Pro and Con 231
Uploaded 12-16-98, PM
Incoming Email I am not trying to argue with you but the scripture is very clear that Moses died and was burried. Now the only incoruptable flesh that died in the bible was Jesus's body. Moses's body died and was buried.
Duet 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
No I am not saying that your body has to decay to the point of dust before you could get your resurrection body. If a christian happens do die before the rapture he must wait until the rapture for his body to be resurrected imortal. Does not matter how decayed the body is God knows were each atom is. God stated that because He made Adam from dust that when a persons dies thier body must return to dust.
If Moses is the exception to the rule then God is a liar. Elijah and Enoc are the only two people recorded in the bible that have not tasted phsyical death. Concerning those that Jesus brought back to life that's just what He did. They were not resurrected to live forever. Thier time to die and then the judgment was not yet to be.
My reply I know Moses was buried, but it just doesn't tell us how long he was in the grave. It takes awhile for a body to turn to dust. I just don't know if it did or it didn't.
In Luke 16:18-31, the rich man asked that one from the dead be sent to his brethren to see if they would believe and not come to the place of torment. Abraham said to him, "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
It looks like the Lord will send Moses to prove that sending one back from the dead will not persuade those like his brethren. the Lord leaves no stone unturned to prove his judgment just. He is perfect justice.
Colossians means punishment, correction. In Col. 4:10, we find a parenthetic statement: "(touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)." Moses is the one of whom they received the commandments.
As Paul starts signing off, this parenthetic phrase is just thrown in there where it will be skipped over easily until Moses really comes. Then it will stand out. People will probably say something like, "Oh yeah, why didn't I see that?"
In verse 16, Paul said, "cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans." That also gives us a clue. The lukewarm Laodiceans will be here during Moses' ministry during the first half of the Tribulation. Will they listen? Yes. They will wash their robes in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14). Will the 144,000 Jews listen? Yes. They will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture with the Laodiceans.
Will the reprobate listen? No. Even after the vials are poured out, "the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils...Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries (pharmakeion, drugs), nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts" (Rev. 9:20.21).
Incoming Email FYI, questions we all need to consider. Dave.
Subject: Torah observance
From: Dave C.; To: Jim Bramlett; CC: Marilyn
Dear Jim, If "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" as you quote, and if we are no longer under the schoolmaster, which is the law, why then does the Church insist we are under the law?
If Paul says we are "no longer under law, but under grace" why am I told I must keep the law? Why are the Ten Commandments still in effect for my flesh ? Were they not part of the law?
If the Sabbath was a "shadow of things to come" as Paul claims in Colossians 16-17, and if "Christ being come an high priest of good things to come" ( Hebrews 9:11), why do we continue to keep the shadow? Does not keeping a temporal 24 hour Sabbath DENY the coming of Christ? Did he not FULFILL all the shadows of the law?
Why does the Church continue to insist I am a sinner if the law has been "taken away" (Hebrews 10:9-10) by Christ at the Cross? If God defines sin as the "transgression of the law" ( 1 John 3:4), and we are no longer under the law, how can we sin? What is wrong with believing John when he says "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" ( 1 John 3:9 )?
If God Himself insists in Hebrews 10:2 that worshippers that have been purged of sin "should have no more conscience of sins", why am I branded a "antinomian" and "grace heretic" for obeying that command?
Did Christ "take away" the law at the Cross as Hebrews 10:9-10 insists? Did he take it away "in part", or partially, or "perfectly"?
Finally, if the "law is spiritual" as Paul says in Romans 6:14, how can I keep it in the flesh? How can I break it in the flesh?
If Christ died to "take away" the law, why is the Church dying to put me back under it? Any light you can shed on these questions would be appreciated.
Regards, Dave C.
My reply From Marilyn:
> If "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" as you quote, and if
> we are no longer under the schoolmaster, which is the law, why then does the
> Church insist we are under the law?
We are not under the law as concerning salvation. We should still not sin or we will end up in Heaven with no rewards. Those will be saved so as by fire.
> If Paul says we are "no longer under law, but under grace" why am I told I must keep the law?
> Why are the Ten Commandments still in effect for my flesh? Were they not part of the law?
The commandments were to show mankind what sin is. If you commit murder, you have sinned. If you even covet something your neighbor has, you have sinned, and you deserve to die for that sin. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Now, you need a Saviour. Christ came to rescue you from that sentence of death.
When you ask him to be your Saviour, he baptizes you with his Holy Spirit and wipes all your "OLD" (II Pet. 1:9) sins off the books. Christ is a propitiation "for the remission of sins that are PAST" (Rom. 3:25). He kindles your spirit to life. A believer is body, soul and spirit. An unbeliever is body and soul. You are as a pure virgin and have a fresh start.
