Pro and Con 237
Uploaded 12-27-98, AM
Incoming Email I hope you and your family are having a very merry Christmas and that the new year will be filled with His blessings for all of you.
In PC 236 (reference your reply to his reply) you ask the respondant to tell you how he would intrepret Luke 21:36. You then quote the passage and point out that the "word translated "escape" is the Greek 'ekpheugo,' TO VANISH FROM," and you suggest that the meaning of "vanish from" is to "escape before the Tribulation?"
I have checked both Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and the New American Standard Concordance and neither of these suggests "to vanish from" as a possible meaning. Both suggest "to flee from." The primary root word "pheugo" is translated literally or figuratively as meaning "to run away from," and by implication "to shun." Either concept is intuitively more in keeping with the idea of having "the strength" necessary "to flee from" or "to shun" all the tribulation events being described in Luke 21. The concept of "vanish" is only used as an analogy in the root word to suggest leaving (flee) the scene.
My question, then, is this: are we not playing loose with words when, in the absence of other convincing evidence, we try to attach the meaning "vanish" to the word "ekpheugo?"
My reply I had to drive over 100 miles to be with the family Christmas, but it was worth it. We had a great day. Ed, Dave and I are planning to celebrate my birthday and Christmas at Home Town Buffet Tuesday. We didn't get to go the other day because our grandson didn't want to go at that time.
In Luke 21:36, maybe "to flee away" or "to seek safety in flight" would suit you better. You decide. Here are some things to consider.
Strong's 1628, ekpheugo, says, "from 1537 and 5343; to flee out: --escape, flee."
__Number 1537 is ek, which can be translated "from, out (of place, time or cause."
__Number 5343, phuego, says, "to run away (lit. or fig.); by impl. to shun; by anal. to vanish: --escape, flee (away)."
Thayer's says of ekpheugo, "to flee out of, flee away; a. to seek safety in flight."
__Ek, "exit or emission out of, as separation from, something with which there has been close connection...from out of, out from, forth from...from the midst (of a group, number, company, community) of many."
__Phuego, "to flee away, seek safety by flight...to be saved by flight...poetically, to flee away i.q. vanish."
A different word is translated "escape" in I Cor. 10:11-15. It says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation (peirasmos, trial, proof, test) taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted (peiraszo, tried, proved) above that ye are able; but will with the temptation (peirasmos, trial, proof, test) also make a way to ESCAPE (ekbasis, Young's: "a going up out of;" Strongs: "an exit"), that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say."
Rev. 3:9-11 says, "I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience (waiting), I also will keep thee FROM (ek, Green, "out of") the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial, proof, test), which shall come UPON ALL THE WORLD (the Tribulation), to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5; 22:20, "Surely I come quickly").
Regardless of which words we choose to use, I personally think these refer to the Pre-Trib Rapture, when we will experience "a going up out of" and will "exit" Earth.
Incoming Email The Constellations have always been used by people in the past for Signs and for Seasons. People now adays aren't familiar with them, but it the past, even the youngest person was very knowledgable of them. For instance, Sailors had a personal interest in the Gemini Constellation. In fact in Acts 28:11, a ship was named after the Twins-Castor and Pollux. The reason for this is that when the Twins rose above the eastern horizon in the fall, than all the Sailors knew it was time to winter the ship, because rough weather was on the way. And then, when this constellation set, they knew it was time to head for the docks again, because fair weather had arrived. Hence Gemini was the 'Patron Saint' so to speak, of Sailors.
And if Cancer was indeed a SheepFold, then all Shepherds, grazing their flocks up in the hills, would know to head for the Fold when Cancer rose above the horizon. And likewise, when it set the following spring, they would know that it was safe to bring the sheep out to pasture.
Now, because of the precession of the equinox (I think) we are moving from Pisces into Aquarius. This is backwards across the 'ecliptic' that the constellations move on, so we are 'loosing' a constellation. This takes place roughly every 2,000 years. So, for instance, 2,000 years ago Castor and Pollox would rise above the horizon in November. Now, they start their 'race' in December. Cancer would rise above the Horizon in December 2,000 years ago, but now he rises in January.
