Pro and Con 238
Uploaded 12-29-98, AM
Re: Happy new year 1999!
Scanned your stuff. Looked like a fair amount of work. 1997-1998? Have we now entered the Millin? Or, did you make a mistake?
Yeah! a fair amount, just about every minute I can find. I used to stay up till 2:00 or 3:00 AM. After my bout with pneumonia last Christmas (1997), I now start wrapping it up after midnight. Sometimes that takes awhile, though. There are more words on my web site than in any one of my three books.
No, we are not in the millennial Day of the Lord. Elijah must come first (Mal. 4:5). He is one of the two witnesses that come as the Tribulation starts.
There seems to be an added block of time before the Millennium begins. It is the end of the ages, the Seventieth Week of Daniel, that is added to the ages as a trial that will come upon all the Earth to test those that dwell upon it. I think that it is separate on purpose so that it could be left out if Israel would turn to the Lord in time. It is their fifth cycle of discipline.
Lev. 26:23-28 says, "if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you (fourth cycle of discipline) yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant...And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury (fifth cycle of discipline); and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."
Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment." Time seems to be roughly 7000 years. Judgment seems to be about 7 years.
The 7000 years are divided into three 2000-year ages plus the 1000-year Day of the Lord. The three ages are the Age of the Gentiles, the Age of the Jews, and the Age of the Church.
From Dan. 9:27, we can see that the Age of the Jews is to be extended seven years. From I Cor. 10:11, we can see that all the ages are to share in the judgment of this seven-year extension. It says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS (plural) of the world (lit., ages) are come." This way, only one day of vengeance is necessary.
I think the Day of Vengeance will be the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). It is 40 years from the Sign of the End of the Age, the Six-Day War of 1967, when Israel grew leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golan Heights, West Bank). It is also 14 years (seven good years and seven bad years) from the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993. They were ratified in Israel three days later, on Tishri 1. Add 14 years to Sept. 13, 1993, and you get Sept. 13, 2007. Add 14 years to Tishri 1, 5754, and you get Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. The seven bad years run from 5761 (2001) to 5768.
God's blessings on the upcoming New Year.
BOSNIA SEEKS EU MEMBERSHIP December 22, 1998 The march toward unifying Europe continues. Reuters reported today that even Bosnia will soon apply to join the European Union and the World Trade Organization. Bosnian Deputy Economy and Foreign Trade Minister Nikola Grabovac told the press yesterday, "We will today or tomorrow apply for the entry into the European Union and the World Trade Organization."
Considering that there are 15 EU nations, if Antichrist will soon arise (say from Bosnia); there could very well be a situation soon with "10 heads and 7 horns"; if this could represent two parts of the same puzzle or perhaps 3 at the same time. What could happen is this; there are NOW 10 heads (the original member nations as were there since 1981) and 7 horns (the G-7). If the current number (of 15 EU nations) have an overpowering by the "king of fierce countenance" soon to come; and 3 (of the first nations) are pulled out by the roots (see Daniel); there would be 12 nations controlled by the 13th king (after the power of nation 14, 15 and 16; likely the United States and two original European nations being taken over by the forces of Antichrist into world government). Look at the Clinton impeachment coming likely in Spring 1999 to raise the hair on the back of your neck!!!!! If this all plays out next year, the EU flag will once again represent that hypnotic 12 star configuration with the 13th leader (being in reality the President of the EU?) would be like the leader of the New United States; but of Europe!!!!!!!
Tell me what you think. P.S. Nice to see your openness to new ideas in recent letters from people, that puzzle is coming together in it's final pieces even as I write this letter!!!
At one time, I thought the EEC had some connection with the ten kings. Now I don't. I think the Tribulation Pope will be elected head of the world government. To help him, all the nations are divided into ten divisions. (This division has already been decided upon.) The head of each division rules as a subsidiary under the Pope as the Tribulation begins. At the time of the Rapture, there are to be "ten kings, which have received NO kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour (the "hour of temptation," peirasmos, trial, of Rev. 3:10) with the beast" (Rev. 17:12).
> Nice to see your openness to new ideas in recent letters from people
Nothing makes me happier than to learn something new.
Re: US in Last Days
There has been many things written about what the US is
doing during the final days before Christ's return. I have been reading a
book written in 1990 by Charles Dyer: "The Rise of Babylon". It has been
very interesting, an overview of the history of Babylon and Sadism.
The part I wanted to share with you briefly is why the United States isn't
mentioned in the Bible as a player in the end time events--especially since
we are a major world power at this time. Many have written that we will be
wiped out by nuclear bombs--not my choice: It lifted my spirits and felt,
of course "why didn't I think of this before" Charles Dyer writes: "So
where does the United States fit into the picture? It is clear from
Scripture that the dominant political and military power will center around
the Mediterranean and Europe--not the United States. By the end times, the
United States will no longer be a major influence in the world. But such a
major role in the Middle East today?
First, it is possible that the United States is not mentioned in prophecy
because we will become a second-class international power overnight when God
removes Christians from the earth, an event scheduled to occur just before
the beginning of this seven-year period. True believers who have placed
their faith in Jesus Christ will be taken to heaven before the antichrist is
Today as many as half of all Americans claim to be "born again," or
believers in Jesus Christ. If only one-fourth of that number have genuinely
made a personal commitment to Christ, then over 28 million Americans will
suddenly "disappear" when God removes his church from the earth.