Your new spiritual man is sinless, but lo and behold, you still have your soul that can sin. Woops! Before you know it, you have committed sin. You know it is sin because the commandments showed you what sin is. Now you are out of fellowship with our holy God. There is a sin barrier between the two of you.
Now what are you going to do? Stay out of fellowship because your spirit can't sin? King David tried that a whole year. He was miserable and said that it was as if God's hand was pressing down on him. Do you know what he did? He confessed that what he did was sin and got back in fellowship with our holy God. He got that sin barrier out of his life and earned the right to sit on his throne again during the Millennium.
> Does not keeping a temporal 24 hour Sabbath DENY the coming of Christ? Did
> he not FULFILL all the shadows of the law?
Christ fulfilled all the law, because he did not sin. The Saturday Sabbath was a sign between God and the Jews forever (Ezek. 20:12). It has nothing to do with denying or not denying the coming of Christ. We are not bound to worship on the Sabbath. We can worship on any day of the week we choose. See Col. 2:16. The feasts, new moon and sabbath days were set up as clues to when certain future events would take place. You probably know about the feasts. You may not know that Christ will return on the new moon of Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,20; Hos. 6:3). The Sabbath represents the seventh millennium, the Day of the Lord, a time of rest.
> Why does the Church continue to insist I am a sinner if the law has been
> "taken away" (Hebrews 10:9-10) by Christ at the Cross?
Law has been taken away as a method of salvation. It condemned men. Not one single person was ever good enough to be saved by the law. God always counted their faith for righteousness. They were actually saved by grace as we are.
> If God defines sin as the "transgression of the law" ( 1 John 3:4), and
> we are no longer under the law, how can we sin?
You can still sin when you do something wrong. You don't think that God calls a wrong a right do you? When someone does something bad to you, you don't call that a right do you?
> What is wrong with believing John when he says "Whosoever
> is born of God doth not commit sin" ( 1 John 3:9 )?
Believers are spirit, soul and body. The spirit of man cannot sin. His body can and does sin. If he has no sin in his life, he is a spiritual Christian. If he has sin in his life, he is a carnal Christian who is out of fellowship with our holy God.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8).
> If God Himself insists in Hebrews 10:2 that worshippers that have been
> purged of sin "should have no more conscience of sins", why am I branded a
> "antinomian" and "grace heretic" for obeying that command?
Webster's defines antinomian thus: one who holds that under the gospel dispensation the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation. Does that fit you or not?
Rom. 6:14-16 says, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness." Rom. 6:11,12 says, "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let no sin therefore reign in your MORTAL BODY."
> Did Christ "take away" the law at the Cross as Hebrews 10:9-10 insists?
> Did he take it away "in part", or partially, or "perfectly"?
He totally took it away AS AN ISSUE IN SALVATION.
> Finally, if the "law is spiritual" as Paul says in Romans 6:14, how can I > keep it in the flesh? How can I break it in the flesh?
I think you mean Rom. 7:14. Don't stop with that verse. Read the rest of the chapter. It is all about the strife of the two natures. We are to "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4). "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Rom. 8:14).
Eph. 4:30; 5:1-8 says, "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you...be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you....walk in love...all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them...walk as children of light."
> If Christ died to "take away" the law, why is the Church dying to put me > back under it?
You have to rightly divide the word of truth. The law is taken away AS AN ISSUE IN SALVATION. Now, it is "What think ye of Christ" (Mt. 23:42)? This doesn't mean that after accepting Christ and having your "old" sins removed from the books you can sin all you please. Paul went through that in his letter with the Romans and said, "God forbid." You should want to stay in fellowship with the Lord and thereby earn rewards in Heaven lest all your works burn up like hay and stubble at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Incoming Email FWD: FYI, Hebrews 9:15 makes it clear that no one under the NEW TESTAMENT can sin, because there would be no sacrifice for those sins since it claims Christ redeemd only sins committed under the OLD TESTAMENT, or law. And the believer is not under the law, but under grace. Dave.
To Jim Bramlett:
...consider this from Hebrews 9:14-15
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, which through the Eternal Spirit, offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from DEAD WORKS (keeping the law) to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the NEW TESTAMENT, that by the means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that WERE UNDER THE FIRST TESTAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Jim, please note God says Christ redeemed ONLY the sins committed under the FIRST TESTAMENT, or law. Now, Israel was under the law, therefore Christ redeemed all their sins. It also means that the believer who is under the NEW TESTAMENT cannot commit sin, because Christ only redeemed sins commited under the FIRST TESTAMENT. If the believer could still sin under the NEW TESTAMENT, there would be no sacrifice for his sins. Thus, since Christ "took away" the law at the Cross, there can be no sin committed since then. Romans 4:15 says "... for where no law is, there is no transgression."
