Pro and Con 235
Uploaded 12-22-98, AM
Incoming Email Thanks for your reply! You say don't spiritualize the Scripture, but you do it all the time. Specifically you have spiritualized the Song of Solomon in many ways, have you not?
If I do not spiritualize, how can I understand that believers will do GREATER miracles than Christ himself? ( I capitalized "greater" myself ). How can I understand Mark 16: 15-18? I don't know any believer that does all five signs, do you?
How can I obey the command to "compare spiritual things with spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 2:13?
If I am not to spiritualize, why did Jesus say "the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are life" in John 6:63? Just what are the words that he speaks unto us? Just the words in red? Or the whole Scripture?
Why did Paul say "to be carnally minded is death, but to be SPIRITUALLY minded is life and peace" in Romans 8:6? What does it mean to have the "mind of Christ" if not to look at Scripture spiritually rather than carnally?
How can I obey Jesus' command to see how the Scriptures "testify" of him unless I seek him in every type and figure? Is he not the "all in all", in every "shadow" in Scripture? One cannot have a shadow without light, you know, and Christ is the "light of the world" is he not?
God is eternal Spirit. Why do you fault me for seeking the eternal Spirit that is in the Word? God commands me to seek that which is invisible and eternal, and NOT the visible and temporal. Marilyn, have you not read 2 Corinthians 4:18? Why would you have me to seek the visible and temporal things of the Word that "kill" me, rather than the Spirit that "gives life"? Do you desire me to find Christ in the Word or not?
My reply > you have spiritualized the Song of Solomon
There is a great difference between looking for types and what is called spiritualizing Scripture. Song of Solomon 2:10-14 seems to be a type of the Rapture when the greater Son of David comes for his Bride. It says, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away." I let it say exactly what the words say. I don't allow my imagination to run away with me and make it say anything I please.
Do you remember how Jesus explained the Old Testament types to the two man on the road to Emmaus? Lu. 24:27 says, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
There are definite types to look for. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happen unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come." Job 11:6 says, the secrets of wisdom, that they are double (duplicates) to that which is."
> If I do not spiritualize, how can I understand that believers will do GREATER > miracles than Christ himself?
You can't make up what it means in your own head. You can't assume something that isn't there. Look up the Greek word for "greater" in John 14:12: "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and GREATER works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father" (i.e., because his time was limited to 3 1/2 years).
The word translated "greater" is "meizon," LARGER, an irreg. compar. of "megas," BIG. Christ's ministry lasted 3 1/2 years, and he taught in Israel. Believers were to take his message to the world and teach for about 1977 years. During all this time, more people would be reached. The ministry would be greater in size. It would take on MEGA proportions.
You have to remember that "The servant is not greater than his lord" (John 13:16). We cannot do greater miracles than Christ himself. He is the Creator. We have the Spirit of Christ by measure. He has all the powers of the Godhead bodily.
> I don't know any believer that does all five signs, do you?
No, and Paul may only have had a run in with a poisonous snake one time. He did not even intend to do it that one time. It just happened, and the Lord protected him. It does not give us license to go out and handle poisonous snakes all the time.
> How can I obey the command to "compare spiritual things with spiritual"
> in 1 Corinthians 2:13?
Paul was contrasting things, the spirit of the world with the spirit which is of God, the words that man's wisdom teaches with the things which the Holy Spirit teaches, soulish things of the natural man with spiritual things of the saved. I Cor. 2:12-14 says, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." We can only fully understand Scripture in our spirit.
The unsaved cannot understand spiritual things because their dormant human spirit has not been kindled to life. Their understanding is limited to soulish things. The spiritual man, whose human spirit has been kindled to life, has the potential to understand all things. Paul was not speaking of soulish things that man's wisdom teacheth. He was speaking of things that could only be fully understood by the spirit, spiritual things taught to our spirit by the Holy Spirit. The revealed things are spiritually DISCERNED, understood by our spiritual man.
Paul said that "your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (I Cor. 2:5).