Now, the Constellations have been divided into four cardinal points as some of you know. Aquarius, Leo, Taurus and Scorpio. Scorpio was represented by an Eagle (the natural enemy of the scorpion and serpent:also, was the serpent winged before the fall?). So that each one of these four cardinal constellations would have one constellation on its left and one on its right, that would be in the same Camp as one of the Cardinal Constellations. This is exactly the same as the encampment of the Israelites in the Wilderness (see Numbers Chapter 2). It fact, as some of you are aware, each on the tribes was 'assigned' one of the constellations. So than the four Cardinal Constellations became the Standard of that Camp, that was made up of three tribes (constellations). This should be kept in mind, because, just like the Temple, this is a type of things in Heaven.
Now, concerning the Temple on Earth, which was set up to be a duplicate of the Temple in Heaven, we know that it faced East. Hence, when the Lord resided over the Mercey Seat in the Holy of Holies, He would have been facing East, or towards the Eastern Horizon. This is our reference point, or Tare.
Now, this is where it is going to start coming together. In God's Temple in Heaven, there are Four Beasts that are 'around' the throne. They are described by Ezekial on two occasions, and John on a third occasion. They are described as having the Faces of: A Man (Aquarius) A Lion (Leo) A Bull (Taurus) and an Eagle (Scorpio). These Four Beasts represent the Four Cardinal points. This is not my opinion, this I have read about by a couple of different authors. Any one who has read about Biblical Astronomy should be able to verify this. Ezekial describes the 'movements' of these 'Cherubs', having wheels within wheels. And I believe that MJAgee also talks about this as refering to an 'orbit'. So, in other words, these Cherub make a Circuit around God's Throne. And, as is more than likely (as you will see) this 'orbit' of the Four Beasts is a type of the 'orbit' of the Constellations around the 'ecliptic'.
Now, Ezekial 1:10, describes these Beasts as 1)Man 2)Lion 3)Bull 4)Eagle. What I think is important is the Order of occurance. In describing something in a circle you could go Clockwise, Counterwise or even in order of proximity (as he seems to do here mentioning left side and right side). But you would need a Reference point (what I call a Tare) to begin with. A logical conclusion would be to start with the Cherub that is right in front of the throne. This would be between us and the Throne of the Father. But from the Fathers' perspective, He would be looking over this Cherubs head to the Eastern Horizon. And it is my contention that the Constellation on the Horizon would be identical to the Cherub that was before the Throne, that represented the Constellation (and tribe for that matter).
Now, I said all that to say all this: Ezekial, in chapter one, had a vision of the Four Cherubs in the fourth month (verse one). This is the same as our June/July. He describes the Cherubim, starting with The Man. This is a reference to the Constellation of Aquarious, and would include the constellations of Capricorn in Pisces, in the same 'camp'. And 2,000 years ago, the Constellation of Aquarious was directly above the Eastern Horizon in the month of July. If my theory is correct, than we should be able to verify this with his next account of the Cherubs, and you will see that it also matches.
In chapter eight, he starts his second description of the four Beasts. This, according to verse one, took place in the Six month. This is our August/September. In Chapter Ten (verse 14) he describes them is this order 1)Bull 2)Man 3)Lion 4)Eagle. He actually calls the Bull a Cherub, but from verse 22 we know that it is the same faces, so we know that this is the Bull. I believe this means that the Bull's camp was before the throne. This includes Aries and Gemini. And in September 2,000 years ago, Aries is on the Eastern Horizon. You can also see the Seven Sisters which ride on Taurus back. And the very next month he comes into full view. The fact that he is called a Cherub could mean that he was 'flying' above the Horizon, or Waxing like the moon. But either way he was just then coming over the Horizon, but not it full view. Hence, my theory seems plausible, as both times, the Cardinal Camp is indeed before the Throne, at the same time of year that its Constellation Camp is on the Horizon.
So, theoretically if we look at John' account of the Cherubs, we should be able to determine within three months, when he was "Caught Up" to Heaven. This could be important, since I believe that every pretribber believes that John's Catching Up is a Type of the Church's Rapture. This typology could possibly extend to the time of the Year of the Rapture.