I know you don't agree with this analysis, but there it is in black and white. If I am wrong, please give me a better explanation of Hebrews 9:15 above.
Regards, Dave C.
My reply From Marilyn:
> please note God says Christ redeemed ONLY the sins committed under the FIRST TESTAMENT, or
> law. Now, Israel was under the law, therefore Christ redeemed all their sins. It also means
> that the believer who is under the NEW TESTAMENT cannot commit sin, because Christ only
> redeemed sins commited under the FIRST TESTAMENT. If the believer could still sin under
> the NEW TESTAMENT, there would be no sacrifice for his sins. Thus, since Christ "took away"
> the law at the Cross, there can be no sin committed since then. Romans 4:15 says "... for
> where no law is, there is no transgression."
> I know you don't agree with this analysis, but there it is in black and white. If I am
> wrong, please give me a better explanation of Hebrews 9:15 above.
Regards, Dave C.
Dave, If what you are saying was true, that Christ only redeemed sins committed under the Old Testament, you would be dead in your sins. All alive today would be out of luck totally. We would have no Saviour at all. Every one of us had sinned before we accepted Christ, and every one of us has sinned after we accepted Christ. All of this took place in New Testament days.
What is true is that when you accept Christ, he wipes away YOUR past sins. Second Peter 1:9 says, "he that lacketh these things is blind (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven) and hath forgotten that he was purged from HIS OLD SINS." He thinks he has it made and he hasn't. He had better read I John 1:5-10. Verse 7 says, "IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin." You see that "IF"? and that "ALL"?
To bring the sins committed after accepting Christ under the blood of Christ, you must use I John 1:9 and confess your sins to God. When you do that, he is faithful and just to cleanse you of "ALL unrighteousness." I John 1:9,10 says, "IF" again. This is conditional on our doing something. Maybe we will and maybe we won't, but "IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, AND to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. IF we say that we have NOT sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
This is what the Tribulation saints have to learn the hard way. They got left behind the first time. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." When the first Rapture took place, they were wearing "the garment spotted by the flesh" of Jude 23. We are not sin free for very long until we are out of this body. That is why it is called the body of sin.
Hebrews 9:14-15 says, "How much more shall the blood of Christ, which through the Eternal Spirit, offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he ("the living God," Christ) is the mediator of the new testament (i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ's LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT), that by the means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament (i.e., the Lord's former LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT), they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
Have you made out a WILL to carry out your wishes after you are dead? Have you ever changed your Will? You could make out different Wills at different times, but only the one carrying the latest date would go into effect at your death.
The Lord made out his Last Will and Testament, and he changed his Will before he died. Therefore the amended Last Will and Testament is the one that went into effect at the Crucifixion ("without shedding of blood is no remission" Heb. 9:22). By means of his Will that became effective at his death, the New Covenant was put into effect. It applies to all men of all time. Those of Old Testament days were saved by believing that the Messiah would come. Those of New Testament days are saved by believing that the Messiah came.
In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul shows how we have to keep under our body that can sin. It says, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize (i.e., the first Rapture)? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly: so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture).
Incoming Email David A. Day wrote: Re: Please post - in the name of Jesus
I ask you post this on your Pro & Con asap, In the Name of Jesus!
Dear fellow laborers in Christ,
I, as well as over 233,139 (as of 12-15-98) others have benefited from the diligence of this precious teacher of the Word, Marilyn Agee.
It is insufficient to just thank her and wish her "God Bless" when there is a need and it more than likely is possible out of our own abundance to help!
I remind all, that if we know of a need and do not help, it is the same as sin!. . I say rise up and bless our teacher - financially - PERIOD and AMEN! Now!! We all know her address!.
Ga 6:6 Let him (read us) that is taught in the word communicate (share) unto him/her that teacheth in ALL (yes, even financially) good things. Parenthesis mine!
Do it now - do NOT wait for others to do what we know to do is right. I specifically have requested Marilyn to post this - in His Name, because, of herself, I know she would not. I will assume the responsibility for this post.
David A. Day
I had to comment on those last two posts. It sounds like they are coming
from the same person.
Conerning us being 'equal' to God, I would just like to point out one
very obvious thing that should give that person cause to think. We know that
the Bible is the Inspired Word of God and that the Apostles, especially after
Pentecost, were filled with the same Spirit that wrote the Scriptures, and the
same Spirit that was One with the Father and the Son.