> If I am not to spiritualize, why did Jesus say "the WORDS that I speak
> unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are life" in John 6:63? Just what are the
> words that he speaks unto us? Just the words in red? Or the whole Scripture?
All Scripture is God breathed. To understand John 6:63, go back and pick up on what Jesus had been teaching. In verse 48, he said, "I am that bread of life." In verse 55, he said, "my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." In verse 57, he said, "he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." In verse 58, he said, "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." This has to be spiritually understood. It makes no sense to the soulish man. "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it" (v. 60). Can you understand what he was teaching? Then you are understanding spiritual things.
Then Jesus said, "It is the spirit that quickeneth." The Holy Spirit quickeneth our dormant human spirit to life. Believers are body, soul and spirit. Continuing, he added, "the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." What he had told them was given by the Spirit of God. If they could accept them, they could be saved. Verse 54 says, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life."
But, because he was speaking of things that had to be understood spiritually, and they did not understand because they were not believers, "many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him" (verse 66).
> Why did Paul say "to be carnally minded is death, but to be SPIRITUALLY
> minded is life and peace" in Romans 8:6?
Verse 10 says, "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
A believer is body, soul and spirit. The dormant human spirit, once kindled to life by the Spirit of God, does not sin. The soul still sins. We can walk according to the soul (flesh), or we can walk according to the spirit. An unbeliever is just body and soul, animal life. He lives according to the flesh.
You can see the division between the Holy Spirit and the spirit of man in verse 16. It says, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with OUR SPIRIT, that we are the children of God."
> What does it mean to have the "mind
> of Christ" if not to look at Scripture spiritually rather than carnally?
If we have the Spirit of Christ in us, we can understand spiritual things. It doesn't mean that we can twist the words of God and make them mean something else than what they are meant to mean. God is capable of saying what he means. It is up to us to figure out what he means with the help of his Holy Spirit.
> How can I obey Jesus' command to see how the Scriptures "testify" of him
> unless I seek him in every type and figure?
By all means, do deek him in every type and figure. You will find some types that speak of him and some that do not. Just be alert to recogize those that do speak of him and also those that do not. Let the scriptures say what they say. Don't try to twist anything to fit what you would like it to say.
> Christ is the "light of the world" is he not?
You bet he is.
> Marilyn, have you not read 2
> Corinthians 4:18? Why would you have me to seek the visible and temporal
> things of the Word that "kill" me, rather than the Spirit that "gives life"?
> Do you desire me to find Christ in the Word or not?
I sincerely wish you to find Christ in the Word. He is there. You just seem to be making things say what you want them to say instead of being willing to take things as you find them.
In II Cor. 4, Paul is contrasting several things, truth and untruth, blindness and enlightenment, suffering and triumph, etc. In verses 8 and 9, he says, "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed." Then in verses 17 and 18, he says, "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
The word "proskairos," temporal, means the ephemeral and evanescent, temporary, things that only endure for a time. Those things are contrasted with the eternal things that abide. Sometimes, when all goes well, we tend to look at ordinary things and forget to think of eternal things. Then, when something comes along to bump us a bit, we long for the Lord more than we long for things on this Earth, for HEAVEN INSTEAD OF EARTH, FOR ETERNITY INSTEAD OF TIME, FOR THOSE THINGS THAT CANNOT BE DESTROYED INSTEAD OF THOSE THAT WILL PASS AWAY. We have our eyes on what is important even though it can't be seen. (I didn't mean to capitalize that; it just came out that way.)
It is 1:31 AM. I had better wrap it up for tonight. May the Lord open the eyes of your understanding. In His love
Incoming Email Re: P&C 233
what happens to those believers who've died in that same situation [sin]? Will they have to wait too [Rapture II]?
Your reply: "They might have to wait until the "last day." I can't be sure, but since the Lord is fair, it seems logical."
1 Thessalonians 4: 16 answers the question CLEARLY. "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It doesn't say "some of" or "part of". It says "the dead". To me, "the" means "all".
