Pro and Con 236
Uploaded 12-26-98, AM
Incoming Email what happened we are still here!
My reply Good morning. Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays. You might want to read
http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/pentecost1999.html for more information on this.
Now is the time to be strong, to confess all our sins committed since we accepted Christ and to make sure we are ready. We want to be accounted worthy.
Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
The Lord will come exactly as he planned before the world began. Just be ready and watching. He is in complete control. The wake-up call has sounded. Don't hit the snooze button. I think this is the most important time to stay ready and watch. It looks like this is when Satan is being allowed to sift us as wheat. It may make the difference between the wise and foolish virgins.
I think maybe we are being tested to prove that we are wise virgins. The Jewish espousal was usually 12 months to prove the bride was a virgin. Queen Esther was purified 12 months also. I'm hoping for the Rapture on Pentecost, 1999.
That's all I have time to write at this time. I have to go get some breakfast and make cooked dressing for the fruit salad to take to a family gathering. If you still have questions after reading the file, please do email me again.
His reply thank you so much for writing me back. I personally do not beleive in date settting but Jesus did say to know the time and the seasons. I used to beleive in a pre trib rapture but after much study and soul searching I beleive I will be SAVED FROM WRATH BUT WILL GO THROUGH AT LEAST TO THE SEALS OR BOWLS. I am a jail and prison minister and keep up with end times. I have been accused of scare tactics and I always say good I hope it scares the hell out of them. I beleive that the pre trib rapture is a hoax of Satan that he will use to really scare Christians who will not know what is happening. I beleive that in 1999 this old world will rock and roll. Bill Clinton in all his treachery is Gods man for the hour. I also beleive that the pope will play a key role in the proceedings. Look for Israel and the plo to hook it up. I beleive that we have taken the side of Arafat and because of it we now will pay the price for all the sin and abortion and and andetc. I tell people this that it is high time to put away the toys and games and learn to hear Jesus for your self. Russia and China with thanks to Bill now have all their new knowledge of weaponry. What bothers me the most is the apathy I see in the church. Jesus is coming soon and very soon and people better start paying attention.
My reply Since you do not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, I would appreciate it if you would tell me what you think Luke 21:36 means. Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN." The word translated "escape" is the Greek "ekpheugo," TO VANISH FROM. If we vanish from here in time to escape ALL these things, don't we escape before the Tribulation?
Maybe we should read it in context. In Lu. 21:28-36, Jesus said, "And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then LOOK UP, and LIFT UP YOUR HEADS: FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (nations); When they now shoot forth (Strong's, proballo, 'to throw forward, i.e. push to the front'), ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand (the Six-Day War, when Israel grew leaves [Mt. 24:32-34], started June 5; summer started June 21). So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily (i.e., this is important) I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (the Tribulation) come upon you unawares. For as a snare (trap) shall it (the Tribulation hour of trial, Rev. 3:10) come on ALL them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ('ekpheugo,' TO VANISH FROM) ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."
Rev. 3:9-11 says, "behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (waiting), I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly (the Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."
For me, I am holding my "blessed hope" fast. I am so sorry you have let it go. What is your "blessed hope"?
Titus 2:12-14 says, "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world: Looking for that BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem (i.e., on the day of redemption) us from ALL iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
The Laodiceans are not "zealous of good works," for in Rev. 3:19, Jesus said to them, "As many as I love, I rebuke and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent." How does Jesus "chasten" the lukewarm Laodiceans? In Rev. 3:16, he says, in brutally clear language, "I will spue (lit., vomit) thee out of my mouth." When? Rev. 4:1 says, "Come up hither." That is the Pre-Trib Rapture, when those "redeemed...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) show up in Heaven.
In Lu. 12:42-46, Jesus said, "Who then is that faithful and WISE steward (i.e., wise virgin), whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat (not baby food) in DUE SEASON? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) shall find so doing....But and if that servant say in his heart, MY LORD DELAYETH HIS COMING; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he LOOKETH NOT FOR HIM, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off), AND APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION (the Tribulation up to the Pre-Wrath Rapture between the sixth and seventh seals, Rev. 6:12; 7:14; 8:1) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
In Rev. 3:3, Jesus said, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." He comes as a thief at the Pre-Trib Rapture on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.
