Pro and Con 230

Uploaded 12-16-98, AM

Incoming Email

To: 5 Doves, Cc to: mjagee@kiwi.net
Dear Mr. Tng, You said in your post on Satan's power that it is wrong and dangerous to make yourself equal to God. Yet the Scrip[tures are clear: each believer that has become "born of the Spirit" IS equal to God, and to deny this truth is itself blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and therefore the "unforgiveable sin". Consider the following Scriptures:

1. Zechariah 12:8 and 10: 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that shall be as David; and the house of David SHALL BE AS GOD, as the angel of the Lord before them. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son...

Please note that God says the house of David SHALL BE AS GOD and defines the house of David as all those that have had the Spirit of grace ( Holy Spirit) poured out upon them. In verse 8 "that day" is the day of salvation, when we become born again, and have the Holy Spirit poured out on us. Pentecost is the best picture of "that day". In verse 8 we are "feeble", or without spiritual strength, when unsaved. We become as David, the mighty King and type of Christ, on "that day" when we receive strength in the Spirit of Christ.

2. Paul says each believer has "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). How can we have the mind of God and NOT be equal to GOD?

3. The word Christian means "little Christ". Christ claimed to be EQUAL TO GOD and was accused of blasphemy by the Pharisees in John 10:33. Christ had a flesh body and the Spirit of God. Each believer has a flesh body and the Spirit of God. Thus each believer is equal to Christ, who claimed to be equal to God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

4. Consider also the full import of the following verses:

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as we are ONE. 23 I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST LIVETH IN ME...

Galatians 3:28 ... for YE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

2 Peter 1:4...that by these you might be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE

How can we be "partakers of the divine nature" and not be "divine" ourselves? Not in the flesh, which is dead, but in the Spirit, which is the spirit of God?

Well, there are so many more I don't have time to list them. This is the great message of the Scripture, that each believer has been made equal to God, yet you call it dangerous and blasphemy, just as the Pharisees did. The whole organized church would agree with you as well. I hope you will post this message on your page but I know you will not. But you need to hear the truth anyway.
Regards, Dave C.

My reply

From Marilyn:
Dave, I sincerely want to help you, not tear you down. You are seeking, and that is what is important. You asked for my help in your other email. Since I think it would be easier for you to climb up on that step after you understand this point, I am reversing the order that I received your emails. Please know that what I say is given in God's agape love. It is not meant to antagonize, but to make you stop and think.

> each believer has been made equal to God

It is far different for Jesus to say that he is equal to God than for you to say that you are equal to God. He is, and you are not. He is the Creator. You can't create one thing from nothing. If you are equal to God, why don't you stop starvation in this world? Surely, that would be a small task for you. Jesus fed 5000 from one boy's lunch. Can you do that? Can you walk on water? Why not? because you are not equal to God. That is easy to determine in your own life. Are you able to control everything in your life? Can you zap the food on the table each night? Can you give a man born blind sight?

YHVH (Yahweh) is the self-existent One who reveals Himself to mankind through His Son. "GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (lit., in) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:1-3).

Just because you have been baptized with the Holy Spirit does not mean that you have ALL the powers of the Holy Spirit. Every "one of us is given grace according to the MEASURE of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7).

By contrast, Jesus has all the powers of God. God "created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 2:9). "For in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9); "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist...For it pleased the Father that in him should ALL FULLNESS DWELL" (Col. 1:17,19). Paul's message to "them at Laodicea" is that they would have "the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE."

1 Cor 2:7,8 says, "But we speak the Wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden Wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the LORD OF GLORY." Christ is the Lord of glory. John 3:13 says, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

> Zechariah 12:8 ...the house of David SHALL BE AS GOD, as the angel of the Lord before them.

The house of David (i.e., Jesus Christ, descended from David) "SHALL BE AS GOD, as the angel of the Lord. Christ is God and he appeared in Old Testament days as "the angel of the Lord."

> In verse 8 "that day" is the day of salvation, when we
> become born again, and have the Holy Spirit poured out on us.

Lots of times in the Old Testament, "that day" refers to the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Joel 2:1,2 says of that day, "BLOW ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm...let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness...a great people and a strong (the united nations' army under Gog; Ezek. 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it."

Zech. 12:8 is talking about that same day, not the day of salvation. In "that day" when there is a "siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in THAT DAY will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for ALL people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though ALL the people of the earth be gathered together against it" (Zech. 12:2,3). Verse 3 says "that day," so does verse 4, 6 and then 8. It is the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium.