So, in Revelation 4:7 John describes the Four Beasts in this order 1)Lion 2)Bull 3)Man 4)Eagle. If my theory is valid, and I believe that it is, than the Camp of the Lion should be above the Horizon. And you will see that 2,000 years ago, the Lion appears above the Eastern Horizon, in January. If this is the 'timing' of the Rapture, than January plus or minus one month, will be the time of the Rapture.
I haven't 'adjusted' these descritptions to fit my recent conclusion of a January Rapture. I was trying to figure out why they described them in different order each time. So I figured what would be their reference point, and then it just fell together. I looked at Ezekial's two referinces, and they fit like a glove. So, it was alittle surprising when I followed the same pattern and found The Lion Roaring Forth in January. You can make up your own minds.
I am still trying to nail down the year, but I would say that we must be real close!
My reply > They are described as having the Faces of: A Man (Aquarius) A Lion (Leo) A Bull (Taurus)
> and an Eagle (Scorpio). These Four Beasts represent the Four Cardinal points.
Thanks. Your information is both interesting and confusing to me. You'll have to help me understand everything you are saying.
I already know that the four beasts represent the cardinal compass points. The lion is east, the man south, the ox west and the eagle north.
I also know that the Tabernacle was in the center of the encampment, the Levites were around it. In Numbers 2, Judah (lion) was to the east. Reuben (man) was to the south. Ephraim (ox) was to the west. Dan (eagle) was to the north.
On Iyar 1, the order of mention in Numbers 2 was:
1. Judah (east)
2. Reuben (south)
3. Ephraim (west)
4. Dan (north)
On Tamuz 5 (June/July) the order of mention in Ezekiel 1 (KJV) was:
1. Man (Reuben, south)
2. Lion (Judah, east)
3. Ox (Ephraim, west)
4. Eagle (Dan, north)
On Elul 5 (Aug./Sept.) the order of mention in Ezekiel 10 was:
1. Cherub (= ox, Ephraim, west)
2. Man (Reuben, south)
3. Lion (Judah, east)
4. Eagle (Dan, north)
The order of mention in Rev. 4:7 is:
1. Lion (Judah, east)
2. Calf (= Cherub = ox, Ephraim, west)
3. Man (Reuben, south)
4. Flying eagle (Dan, north)
Vincent translated Rev. 4:6 as "in the midst of each of the four sides of the throne." I take this to mean that the lion is due east, the calf due west, the man due south, and the flying eagle due north.
If order of mention means anything, it seems that since the lion is mentioned first in Numbers 2, second in Ezekiel 1, third in Ezekiel 10, and first again in Revelation 4, the date of Iyar 1 (April 17 in 1999) could apply to both the first and last mention of these four beasts.
> Ezekial describes the 'movements' of these 'Cherubs', having wheels within wheels. And
> I believe that MJAgee also talks about this as refering to an 'orbit'. So, in other
> words, these Cherub make a Circuit around God's Throne.
I think the cherubim of Ezekiel 1 and 10 are the four terrestrial planets. Each planet rotates and orbits, so it faces all four compass points. The four orbits form concentric circles. However, I think God's Throne orbits "above the firmament that was over their heads" (Ezek. 1:26), i.e., farther out in space than the terrestrial planets. Therefore, I do not think that the four cherubim make a circuit around God's Throne. I think God's Throne makes a circuit around the four cherubim.
> And, as is more than likely (as you will see) this 'orbit' of the Four
> Beasts is a type of the 'orbit' of the Constellations around the 'ecliptic'
I think that these four beasts are different from the four cherubim. However, the four beasts could easily represent the movement of the constellations around the ecliptic.
> A logical conclusion would be to start with the Cherub that is right in front of the
> throne. This would be between us and the Throne of the Father But from the Fathers'
> perspective, He would be looking over this Cherubs head to the Eastern Horizon.
You lost me here. Please help me understand what you mean. I assume you are talking about the cherub/ox/calf that is to the west. If this calf is west of the central throne, how could the Father be looking over the calf's head to the Eastern Horizon?
> it is my contention that the Constellation on the Horizon would be identical to the
> Cherub that was before the Throne, that represented the Constellation (and tribe
Are you talking about when Taurus rises on the eastern horizon?