Right after the Rapture passage in I Thess. 4:13-18, I Thess. 5:2-4 says, "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them...But ye, brethren, are NOT in darkness, That that day should overtake you as a thief."
There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture people that are "redeemed...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Rev. 5:9 are in Heaven before the Tribulation begins in Rev. 6. The Pre-Wrath Rapture people "which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" in Rev. 7:14 appear in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the seventh seal in Rev. 8.
Chapter 7 ends with, "and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Why were they crying? Because, as the sixth seal broke, "there was a great earthquake; and, the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and isleand were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth...hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:12-17).
The Tribulation saints are caught up in Rev. 7, then the Day of God's Wrath begins in Rev. 8. If one misses the Pre-Trib Rapture, they shall have weeping and gnashing of teeth. If they wait for the Pre-Wrath Rapture, they will also have tears. Is that a "blessed hope"? Are those comforting words? The Pre-Trib Rapture passage in I Thess. 4:18 says, Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day. These are the two Days of the Son of Man.
Jesus said, "The day will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the days (plural) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it...And as it was in the says of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man....Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot" (Lu. 17:22-29).
I want to be counted worthy to escape all the things of the Tribulation. I want to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. I am not watching for the appearing of the man of sin. I am watching for the appearing of the Lord from Heaven. Maranatha.
Incoming Email Ron Graff wrote:
May the Lord Jesus be especially close and real to you today as we celebrate His birth! The coming year should be a great time of ministry for all of us. Isn't it wonderful to be able to serve Him?
In Christ, Ron Graff
Prophecy Central: http://www.Bible-prophecy.com
My reply You bet. I want to serve Him forever.
Lambert Dolphin's chart of the endtimes I saw on your site (http://www.ldolphin.org/eschat.html) has the Rapture at the beginning of the Tribulation. I agree pretty much with the chart except I think there will be a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation. It looks to me like The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Rapture, when he is revealed to the Church.
I think the last book of the Bible, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is written as if the Rapture is at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first chapter and the last chapter (1:3; 22:10). In 22:20, Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly. He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5,16; 3:11).
Just as our movie directors show a Preview at the beginning of a movie, the first chapter of Revelation seems to be a Preview of Christ at the time of the Rapture. The churches are all around him, and he has in his hand the star performers that he has just snatched up. Rev. 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture), and the things which are (the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter ("hereafter" the Rapture, 4:1).
In the messages to the seven churches, Jesus is seen as in the Preview, i.e., when the Rapture is "at hand." To Ephesus, he is "he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (2:1). He tells them to "do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (2:5). That is a warning when the Rapture is "at hand."
To Pergamos, Jesus is "he which hath the sharp sword with two edges" (2:12). He tells them, "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth" (2:16).
To Philadelphia, Jesus is the one "that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth: and shutteth, and no man openeth" (3:7). He tells them, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (waiting), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (pierasmos, trial, i.e., the Tribulation), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly" (3:10,11).
In each message, Jesus goes back, grabs a bit of the history of that group and stretches it up to the present (even to the "great tribulation" to Thyatira, 2:22) so that we also have a record of church history. However, the final thrust of each message is for us today, when the Rapture is at hand. We still have young churches, churches under persecution, under Imperial favor, under the Papacy, churches that have come out of the Reformation, churches that show brotherly love and for whom Jesus has no words of condemnation, and lukewarm churches.
In Rev. 4:1, the actual "Come up hither" transports people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (5:9) to Heaven. Then Jesus starts to show us "things which must be hereafter" (4:1). It is as if he stands on the pinnacle of the Rapture to view future events. The "hereafter" things start with the beginning of the Tribulation in chapter 6, but there are some parenthetic passages sandwiched in between the Tribulation events.
Revelation 17 is such a passage. It does not follow the seventh vial of 16:17. It goes back to the time of the Rapture. This reveals something to us that has been misunderstood before. Rev. 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Tower of Babel, Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome) , and one is (at the time of the Rapture), and the other is not yet come; and when he (the Beast) cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not (Satan), even he is the eighth (inhabiting the False Prophet), and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." The first empire being the Tower of Babel fits verse 5: "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH," because that was where the Mystery Religion of Babylon began.
