Pro and Con 227

Uploaded 12-8-98, PM

Incoming Email

An old man in a dream said to me.... You have faith.... The Rapture is in June....

I thought the saints would have to go through the grate tribulation in order to be around to save souls but would be raptured before Armegeddon.

My reply

Dreams are interesting, but they may be true and they may not. The only rock-hard truth we have is the Bible. However, May or June is ok with me. So is December 13. I'm ready.

There will be believers on Earth during the Tribulation. Before the Tribulation, when the Bride of Christ is taken out of the Body of Christ (as Eve was taken out of Adam's body), I think there will be some evil servants who don't make it. The "righteous is taken away from the evil to come," (Isa. 57:1), but the unwise servant is left behind for a period of time.

Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This portion with the unbelievers is the shortened Tribulation, up to the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14) between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1).

Isa. 57:1 says, "THE righteous perisheth (abad, wander away), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that the RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME." The good and faithful servant, the wise virgin, the Philadelphian church of brotherly love, is taken away from the coming Tribulation. This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. We must strive to enter in at the strait gate, for broad is the way that leadeth to destruction.

I see two Raptures in Scripture, one Pre-Trib, the other Pre-Wrath. The group that is kept "from" the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10) is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." The Tribulation saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This is "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues."

It looks like those wearing white garments will be snatched up before the Tribulation, and those not wearing white garments at that time will be snatched up at the end of the shortened Tribulation. Rev. 7:14 shows us that they will get on the ball and wash their robes, i.e., confess the sins committed after they accepted Christ.

II Peter 1:9,10 says, "But he that lacketh these things (he gave a list of things we should do) is blind (like the Laodiceans), and CANNOT see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he WAS purged from his OLD (palai, former) sins (when he accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your calling and election sure."

Here is Peter's list to believers, "that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature." Add to your faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and "charity" (agape, God's love). Then Peter adds, "For so AN ENTRANCE shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." We must we wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit.

Armageddon is after Christ's return. It is a battle between Christ's forces and Satan's forces. I think we will be here for Armageddon. Aren't we part of the Lord's army? Zech. 14:5 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL the saints with thee." However, we will have been to Heaven and gotten our resurrection bodies. Those that go to Heaven before the Tribulation will visit their habitation (Job 5:24) for 7+ years. Those that are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture will visit their habitation for 7 months (Ezek. 39:12).

Psa. 149 5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory (in Heaven): let them sing aloud upon their beds (they get to rest). Let the high praises of God be in their mouth (they sing the new song), and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have ALL his saints. Praise ye the LORD."

R.B. Thieme says that each one of us will bump one demon. I have long wondered if the number of the saved among mankind will equal the 1/3rd of the angels that failed their test. Will we replace them in the government of God?

After Satan is chained, his angels put in prison, and the millennial government set up, we will go back to Heaven. It is our home. Some think we will be on Earth for a thousand years. I don't think so. We will be able to travel back and forth if our job demands that, but our home is in Heaven. The Lord's throne is in Heaven. Rev 22:3 says, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him."

John 14:1-3 says, "LET not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." If Christ is in Heaven, we may be there too. This leaves a little room for choice. Remember Abraham and other stalwarts.

Heb. 11:15,16 says, "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

While setting up the millennial government, Christ will sit on the throne of David, "judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness" (Isa. 15:5). Afterward, David will sit on his own throne again on Earth, and Christ will sit on his heavenly throne. Jer. 30:9 says, "they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up onto them." Eze. 37:25 says, "my servant David shall be their prince for ever." Eze. 34:24 says, "I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them."

In the millennial Day of the Lord, Christ returns on Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). There is a chance that we will return to Heaven on the following Kislev 24.

However, there is also a chance that Kislev 24 applies to the Pre-Trib Rapture. Consider it.

Haggai 2:15 says, "And now, I pray you, CONSIDER from this day and UPWARD, from BEFORE a stone was laid upon a stone in the temple of the LORD." Think about this. Right now, Israel has not yet laid stone upon a stone in the temple. It seems to be coming soon, but just not yet. However, they do have the corner stone ready.

Haggai 2:18,19 says, "CONSIDER NOW from this day and UPWARD (maal, upward, above, on high), from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, CONSIDER IT. Is the seed (Christ, 2 Tim. 3:8) yet in the barn (Mt. 13:30, "my barn," i.e., Heaven)? yea, as yet the vine (Christ, Jn. 15:1), and the fig tree (Israel, i.e., Old Testament saints?), and the pomegranate (Church saints? Song 4:3,13), and the olive tree (Tribulation saints? Psa. 128:3), hath not brought forth (NASA, lifted up, ascended): FROM THIS DAY WILL I BLESS YOU."