> Paul says each believer has "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16). How
> can we have the mind of God and NOT be equal to GOD?

Because we are given the Spirit of Christ by measure. Every "one of us is given grace according to the MEASURE of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7).

> Christ had a flesh body and the Spirit of God. Each believer has a flesh body and the
> Spirit of God. Thus each believer is equal to Christ, who claimed to be equal to God.

Christ, "in him dwelleth ALL the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9). We are given the Spirit of Christ/God by "the MEASURE of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7).

> How can we be "partakers of the divine nature" and not be "divine" ourselves?

Because we only have a "MEASURE of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7).

Incoming Email

From Dave:
Dear Marilyn, Thank you for your reply to my question in which I asked how we can reconcile God's claim to Moses that "Thou canst not see my face, for there shall no man see me and live" in Exodus 33:20, and Jacob's claim in Genesis 32:30 "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved".

Marilyn, I'm afraid your explanation creates more questions than it answers for me. Let me just list the concerns I have and perhaps you can explain to me how to alleviate them.

1. You say it was not God the Father that Jacob wrestled with but the Son of God, and you cite Genesis 33:24, that Jacob wrestled with "a man", and this has to be the Son of God, not the Father. Yet in Genesis 32:28 Jacob is told "... for as a prince hast thou power with God (Elohim) and with men, and hast prevailed". Jacob is clearly told that he has prevailed over GOD (Elohim), the same Elohim that created heaven and earth in Genesis Chapter 1. How can this not be the Father? How can this not be the same "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" as Christ himself calls the Father?

2. If Jacob indeed wrestled with the Son, why does he call him God (Elohim) and not the Son of God? Why would God allow such a confusing and mistaken statement to be made by Jacob if God is "not the author of confusion"? If God allows this mistake by Jacob, what other places in the Scripture need to be "corrected" as well? Jesus said the Word is "truth", but here the Word is a mistake. Where else in the Old Testament, when it says "Elohim", should we see the Son and not the Father, or the Father and not the Son? Do you understand my confusion?

3. Why is there no indication in Exodus that Moses is dealing with the Son of God, and not the Father? And why would he suddenly be dealing with the Father in Exodus 33, and not the Son? It makes no sense to me.

4. Moses said in Exodus 14:14 "... for they have heard that thou, Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art SEEN FACE TO FACE, ..." How could God be seen face to face and the Israelites live? Are you saying that this too refers to the Son of God and NOT the Father?

5. In Exodus 24:9-10 it says 9. Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel: 10 And they SAW the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Please note the Word says they SAW God, yet they lived. Surely this is a picture of the Father and not the Son in these verses? Likewise, there are many other claims in the Old Testament to having seen God, yet they all lived. Ezekial and Isaiah come to mind, as does Job.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye SEETH THEE.

Surely Job was not dealing with the Son? And how can you reconcile Job's claim to have seen the Lord with John's statement in John 1:18 that "no man hath seen God at any time"?

6. Finally, your explanation implies there is a difference in seeing God the Father, and God the Son. That one cannot see the Father and live, but can see the Son and live. Yet Jesus rebuked his apostle Philip for just such thinking in John 14.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how saith thou then shew us the Father?

Jesus says if you have seen him, you have seen the Father, yet John in Chapter 1 said "no man hath seen God at any time". How can this possibly be reconciled? And how can you reconcile this with your understanding?

Marilyn, I'm afraid your answer has left me more confused and doubtful than ever concerning the Scriptures. Please help me.
Sincerely, Dave.

My reply

> Please help me.

I will do my best. Pray and ask the Lord to open the eyes of your understanding.

> Jacob is clearly told that he has prevailed over GOD (Elohim), the same
> Elohim that created heaven and earth in Genesis Chapter 1. How can this
> not be the Father?

It was not just the Father because Christ created Heaven and Earth. John 1:3 says, "ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

You have to understand that Elohim is plural. It is the Godhead, which includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)."

You also have to understand that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not separate. They are all one united YHVH. Mt. 28:29 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Jesus said, "I and my Father are one....the Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:30,38). Rom. 8:9 shows that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are the same thing. it says, "ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his." The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. They are the same thing.

> If Jacob indeed wrestled with the Son, why does he call him God (Elohim)
> and not the Son of God?

The Son is not mentioned as the son much in the Old Testament, even though it was all about him. Prov. 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into Heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name (YHVH), and what is HIS SON'S NAME (YHVH of hosts, Yahwehshua, Yahshua, Y'shua, Iesous, Jesus), if thou canst tell.?