> 2,000 years ago, the Constellation of Aquarious was directly above the
> Eastern Horizon in the month of July.
I am struggling to understand. On my Planisphere (Latitude 42 north), when all of Aquarius is visible in the east at midnight, it is about July 4 in our days.
> in September 2,000 years ago, Aries is on the Eastern Horizon.
Still struggling. On my Planisphere, when all of Aries is visible in the east at midnight, it is about July 14 in our days. In the first comparison, both ended up in July. How can it happen that in the second comparison, one is in July, the other is in September?
> So, theoretically if we look at John' account of the Cherubs, we should be
> able to determine within three months, when he was "Caught Up" to Heaven.
This sounds like a good idea, if I could just see clearly how to figure it. Why is it "within three months"?
> 2,000 years ago, the Lion appears above the Eastern Horizon, in January.
For comparison again, on my Planisphere, when Leo is all showing in the east at midnight, it is around December 11. January here seems reasonable.
> If this is the 'timing' of the Rapture, than January plus or minus one
> month, will be the time of the Rapture.
Why use the setting of 2000 years ago? Revelation is written as if the Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). Wouldn't the signs point to our days? Of course, December 11 is past this year, but I took midnight to figure by. Did you have a different hour in mind?
> my recent conclusion of a January Rapture.
What else points to January?
Judah was mentioned first in Nu. 2. The lion that represents Judah was mentioned second in Ezek. 1. It was mentioned third in Ezek. 10. Then it is again mentioned first in Rev. 4:7. Do you think that since the lion/Judah was mentioned first in both Rev. 4:7 and Nu. 2:3, that Iyar 1 (Nu. 1:1) has a chance?
Incoming Email Well, I dunno. I can't see this description of the adorning jewels on the doors and walls of heaven as being anything but literal. I mean surely Pluto doesn't look like gold; it would have like no atmosphere and be gray like the moon. Surely the red planet is anything but bluish green like Beryl (you're talking with an ex-geology student here!!) Again, your Saturn description has some interesting qualities; and i will consider it somewhat further; but would it be natural for God's creation made most suitable at earth even in new bodies to reside where gravity is like enough to crush a man on earth??? And how about that heavenly city of equal dimensions coming to earth as the New Jerusalem; what, Saturn is coming to earth???
Here's something to consider. If you read about the land of Edom turning to pitch and everlasting desolation; it certainly sounds like hell on earth. Surely heaven could be here; especially considering the GEOLOGICAL changes on earth with a new satellite (heaven) between it and the moon; this may explain the mount of olives breaking; and the fire coming out of the earth (lake of fire).
Mull that one over in your mind.
My reply > I can't see this description of the adorning jewels on the
> doors and walls of heaven as being anything but literal.
I think it is better to take everything literally unless the Scripture gives us reason to think it is to be taken symbolically. I wasn't referring to the wall of jasper, the stones garnishing the foundations, or the pearly gates of New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:18-21. However, the sapphire does garnish the foundations. That ties in with the use of the sapphire symbol in the Old Testament.
> I mean surely Pluto doesn't look like gold
And up close, Earth doesn't look like a diamond. Neither does Saturn look like the modern concept of a blue sapphire. Saturn actually has golden clouds that look like some bands have been brushed with amber as they whirl around.
Job 36:32; 37:3; 37:18-22 in the Septuagint says, "He has hidden the light in his hands, and given charge concerning it to the interposing cloud...His dominion is under the whole heaven, and his light is at the extremities of the earth (so his light reaches Earth).
"Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heaven?...But the light is not visible to all (then it is visible to some); it shines afar off in the heavens, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north (upward) come the CLOUDS SHINING LIKE GOLD (Saturn has golden clouds): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty."
The words "like" and "as" are symbolic language. Ezekiel 1:26 (KJV) says, "And above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the terrestrial planets) was the likeness (symbolic language) of a throne, AS (symbolic language) THE APPEARANCE OF A SAPPHIRE STONE; and upon the likeness (symbolic language) of the throne was the likeness (symbolic language) as (symbolic language) the appearance of a man above upon it."