Many prophecies have a double application. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. BE READY, just in case. Kislev 24 is next Sunday, Dec. 13, 1998, my 70th birthday, a great day for me if the Rapture would take place then. We could then celebrate Hanukkah (Kislev 25) with Christ in Heaven with really joyful hearts. This is the festival of lights, the joyous Feast of the Dedication that commemorates the restoration of the temple.

The twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem are the "twelve apostles" (Rev. 21:14). We are "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (Eph. 2:20-22).

We will know soon if the Rapture will take place on Kislev 24. It is worth considering.

Incoming Email

Thanks for your response. I could not disgree more with your belief that there are two raptures. . Christ says in Rev. I will keep you from the hour of temptation. In John 6 Jesus says three times I will raise him up at the last day. In Rev. Christ does not say I will keep some at one time and another group at another time. And in John three times Jesus says he will lift up the redeemd the last day which leaves no room for any other day but the one and only last day. Of course the last day does not mean the last day of time at the end of the world but the last as last in a succession of days,the 1335 day. If Christ meant the last day to be the last day in time it would carry the church through the great tribulation and it would then suffer the wrath of God and Christ`s promise of keeping thee from the hour would be nullified. Have you ever heard of the prophetic author Norman Harrison. He wrote the book The End Re-Thinking the Revelation. He wrote it back in 1948 and inspired me to study prophecy and especially to study the feasts of the Lord. It is out of print but maybe could be located at a Christian library

May the Lord bless you always.

My reply

> Christ says in Rev. I will keep you from the hour of temptation.

I understand that this shows that we do not have to go through the Tribulation. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture. It takes place in Rev. 4:1. But, what does Rev. 3:11 mean? It says, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." How can we lose this crown?

> In John 6 Jesus says three times I will raise him up at the last day.

If there is a "last day," then it follows that there is a first day. John 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up AGAIN at the last day." Why does he say "raise it up AGAIN"? If a man is raised up once, it would be unnecessary to raise him up "AGAIN."

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16,17). Since no number is given, this is the FIRST TRUMP.

We "shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP" (I Cor. 15:52,53). So there are TWO TRUMPS, just as there were two silver assembly trumpets in Nu. 10:2-4. "And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL (as in I Cor. 15:51) the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the princes (elders, as in Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The elders represent the whole group that is found in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They are in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6, and are made unto God "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10).

However, there is another group found in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. They are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev. 7:9). "These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple." They are there before the wrath of God is poured out in Rev. 8. This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. No crowns are mentioned. Why? Also, none of these are said to be kings.

> In Rev. Christ does not say I will keep some at one time and another group
> at another time.

Then why does he show us two groups in Heaven at two different times, in Rev. 5:9 and 7:14?

There are two days of the Son of man. Jesus said, "ye shall desire (hope) to see ONE of the days (plural) of the Son of man, and ye shall NOT SEE IT" (Lu. 17:22). One of the days of the Son of man is as the days of Noah (Lu. 17:26). No fire falls that day. The other day of the Son of man is as "the days of Lot" (Lu. 17:28). "But that same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Lu. 17:29,30). This revealing is the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30. It is just before the Wrath of God is poured out. Then "shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Tribulation saints, caught up at the last trump) to the uttermost part of heaven (those caught up at the first trump, before the Tribulation)" (Mk. 13:27).

The ones that shall "NOT SEE IT" the first time are caught up at the last day, because of all those given him by his Father, Jesus will lose nothing.

In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul said he was running a race to win an incorruptibl crown. Yet, he said, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to other, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." Please tell me how Paul could be a castaway if he gave in to his body. This is called the body of sin.

Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the evil one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Why? The unbelievers will go through the Tribulation. This evil servant will too. That is why he weeps and gnashes his teeth. He missed what he could have had. Jesus warned the churches to repent, but did he listen? No. That is why the group in Rev. 7:14 that come out of great tribulation have had to wash their robes in the blood of Christ. They had unconfessed sin in their life and missed the first Rapture.

There are ranks in the first resurrection. I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tamati, rank)."

> There is one God one savior one babtism one mediator between God and man. There
> is one and only one appearing of Christ for the holy redeemed body of Christ

Eph. 4:4,5 says, "There is one body (the Body of Christ), and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope (the "blessed hope") of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." I Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Where does it say that "There is one and only one appearing of Christ for the holy redeemed body of Christ"?

I can't remember reading the book by Norman Harrison, but I read a stack about 18" high every week for seven years from BIOLA's Seminary Collection. I may have read it and just can't recall it.

