. Add the seven good years. You come to 2000. Then add the seven bad years. You come to Sept. 13, 2007. Forty years from 1967 is 2007. Things are adding up.

We are getting close to the Rapture. We are wheat. One fifth of the grain was taken up by Joseph in the seven good years. There isn't much time left us any way you figure it. I am hoping we will be caught up next Pentecost. It looks like the temple must be there by the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 11:1). They need some time to build it. Right now, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. As soon as we are gone, the physical temple will probably be raised up.

Incoming Email

I was so glad to hear so quickly from you. This certainly is far better than letters! I've been haveing so much fun. I agree pretty close to your analysis. But I think it will be more like Penecost 2001 which will bring it to exactly seven years till Christ rules. What about what Jesus said about he would cut it short for the elect sakes. Also The Jewish years start in spring spiritually and autumn legally. Could the counting rely on these figures instead of the actual dates such as the day Israel became a state, the end of the six day war etc... Don't we often see a overlap to eras times, etc... I am just throwing thoughts at you dear teacher. I feel things in my spirit and have been reading and studying for 30 years but not as in depth as you. But you are one of the few people I can talk to because of your knowledge and you being a woman. I hate it when I'm talked down too.Thankyou for your reply. God graciously shine upon you with a blessed Christmas and a healthy New Year!

My reply

I think there is a gap between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. The temple is there at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 11:1). Right now, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Probably after we are gone, the physical temple will be raised up. We are believer priests. Israel is now over 30 (since she took the temple area in 1967) and ready to take over the priesthood.

Also. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the Rapture is at hand. In Rev. 17:12, at the time of the Rapture, the ten kings "have received no kingdom as yet: but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

In Rev. 13, when the Tribulation begins and the beast appears, all ten are crowned.

> What about what Jesus said about he would cut it short for the elect sakes.

The Tribulation is to be cut to 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) or there would be no flesh saved (Mt. 24:22).

> Also The Jewish years start in spring spiritually and autumn legally. Could
> the counting rely on these figures instead of the actual dates such as the
> day Israel became a state, the end of the six day war etc.

Yes. I think that the 2300th day of the Tribulation is on Tishri 1 and that Christ will return on Nisan 1. See Pro and Con 226 for more on this. Happy holidays.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-6-98