It's good too see Ed is progressing along. Agape
My reply Thanks. Verse 14 sounds like you are right. It says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." It doesn't divide believers into two groups, carnal and spiritual. The only criterion given is to "believe that Jesus died and rose again." However, the living are divided between Philadelphians and Laodiceans. I should not have assumed that the dead are too. Everything will be evened out at the Judgment Seat of Christ. II Cor. 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
As a pump, Ed's heart is working about half as hard as it should. They are trying to compensate by giving him medicine that expands the blood vessels plus having him raise his heart rate during what exercise they think he can take on five days of the week. From where I sit to wait on him, I notice that the nurses set Ed's treadmill a lot slower than anyone else's. I suppose it is that way on all the equipment. But, I think Ed is the oldest too. He is 74. That alone should make some difference.
Incoming Email Marilyn, the other morning I was contemplating our recent exchange about the word "Apostasy", and related words, a little frustrated we couldn't find what we were looking for. My thoughts began to turn to the Jewish leaders in the time of Jesus, and I suddenly realized it wasn't the second coming hidden from their eyes, it was the first. They were looking for the second coming. They got the first. Can this logic be applied to the Rapture? It seems to me it can.
I think most, (not all) of Christiandom is looking for a rapture. The question is when? (pre-trib, or pre-wrath). It seems as the first coming of Christ was hidden in scripture, so is the first rapture. Looks to me like the Lord has made rather plain the second while obscuring the first on both counts. No?
My reply I hadn't thought of it that way before. Both Raptures seem plain to me. However, they are obviously not that plain to everyone, for all do not agree. Rev. 7:14,15 is pretty clear as to the time of the second one. It is placed between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals and says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." They are in Heaven just before the seventh seal is broken on the Day of God's Wrath, before the seven trumpet judgments hit Earth. That "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations" was not kept FROM any of the 2300-day shortened Tribulation except most of the very last day. The "great mountain burning with fire" (Rev. 8:8) that impacts the Mediterranean Sea hits at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5), and the Tribulation saints are in Heaven before that.
Let's work backward from that and see what we find. Fire falls that same day, therefore the Second Rapture is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:29-37 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (this is the day the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 is seen)....I tell you, in that NIGHT (maybe one side of the Earth) there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field (DAYTIME, maybe the other side of the Earth); the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the BODY (Body of Christ, Rom. 12:5; I Cor. 12:27) is (in Heaven), thither will the eagles (flying Tribulation saints, who "shall mount up with wings as eagles," Isa. 40:31) be gathered together."
Mark 13:24-27 also shows when this Rapture of the Tribulation saints is to take place. It says, "after that tribulation (the Great Tribulation)...then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds (see the Sign of the Son of Man) with great power and glory, And then (sixth seal, when "heaven departed as a scroll," (Rev. 6:14) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect (all of them) from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (Church saints).
So far we have a few uncovered a few loose ends.
(1) If the Rapture of the Tribulation saints is as the days of Lot, when fire falls, when is the Rapture that is as the days of Noah, when no fire falls?
Mt. 24:37-40 says, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And KNEW NOT until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
(2) If the Body of Christ is already in Heaven, where the Tribulation saints are to be gathered together, when did it get there?
The Body of Christ is seen in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. In Rev. 5:9, we see in Heaven people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They are there before the great multitude come out of the Great Tribulation (Rev. 7:14).
(3) Since the Tribulation saints have "washed their robes" (Rev. 7:14), where are those Philadelphians who were already wearing white robes?
The Philadelphians are already in Heaven. They are kept FROM the Tribulation that is to come upon the whole world. Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (waiting), I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial, putting to proof, from peirazo, to test, prove), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try (peirazo, test, prove) them that dwell upon the earth."
The two Raptures are "the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man. Lu. 17:22-30 says, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the Son of man (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them (during the Tribulation)....And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man...Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven...Even thus shall it be in the day (Pre-Wrath Rapture) when the Son of man is revealed" (the Sign of the Son of Man).