So, if we look at Revelation 22:8-9, we will see the Greatest of the
Apostles 'bowing down' to perhaps the Greastest Angel, and the Angel
immediately rebukes this man of God and says, "See that you do it not, for I
am your FELLOWSERVANT..."
If we are indeed 'equal' to the GodHead (what a ludicrous statement) than
we should be able to go around worshipping each other. This is obviously not
the case and to even consider it...
As far as the House of David being like God, this is like Moses who was
'god' to Pharoah. Like Moses before them, the House of David is the Phyical
Manifestation of the Theocratic Kingdom on this earth. David and Moses were
God's Annointed, His chosen vessels to Establish His reign on this earth (not
FellowServant and Vessel are terms of submission and inferiority, not
And as far as seeing God face to face, this is also explained in Hebrews,
where God the Son 'Emptyed' Himself of all His Glory, so that He could be born
of the Virgin and appear unto man, to show them the Love of the Father. Our
Lord Yeshua did not come down here in all His Glory the first time, like He
will the next time. The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was indeed the
preincarnate Son of God, but even then He had to 'veil' His Glory, because if
He didn't it would have burned the Israelites up, and He would not have been
able to establish the Theocracy.
I can see that Satan has been busy sowing the tares...
Keep looking up MJ, our Redemption is nearer now, than when we first
Your brother in our Lord Yeshua ha Messiah
Thanks bunches for your input. You said it so well. Agape
While in Israel, I was blessed to meet a couple who are close friends with Ron Wyatt and who were also on our tour. I found out a few days into the trip that Ron was actually on the same plane as Mom and I. What a thrill! I've read everything on his site and I must admit I wondered if it were too good to be true. Anyway, nosy rose that I am, I asked if we could have dinner with them and get caught up. Anyway, this gentleman had been hired by a publisher to check Ron out and see if he was legit. The man is well connected in publishing and major Christian circles. He had no prior knowledge of Ron. Short story is that Ron is what he seems to be. He operates on a shoestring (not unlike someone else I've become familiar with!) budget using his own income to finance his passion for archaeology. He usually stays at the "Y" in Jerusalem as he was on this trip. I almost got to meet him but our friends were unable to reach him thru the "Y". Anyway, on the last day of the tour we visited Bethesda and then walked the path right in front of the Eastern Gate--Whew, Girl! I just kept thinking as I looked across at the Mount of Olives, "I'm really here! Only 10 feet away from THE EASTERN GATE!" We went on to the Garden Tomb and saw the hill called Golgotha (the skull) and it really does look like a skull. We had a communion service with Perry Stone and Joe VanKoevering. Afterward, my tour friend whispered to me and Mom to come with him down a separate path in the garden. He pointed out that we were standing a few feet from Jeremiah's Grotto! I realized that this is where Ron wrote about finding the Ark of the Covenant and the blood on the mercy seat. Now, I am not generally an emotional person, but at that moment many things came flying through my mind. The trip was very hard and demanding. Israel is mostly mountains and rock and everywhere you go you must climb rocky paths or many stairs. Mom and I had been struggling to keep up. I admit I was a little disappointed not to be on Perry's bus because we missed a good bit of his teaching (which I will get on the tour tapes). The food in any foreign country is not what you're used to. We were running from 5:30 am to 10:00 pm everyday and just forget about 7 hrs of jet lag...we were both exhausted and overwhelmed. I was a little down in the back of my heart because I didn't "feel God" there like everyone says will happen---BUT THEN it was all clear to me that I had not missed God. Several times I almost cancelled the trip because Mom and I are not in good health as I have told you before. Each time I tried to mail the cancel letter, I would drive up to the mail box and then I just could not do it. If I had a nickel for each time I placed the journey in God's hands AGAIN, the trip would have been free! :) It struck me then, I had not even dared hope to confirm, much less see any of Ron's work. It's kind of obscure and few people are aware of it. But God knew my heart better than I did. I didn't get to see the mercy seat where my Lord's blood was applied but I "saw through a glass darkly" enough to know it was real. He had placed us on the right bus with the right people at the right time. The other big thrill was going in the western wall tunnels at night and getting to see the herodian stones. There is one that is over 500 tons with a huge crack down the middle. Perry thinks it probably happened during the earthquake at the crucifixion. Love & Prayers to you and Ed....
How interesting. Thanks for sharing the highlights of your trip with us. Another person, a man who went on two trips with Ron Wyatt, says that Ron is not a liar and backs him up on his finds. Agape.
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