We can also see that this is viewed from the point of the Rapture because verse 14 says, "he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful."
If The Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand, the ten kings of Rev. 17:12 'have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast." Yet, as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13:1, the "ten horns" have their "ten crowns." Thus, I think there must be a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. Agape and Shalom
Incoming Email Re: Fig tree
Marilyn, on your site you say:
"In modern days, Israel was reborn in 1948. That + 19 = 1967, the Sign of the End of the Age. This fit the Fig Tree Parable. "When his branch (modern Israel) is yet tender ('apalos,' young, i.e., can be no more than 19), and putteth forth leaves...This generation (that saw the fig tree grow) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." 1948 + 19 = 1967 + 40 = 2007."
Is it a botanical fact that a fig tree is no longer considered "young" after age 19? If true, that is amazing. I do not doubt, but would love verification.
Also, what were the "leaves" that were sprouted? Gaza, Golan Heights, West Bank, Jerusalem??? Are those correct? Any more?
Happy birthday! I turned 68 in November and I am catching up with you. When you were two and I was born, you were twice my age. Since then I have been getting proportionately closer, and as we get close to infinity we will be virtually the same! Thanks
My reply Thanks for the birthday wishes. I knew we were fairly close in age when you told me that our all-star player, Cecil Puckett, at Kingsport, TN, kept your Chattanooga football team from being state champions. Can't remember if I told you, but I came to Chattanooga with the team. I was in the band, and since we were state champs in football every year I was in High School, they sent the band to all the games.
In my head, I have a very clear picture of being up on Lookout Mtn. I think it was when Ed and I went through there on a vacation trip some years later though.
> Is it a botanical fact that a fig tree is no longer considered "young" after age 19?
> If true, that is amazing. I do not doubt, but would love verification.
I haven't the foggiest. :-) That would be amazing. Please doubt that one. I would need verification on that too. What I was talking about was Israel, which is symbolized by the fig tree.
When Israel came out of Egypt, all the males of 20 and over were counted. They were of age to go to war. All 19 and under were not counted as they were too young. They were the ones to go into the promised land with Joshua and Caleb. Therefore, I think it is significant that Israel was 19 when the Sign of the End of the Age took place in 1967. At that time, they grew four leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and West Bank, which included Jerusalem and the temple area), thus fulfilling the Fig Tree Parable of Mt. 24:32-34.
Their taking Jerusalem also fulfilled Luke 21:24, which says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Since that time, I think Israel is living out another 40-year period of testing and probation, from 1967 to 2007 (actually to Tishri 1, 5768, our Sept. 13, 2007).
I think Isa. 8:9 just might have an application in our days. It says, Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of FAR COUNTRIES (sounds like all the world): gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces...Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us."
According to Ezek. 38, the united nations' army under Gog will attack Israel. I think that will be the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, Tishri 1, 5768, our Sept. 13, 2007, the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). That day, God's fury will come up in his face (38:18). Ezek. 38:19,20 says, "Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (sight, as in Ezek. 36:31, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man), and the mountains (plural, i.e., the two pieces of the asteroid, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."
I think the great mountain burning with fire will impact the Mediterranean Sea and kill all but 1/6th of Gog's army (Ezek. 39:2), washing them out of Israel's hair. This is the Feast of Trumpets when Israel will blow the alarm, and the Lord will fight for them that day. I think this is the day when all Israel will be saved in a day (Isa. 66:8).
Incoming Email Re: "Waiting on God?"
That's the name of a British comedy about - well you can figure out the rest I'm sure.
I have to believe that the Lord is watching over you and Ed. You are in my prayers, if not the prayers of many. I wish to thank you for all the study and sharing you've provided for so many of us this past year. It seems we wait alot any more.
"The Lord's Return". Everyone has been in error over this one. Not one single page has been accurate. Although we have for many varied reason, wanted the Lord's return to be this past year, yet He did not come. What makes the following year any more bright for the prospect of His return? (Yes, I've read your report for 1999). There certainly seems to have been more reasons for 1998 to be the year than 1999.