> It seems as the first coming of Christ was hidden in scripture, so is the first
> rapture. Looks to me like the Lord has made rather plain the second while
> obscuring the first on both counts. No?
Yes. I really appreciate your sharing your insight on this with me. No matter how I approach the subject, I can see two Raptures. However, as you noticed, the time of the Second one is told us plainly. The timing of the first must be understood from more subtle statements, like "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (after the Pre-Trib Rapture) (Rev. 4:1). As soon as that happens, the people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (5:9) are seen in Heaven before the seals begin to be opened as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6.
It is as Isaiah told us, "THE righteous perisheth (abad, wander away), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (acaph, TAKEN UP, GATHERED UP, WITHDRAWN, REMOVED), none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY (acaph) from the evil to come (the Tribulation). He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither (during the Tribulation), ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (Isa. 57:1-3).
Incoming Email Sorry about my lack of understanding of his viewpoint in some areas which are wrong, but about those cities (Tyre) in particular which are to be built???? Babylon???
My reply I don't think anything has to happen before the Rapture. I think literal Babylon will be made the world capital during the Tribulation. It can be built during the Tribulation. Buildings can go up fast these days. A lot of the references to Tyre are symbolic. Let's look at some of them and see of it needs to literally be rebuilt.
Tyre means rock. I think Satan is the KING OF THE ROCK that will strike Earth and destroy Babylon. Much that is said about Tyre may be a veiled reference to Satan's rock or to the final Babylon.
In Ezek. 28, the rebuke of the PRINCE of Tyrus is directed at the Satan possessed False Prophet. The lamentation against the KING of Tyrus is directed at Satan himself.
Ezek. 28:2-10 is the "little horn" of Dan. 7:8,20,24. Ezekiel said, "Son of man, say unto the PRINCE of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and NOT GOD, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee: With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches (probably partly by confiscating Christian's bank accounts when they won't take the Mark of the Beast), and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches."
Ezek. 28:12-18 is addressing Satan as king of the rock. It says, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (both the earthly and heavenly ones); every precious stone (symbolic of a planet) was thy covering (fencing in, surroundings), the (1) sardius (Mercury), (2) topaz (Venus), (3) and the diamond (Earth), (4) the beryl (Mars), (5) the onyx (Rahab, Satan's planet, now our Asteroid Belt), (6) and the jasper (Jupiter), (7) the sapphire (Saturn), (8) the emerald (Uranus), (9) and the carbuncle (Neptune), (10) and gold (Pluto)...Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (guards, Gen. 3:24); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God (#7); thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire (Rahab is #5 out of 10). Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I WILL CAST THEE (Isa. 22:18 has "toss thee like a ball") as profane out of the mountain of God (#7): and I WILL DESTROY THEE, O COVERING CHERUB, FROM THE MIDST (Rahab and a piece of it, an asteroid) OF THE STONES OF FIRE. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground...Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries (both on Earth and in the heavenlies) by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick: therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I WILL BRING THEE TO ASHES UPON THE EARTH."
In Scripture, questions are often to make us stop and think. Ezek. 27:32 asks, "What city is LIKE (symbolic languange) Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea." I think the answer is Babylon. Verses 33-36 continue: "When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise. In the time when thou shalt be broken by the seas in the depths of the waters thy merchandise and all thy company in the midst of thee shall fall. All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance. The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT BE ANY MORE."
Rev. 18:18 echoes, "What city is like unto this great city!" The next few verses say, "alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and the holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone (an asteroid), and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and SHALL BE FOUND NO MORE AT ALL."
Concerning Tyre in Isa. 23:7, it asks, "Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her AFAR OFF TO SOJOURN." The next verse says, "Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the Earth." Then verse 13 says, "Behold THE LAND OF THE CHALDEANS (Babylon)...they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin." Verse 15 says that Tyre will "sing as an harlot." Babylon is also called a harlot. In verse 17, Tyre "shall commit fornication (joining) with ALL THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH." So will Babylon. I am not convinced that Tyre will actually be rebuilt, although she may.
Pro and Con 236 Or Return
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