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God (Elohim). YHVH can be transliterated as Yahweh or Jehovah, according to which system of transliteration is used.

Isa. 12:2 says, "Behold, God (Elohim) is my salvation (i.e., YHVH shua; shua means salvation or Saviour); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he ALSO is BECOME MY SALVATION (i.e., YHVH shua, Y'shua, Jesus)."

Isa. 48:16,17 shows us the Elohim. It says, "Come ye near unto me (the Son), hear ye this; I (the Son) have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD (the Father), and his Spirit (the Holy Spirit), hath sent me (the Son). Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy Redeemer (YHVH shua, Y'shua, i.e., the preincarnate Christ), the Holy One of Israel: I (the Son) am the LORD (YHVH) thy God (Elohim) which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!" The Son is the one that mainly deals with mankind.

> If Jacob indeed wrestled with the Son, why does he call him God (Elohim)
> and not the Son of God? Why would God allow such a confusing and mistaken
> statement to be made by Jacob if God is "not the author of confusion"? If God
> allows this mistake by Jacob, what other places in the Scripture need to be
> "corrected" as well? Jesus said the Word is "truth", but here the Word is a
> mistake. Where else in the Old Testament, when it says "Elohim", should we see
> the Son and not the Father, or the Father and not the Son? Do you understand
> my confusion?

Yes, I understand. Jacob called the Son Elohim because he is Elohim. There is no mistake. God is not confused. We are the ones who have finite minds that have trouble understanding the infinite Godhead. Nothing needs to be corrected in the original editions of Scripture. God said what me meant to say. The Word is "truth." It is our understanding that is faulty. When you see Elohim, it may mean the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. They are all one in the Godhead. God is spirit (John 4:24). The spirit of God is in the Father. The spirit of God is in the Son. The spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ. You can't completely split them up for they are all one united YHVH.

I heard on TV that a priest said that the Godhead was like a shamrock. It has three lobes, but it is one leaf. I told the kids in my Good News Club that we are not so terribly different. Ed is a father, a son and a husband. Yet, he is one person. Christ is the Father, the Son and the Bridegroom.

Isa. 9:6,7 says, "For unto us a child is BORN (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is GIVEN (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (Elohim), THE EVERLASTING FATHER, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end...The zeal of the LORD (YHVH) of hosts (Y'shua) will perform this."

The Son is the one that mainly deals with mankind, and has from the first. He is the one that walked in the Garden of Eden and talked to Adam. He gave the commandments to Moses, visited Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, etc. He is the "angel of the Lord." He was the preincarnate Christ in the Old Testament and the incarnate Christ in the New Testament. He is the first AND the last.

> Why is there no indication in Exodus that Moses is dealing with the Son of
> God, and not the Father? And why would he suddenly be dealing with the Father
> in Exodus 33, and not the Son? It makes no sense to me.

You have to put all of Scripture to bear upon one part of it for full understanding. God made things hard enough to understand that Satan would not be able to figure it all out. Only those with the indwelling Holy Spirit even have a chance to unravel it at all. The unbeliever is not to understand. Dan. 12:10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

Isa. 28:9 explains, "Whom shall he teach knowledge" and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept...line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little...that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

> Moses said in Exodus 14:14 "... for they have heard that thou, Lord art
> among this people, that thou Lord art SEEN FACE TO FACE, ..." How could God be
> seen face to face and the Israelites live? Are you saying that this too refers
> to the Son of God

Yes.

> In Exodus 24:9-10 it says, 9. Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu,
> and seventy elders of Israel: 10 And they SAW the God of Israel: and there
> was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
> were the body of heaven (heavenly body) in his clearness.
>
> Please note the Word says they SAW God, yet they lived. Surely this is a
> picture of the Father and not the Son in these verses? Likewise, there are
> many other claims in the Old Testament to having seen God, yet they all lived.
> Ezekial and Isaiah come to mind, as does Job.

I think they are all the Son. The sapphire stone even indicates to us which planet is the heavenly body where Christ's throne is located, but that is a whole different subject.

> Surely Job was not dealing with the Son? And how can you reconcile Job's
> claim to have seen the Lord with John's statement in John 1:18 that "no man
> hath seen God at any time"?

No man hath seen the Father. Man has seen the Son. He has shown us what the Father is like.