Incoming Email

I just found this on the Net and so I'm sending it a long so that you my read it. Hope you like it. http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/Chevleh.html

My reply

There was little to agree with. He (Joseph Good) thinks Egypt is Europe, the land of Babylon is the US, the armies of Babylon are the kings of the east, Assyria is Russia, the Dead Sea is to become the Lake of Fire, with fire burning on top of the water. He also thinks that Sodom and Gomorrah burned because oil was set ablaze by the desert sun.

I think Egypt is Egypt, etc. Scripture interprets itself. Not once is Egypt said to be Europe. I wonder how just a fire punched the bedrock down 2,615 feet below sea level in the Dead Sea and split the Earth from Turkey to Lake Nyassa in Africa. That catastrophe formed the Great Rift Valley.

While wading through, I did get a new idea. He said that the Ark prevailed over the sea. That triggered my mind to make a different association than I had made before.

The sea represents nations in Revelation 17:15. The first Rapture is as the days of Noah. We will float above the nations, i.e., the final united world government. We are taken up to Heaven before the Tribulation and are brought back down at the Second Advent. In the seventh month, the Ark rested upon Mt. Ararat (lit., holy ground, i.e., Heaven). Then in the "second month," Noah was told, "Go forth of the ark" (Gen. 8:16). There are seven months from the seventh month to the following second month.

That ties in with Ezek. 39:12,13, where there are seven months from the catastrophe to the return of Christ. These seven months between Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1 demonstrate that Christ returns, and we with him, in a Jewish leap year, and 5768 (our 2007/2008) is a leap year. There are seven months between its first day (Tishri 1) and the first day of the Regnal Year (Nisan 1), when Christ returns (Ezek. 29:17,21). These seven months drop the Second Advent into its proper slot on the Calendar.

The Tribulation is about seven years. Seven years from this year, 5759, is 5766, which is not a leap year. Neither is 5765. The year 5767 is not a leap year either. The next possible time that Christ could return to Earth seems to be 5768. The Six-Day War took place in 5728 (our 1967). Add the 40-years for one generation, and you also arrive at 5768 (our 2007/2008).

From Tishri 1, when the Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel in 1993, to Tishri 1 in 5768 gives us the seven good years and the seven bad years. From Sept. 13, 1993, when they were signed in the US, to Sept. 13, 2007 (Tishri 1, 5768) is fourteen years. Neat. We are the wheat, the grain taken up in the seven good years. We don't have long to wait. Noah had a seven-day notice. The WYE River Memorandum was signed in the US on Oct. 23, 1998, just seven months before the Biblical Pentecost on May 23, 1999. Get ready, stay ready and earn as many rewards as you can in the time remaining. Time is short.

Incoming Email

Below I have put in brackets a portion of a response from another web page where the author responds to my question about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. His name is Ed Chumney and this is his reply to my question:

{"One thing is for sure, it was not Friday. Some believe crucified on Wednesday at 3PM. Some believe it was Thursday at 3PM. In the several places where it talks about the resurrection being the 1st day of the week, the word "day" is italicized in the King James Bible meaning that it does not appear in the text. The word translated as first can be translated as "the beginning". The word translated as "week" is translated as sabbath in virtually every other occurrance in the NT. So, therefore, by looking more closely at the Greek, the text of the resurrection could be translated as "at the beginning of the sabbath".}

To me this means Jesus was resurrected at the beginning of the Feast of First Fruits which is always celebrated as the first Sunday after Passover. He could not have been resurrected as the 18th day was coming to an end as you suggest. If I follow your scenario the sequence would be that Jesus was crucified around 3:00 p.m. on Thursday and put in the grave just as the sun was setting on Thursday or (the beginning of Friday) So the days would be from the beginning of Friday until sunset (one day), the beginning of Saturday until sunset (second day), the beginning of Sunday until sunset (day three). Three days and three nights or three times 12 = 36 plus another three times 12 = 36 or a total of 72 hours. Jesus would have been raised just before Monday began.

Monday would not be the "dawn of the sabbath" or the beginning of the Feast of First Friuts. Unless one thinks that Monday is the first day or the week...but even then we have to allow for the interpretation of "as it began to dawn toward the "sabbath" or Feast of First Fruits.

In Jewish circles the day of Preparation is the 14th not the 13th. The lamb had to be kept until the evening or mid day of the 14th and then slaughtered at 3:00 p.m. and roasted as the sun goes down. This was a shadow of things to come...as Jesus would be sacrficed in midday on the 14th and swallowed up in the grave at sunset. Ask a Jewish person which day is the day of preparation and you will find out as I did...it is the 14th.