In spite of this reference to a sapphire, the next verse shows that from the equator upward, and from the equator downward, it looked amber. The sapphire is obviously symbolic. It describes the heavenly body rather well because sapphire means "dear to the planet Saturn," from the Sanskrit Sani (Saturn) and priya (dear). Mt. Sinai represented Heaven, and Sinai may also be derived from Sani.
> Surely the red planet is anything but bluish green like Beryl (you're
> talking with an ex-geology student here!!)
Then you know that the same hard gemstone can be clear (one covers the bar code reader in the supermarket), a ruby, or a sapphire, according to the trace minerals in it, also that the beryl comes in different colors. This subject is also confusing because no one seems to know for sure if the gems mentioned in the Bible are actually what the translators thought they were. That is not easy to pin down with any great degree of certainty.
All I am trying to show is that the Hebrew "cappiyr" (Strong's), or "sappir" (Young's), translated "sapphire," is symbolic of the throne of the LORD in Ezek. 1:26 and of the heavenly body ("paved work") under his feet at Mt. Sinai in Ex. 24:10. It is also the seventh stone listed in Ezek. 28, which is quite symbolic from verse 2 to 18.
> would it be natural for God's creation made most suitable at earth even in new
> bodies to reside where gravity is like enough to crush a man on earth???
There are bodies celestial (I Cor. 15:40). I trust the Creator to know how to change our bodies to make them work in another environment. I Cor. 15:51 says, "I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
> how about that heavenly city of equal dimensions coming to earth as the New
> Jerusalem; what, Saturn is coming to earth???
The city is seen "descending," maybe to orbit the Earth, in Rev. 21:10. I don't think the planet is coming down. I wonder if the city could actually be a satellite of Saturn. The city "lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth...twelve thousand furlongs (1363.64 miles). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal" (Rev. 21:16). These dimensions fit a sphere that is much smaller than Saturn, which is 74,600 miles in diameter. Even our Moon is 2,160 miles in diameter.
Don't let "foursquare" fool you. Isa. 11:12 mentions the "four corners of the earth." The word used is "kanaph," a wing, or quarter. This quartering is seen in the astronomical symbol of Earth, a circle divided into four quarters.
This is not all crystal clear. I have many questions about this too. We see through a glass darkly and are not given all the details, but New Jerusalem is the city of "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev. 21:9) at least in the early part of the Millennium. I wonder if Saturn is our eternal home and New Jerusalem our home during the Millennium. There are many things I'd like to know more about.
Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know" (they knew of Saturn in those days) (John 14:2-4). I wonder if New Jerusalem is just for the time we are to have a part in the Millennial government. Maybe we will know more soon.
These scriptures are interesting to think about. Are they veiled references to Saturn?
Psa. 68:13 says, "Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold." Do these "wings" represent Saturn's rings? They do look like wings at most angles of inclination. The clouds are yellow gold, so that fits Saturn.
Psa. 91:4 says, "He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust." Feathers of yellow gold could represent the clouds of Saturn. Under his wings interests me. Could it be possible that New Jerusalem is hiding in the shadow of the rings? or under the rings? I don't know, but I keep wondering.
Even Prov. 25:11 catches my eye. It says, "A word fitly spoken is like (symbolic language) apples of gold in pictures (maskiyth, figures) of silver." Gesenius has, "apples of gold, adorned with figures of silver." That sounds a lot like Saturn with its golden clouds and rings of silvery ice crystals.
> Here's something to consider. If you read about the land of Edom turning to pitch and
> everlasting desolation; it certainly sounds like hell on earth. Surely heaven could be
> here; especially considering the GEOLOGICAL changes on earth with a new satellite
> (heaven) between it and the moon; this may explain the mount of olives breaking; and
> the fire coming out of the earth (lake of fire).
Hell seems to be the bottomless pit, the center of the Earth. Heaven is not on Earth, but New Jerusalem may orbit Earth, not necessarily between Earth and the Moon, but within traveling distance. Rev. 21:26,27 says, "And they shall bring the glory of honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
Oh yes, I think the Lake of Fire is formed by the asteroid impact.
Lot's of food for thought here. Look for clues that might help us understand more fully. May God bless your search.
Pro and Con 238 Or Return
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