> Finally, your explanation implies there is a difference in seeing God the
> Father, and God the Son. That one cannot see the Father and live, but can see
> the Son and live. Yet Jesus rebuked his apostle Philip for just such thinking
> in John 14.8 Philip saith unto him, Lord shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
> 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou
> not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how
> saith thou then shew us the Father?
>
> Jesus says if you have seen him, you have seen the Father, yet John in
> Chapter 1 said "no man hath seen God at any time". How can this possibly be
> reconciled?

When Christ was speaking to Philip, he spoke the truth. He that has seen Christ has seen the Father as much as the Father can be seen. He was in Christ, who is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). Christ made the invisible God visible to mankind. He showed us the attributes of God, things like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, perfect righteousness, love, fairness and justice, etc.

When we get to Heaven, we will still see God in the face of Jesus Christ. Rev. 22:3-5 says, "the throne (one throne) of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his (one person's) servants shall serve him (one person): And they shall see his face (one face); and his name (one name) shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there."

Incoming Email

From Dave C.:
Every time a true believer "rightly divides the Word of Truth", that is "divides" the "letter" from the "Spirit" in the Word ( 2 Corinthians 3:6 ), then he is doing the same miracles as Christ did, only "greater". Christ's miracles were only "shadows" or types of the true miracle of salvation. They were temporal and visible works that were "figures" of the true spiritual and eternal work of salvation God does.

When the believer rightly divides the Word, he is "raising the dead" like Christ, because the Word is a dead Word when we see only the letter in it. That is why Paul said the "letter kills", and called the "letter" a "ministration of death". It is the Spirit of the Word, the Risen Word, that "gives life".

Christ's miracles were natural and therefore temporal. The believer miracles are spiritual, and therefore eternal, and thus "GREATER". Christ claimed his followers would do "GREATER" miracles than he did, and this is how we do them. Each time we rightly divide the Word, we are giving sight to the blind man, cleansing the leaper, and raising the dead.

You ask me why don't I feed the world if I am equal to God. Feeding the world does not bring eternal life. Feeding them the Word of Truth does, and that is infinitely greater than feeding them physically. If I were able to perform visible, temporal miracles like Christ did, it would imply the law was still in effect for me and that there is no salvation. Jesus could do only visible, temporal miracles until he removed the law at the Cross ( Hebrews 10:9-10). Then he could do the real miracle of salvation, after his resurrection and return to Heaven. Witness Pentecost.

Thanks for your time. I hope you print this on your page.
Dave.

My reply

> Every time a true believer "rightly divides the Word of Truth", that is
> "divides" the "letter" from the "Spirit" in the Word ( 2 Corinthians 3:6 ),
> then he is doing the same miracles as Christ did, only "greater".

I don't think so. If you spiritualize Scripture, you can make it mean anything you want to in your own head. You, in effect, do away with what God is trying to tell you. You make his words of none effect. If we are to fully understand, we must let God say what he means and know that he means what he says. We shouldn't try to make it say something it doesn't really say.

I don't think you understand II Cor. 3:6-9. It is contrasting the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, the Dispensation of the Law and the DISPENSATION OF GRACE. (I didn't mean to capitalize that. It just happened.)

Let me quote the literal Concordant Version and see if it comes a bit clearer for you. The emphasis and comments in brackets are mine.

II Cor. 3:6-9: "Who also makes us competent dispensers of a NEW COVENANT, not of the letter [as the ten commandments chiseled in stone], but of the spirit [as the indwelling Holy Spirit], for the letter [ten commandments] is killing, yet the spirit [Holy Spirit] is vivifying. (Now if the DISPENSATION OF DEATH, by letters chiseled in stone, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look intently into the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face, which was being nullified, how shall not rather THE DISPENSATION OF THE SPIRIT be in glory? For if in the DISPENSATION OF CONDEMNATION is glory, much rather THE DISPENSATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS is exceeding in glory."

> Each time we rightly divide the Word, we are giving sight to the blind man,
> cleansing the leaper, and raising the dead.

No, we are not. If we think that, we are deluding ourselves.

> Jesus could do only visible,
> temporal miracles until he removed the law at the Cross ( Hebrews 10:9-10).

We can't limit what Jesus could do. He is the creator himself, the Almighty. While here, he was still "upholding ALL THINGS by the word of his power" (Heb. 1:3).

I'll print it, but the teachings you are swallowing are twisted. You would do better to lay them aside and read the Bible as if you had never seen it before. If it says something, believe it. Don't try to spiritualize it and make it mean something else. God is able to say what he means.

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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-16-98