I wonder, if at the first advent, surely there must have been true zealots who anticipated His arrival (discounting the wise men), much as there are zealots anticipating Him today. Did that alter the course of God? No. Is it any different today? I don't think so. I also wonder, how, if someone with as much insight as you have, and are still in the dark, does He expect someone of lesser understanding or learning to be prepared.
I've read numerous other pages from grematia to "prophets" of today, the constant guessing, the "thus saith the Lord", and the totality of error is overwhelming. No wonder there is a credibility gap. Why would an unbeliever want to be involved with such a belief?
Obviously, we are making a faith statement, in that with no viable indication of support, we still are - "Waiting on God?"
In Christ, By faith, In His Name - God bless
My reply Yes, we are still waiting on God. It brings Rev. 3:10,11 to mind, "Because thou hast kept the word of my PATIENCE (hupomone, cheerful endurance, constancy, patient continuance, waiting), I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation (pierasmos, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."
Our trial will be as nothing compared to the Tribulation that will try those that dwell on Earth. We have much to gain by our patient continuance and holding fast in these days. I appreciate your prayers.
Incoming Email ...I was able to get your site, although it downloads very slowly right now when surfing the links, is all. You were right about the "catast" link being of interest to me; I went to it before even returning to your e-mail to get the link. I've come to the conclusion that there was a pre-Adamic stage of creation as well (no humans, but of the type that you mention), and was convinced that there was more in the Bible than I knew about yet to back this up. I'm glad to see that your study is so indepth. In the future, I might want to work partially from your notes, and/or link to it from my Q/A, as I get asked about this from time-to-time, and this topic is of great interest to many who are fascinated in things like Atlantis, Stonehenge and the Pyramids. (Are you already familiar with www.mt.net/~watcher ? She makes a good case for these being built by angels during the pre-adamic time, and the sphinx's face being a combination of the Leo/Virgo constellations, representing both "comings" of Christ.) This type of study has an evangelistic potential is all I'm inferring, since you're already familiar with my writing style.
I also enjoyed your article on 2 raptures, as I've also come to that conclusion from study - again, not as eloquently as you have been able to detail it. It seems that due to being challenged repeatedly on this issue, I've put more study into the Rapture since posting my site, than I ever had to before. Oddly, as long as I've been saved, and began to learn about the Rapture in general, I've always considered it a disappointment for some reason... for whatever reason, I've always wanted to be a part of the End-Times saints! Not that I'm going to go out and get in terrible sin, just to make sure I "miss" the first one, but it's just the evangelist in me ("to live is Christ..."). Believe it or not, I've prayed many times to Him to let me stay until the very end!...
My reply On my site, the first 100 Pro and Cons are on a remote site. All else is on my server. I ran out of room and started removing one to add one. Someone very nice offered to put 100 on his web site. Keep this in mind when navigating.
> I might want to work partially from your notes, and/or link to it from my Q/A
You can use anything from my site as long as you give me credit for it. You may link to my site also.
> Are you already familiar with www.mt.net/~watcher?
Yes. We correspond. They read my first book, "Exit: 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed," before setting up their web site. We agree on some things and disagree agreeably on others.
> I've put more study into the Rapture since posting my site, than I ever had to before.
I doubt if one could teach without also learning at the same time. That is one thing that keeps it fun.
> I've prayed many times to Him to let me stay until the very end!
Be careful what you pray for, you might get it. Do you realize how horrible it is going to be during this trial that is to come upon all the world? Not being able to buy or sell will also mean that one might not be able to get lifesaving medicine. Bank accounts of Christians will very likely be confiscated. If investments have to be paid by check or through a bank account, those could be forfeited too. Christians will be killed. Rev. 13:7 says, "And it was given unto him (the Beast) to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." That is during the first half of the Tribulation. In the second half, the Satan indwelt False Prophet will attempt to "cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Rev. 13:15). He will also seek to kill the Messianic Jews (Rev. 12:17). Remember the holocaust. Something like it could very well happen again.
Christ didn't tell you this for nothing: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). If I were you, I would obey this command....
Pro and Con 237 Or Return
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