Matthew 27: 57 - 62 tells us that Joseph of Arimathea asked for the body when it was evening or the beginning of the 15th. Jesus was already dead two days according to your calculations if He was crucified on the at the end of the 13th. In verse 62 it says "Next day, that is, after the day of preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered before Pilate and said....," This next day would be the 15th of Nisan. When I looked up the text of Matthew 28:1 in the Greek Lexicon, it read "Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre." I guess God wanted us to be clear that there was a beginning and an end to this week. The beginning is the day the lamb is selected on the 10th and the end is the Feast of First Fruits.

I have debated this issue with you long enough to know we both have our opinions....I just need to know how Jesus could have risen just before the beginning of Monday or Sunday at sunset and still fulfill the scriptures of being presented as the First Fruit of the resurrected on Sunday. There is still room for disagreement here.

By the way, have you researched the huge rock that is one of Saturn's many satelites? I saw it on a web page from the Discovery Chanel or NASA. I think it looks just like an asteroid...the type of rock Jesus would throw at the earth? in faith

My reply

> Some believe it was Thursday at 3PM.

I think the Crucifixion was Thursday at 9:00 AM and his death was around 3:00 PM.

> To me this means Jesus was resurrected at the beginning of the Feast of
> First Fruits which is always celebrated as the first Sunday after Passover.

I agree.

> In Jewish circles the day of Preparation is the 14th not the 13th.

That is true, but the Bible says that the Passover is the 14th (Lev. 23:5). Thus, the proper day of Preparation is the 13th.

> "Next day, that is, after the day of preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees
> gathered before Pilate and said....," This next day would be the 15th of Nisan.

If the day of Preparation is Nisan 13, the next day would be Nisan 14, the Biblical Passover.

> Matthew 28:1 in the Greek Lexicon, it read "Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn
> of the sabbath, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre."

This makes sense to me. "Now after the sabbath (Saturday), toward the dawn of the sabbath (toward dawn on Sunday, the Feast of Firstfruits)."

> The beginning is the day the lamb is selected on the 10th and the end is
> the Feast of First Fruits.

This makes sense to me also. The Lamb of God was selected on Monday, Nisan 10, was crucified on Thursday, Nisan 13, and was resurrected on Sunday, Nisan 16, the Feast of Firstfruits, in 30 AD.

Any of Saturn's satellites big enough to have been discovered are probably too large to strike Earth without breaking it up, but I do think an asteroid, probably a binary (see Rev. 8:8,10), will impact Earth. It's origination is probably from the planet Rahab, that split apart and formed our Asteroid Belt. It was probably shot out into a cometary orbit by the impact explosion that destroyed Rahab. It is probably now an NEA, near Earth asteroid. It could cross our orbit about twice a year, giving it a good shot at hitting us.

Incoming Email

...You must sure spenda lot of time in front of your computer answering all thr mail throughout US.

God will have two nations to harvest at end of age. The holy heavenly nation the church and the earthly nation Israel. God will employ the trumphet to harvest both nations. I would say the two trumphets of Num. 10 are symbolic of this. In my book which I will be mailing at the end of the week I`ll have a section on this. Of course the harvest of heavenly nation is first and then later the earthly nation. You mention two groups in Rev. that are pictured. When the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth then the saints will be in heaven. The children of Israel will be in a safe haven away from the wrath of the son of perdition. Then there will be those that will not take the mark of the beast and will be beheaded. Would not these be the ones that have gone through great tribulation?...May the Lord bless you always.

My reply

Yes. I do spend a lot of time answering email from all around the world. I hardly watch TV unless ice skating is on.

> God will have two nations to harvest at end of age. The holy heavenly
> nation the church and the earthly nation Israel.

I think the Bride of Christ will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Then the remainder of the Body of Christ will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The latter will take place at about the same time that all Israel will be born again in a day. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place as the age ends. Israel is born again right afterward as the millennial Day of the Lord begins.

> Of course the harvest of heavenly nation is first and then later the earthly
> nation. You mention two groups in Rev. that are pictured. When the wrath of God
> is poured out upon the earth then the saints will be in heaven.

I agree.

> The children of Israel will be in a safe haven away from the wrath of
> the son of perdition.

The ones in Jerusalem who know their Bible flee in the middle of the Tribulation, probably to Petra, their safe haven. But there are others in Israel, even in Jerusalem. If there were not, there would be no one for the army under Gog to attack. Zech. 12:3 says, "in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth (the united nations) be gathered together against it."

> Then there will be those that will not take the mark of the beast and will be
> beheaded. Would not these be the ones that have gone through great tribulation?

Yes, some in the first half of the Tribulation, others in the last half....

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-8-98