God Bless you and Ed--I read your pro cons and keep up with your news,
Love and prayers,
> "The Rise of Babylon"
I have the book.
> "So where does the United States fit into the picture?
All nations are part of the world government. I think that includes the US.
Second Samuel 7:23 says, "what ONE (echad, united) NATION in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you (Israel) great things and terrible (awe inspiring), for thy land, before thy people."
Israel was established as one nation, under God. The United States was established as "one nation," under God. On the back of our paper money is "In God we trust." Israel went into the land from another country and gradually took the land from those that were worshipping false gods. The same thing happened here. Have we done anything for Israel? Are we their staunchest ally? Think of Desert Storm. We told Israel not to retaliate, to leave it up to us. Are we still trying hard to take care of the problem? How many of our dollars went into the recent missile strikes? Millions. Just one missile of the first day's strike cost a million dollars. How many were sent in just in that one day?
> over 28 million Americans will suddenly "disappear" when God removes
> his church from the earth
That ought to shake something up. Some employers will be left with too few employees to get the work done. Some employees will be left with no employers, etc.
Re: Your interpretation of the Rapture
After spending some time reading again through your Rapture timeline
hypothesis, about the only response that I can come up with is "maybe"....
While your scholarly work and dissection of the Bible deserves tremendous
credit, your conclusions thereto, to-date, have not been accurate. You've
built your rapture timeline, not only upon your own study of the Bible, but
on the study and works of others whom you emulate. Your hypothesis is built
upon a number of pillars which you purport to be truth...ie: the 6000 years
of man's probation and testing since Adam was kicked out of the
garden......."your" interpretation of the wise and foolish virgins
parable...."your" interpretation of the fig tree parable.....and "your"
interpretations of what you deem to be types and similitudes throughout all
of Scripture which point to a "rapture" event.
The whole concept of the Rapture, if indeed we accurately understand that
event, was FIRST revealed by Paul in the New Testament..."behold I tell you
a mystery (ie: someting that was not known ever before)"...all other types
and similitudes which you've interpreted as "rapture-like" ie: passages from
Song of Songs, Psalms, etc...are simply your own reading into Scripture to
make it fit a pre-determined bias. Sometimes, with all your various Bible
translations and concordences, you seem to get wrapped up in the words as
opposed to understanding the spirit of those words. Sadly, that leads man
people to the inevitable conclusion..."am I going to be good enough to be
None of us know when a Rapture event will occur....gematria and bible code
adherents included....we've been given rather sketchy details of this future
event, but WHAT WE DO KNOW IS:
1.) At the Last Trumpet, the dead in Christ shall be raised first, then,
2.) All who are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds with the
Lord and so be with Him forever.
That is the sum total of the revealed propositional truth surrounding the
Rather than try to delve into areas which we will never know until it
occurs, it is a far better thing to understand God's protection for His
people as already demonstrated in the Old and New Testaments. Understanding
this will give people an better insight into God's character and His
promises. Read how he protected Lot and His family from destruction....how
he protected/delivered Noah and his family.....how he protected the children
of Israel when the angel of death came to visit the first-born in
Egypt....how he protected Rahab.....and so many others. These are the types
and similitudes which people NEED to understand, because they reveal God's
character and faithfullness to protect/deliver His people when His wrath
In His timing and when the fullness of things have come, God will pour out
His wrath upon the earth....BUT, He will be faithful to protect/deliver His
people from His wrath, just as He has done before.
While your hard work certainly needs to be commended, I believe your
conclusions will not come to pass when you think they will. These things
are all appointed and set by the Father, and we have far too little wisdom
in our finite and mortal minds to even begin to comprehend His wisdom and
I hope you devote more of your websight to revealing the truth of the Gospel
of Jesus Christ, not so much as it relates to a Rapture event, but to how
folks can use the Word of Truth in their everyday lives.
> simply your own reading into Scripture to make it fit a pre-determined bias
I have no "pre-determined bias." I simply want to know everything that the Lord put there in Scripture for us to find out. I let the chips fall where they may. If Scripture says something, I believe it. I follow no one but Christ.
> the Rapture, if indeed we accurately understand that event, was FIRST
> revealed by Paul in the New Testament..."behold I tell you
> a mystery (ie: someting that was not known ever before)"
The New Testament was concealed in the Old Testament, but it was there. What was hidden there was revealed in the New Testament. A mystery, "musterion," is, according to Thayer's Lexicon, "a hidden thing." It does not necessarily mean that it has to be a totally new thing. It can be something that is not fully understood.
> That is the sum total of the revealed propositional truth surrounding the
> Rapture event.
What about as it was in the days of Noah? the days of Lot? What about the virgins waiting for their Bridegroom? What about "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1)? What about those seen in Heaven "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9)? What about those "which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"?
> "am I going to be good enough to be Raptured?"
Great. We need to give it some thought. We don't want to be lukewarm Laodiceans who get spewed out of Christ's mouth (Rev. 3:16).
> I hope you devote more of your websight to revealing the truth of the Gospel
> of Jesus Christ, not so much as it relates to a Rapture event, but to how
> folks can use the Word of Truth in their everyday lives.
I think there are plenty of others that are capable of teaching the milk of the word. You could do it. Early on, I got a pretty good handle on it by one reading of the New Testament. It is not hard to understand. Basics get covered here, but so does some strong meat. I have found out some things that, to my knowledge, no one else had figured out ahead of me.
Long ago, c.1960-1967, I read about an 18" stack of books from BIOLA's Seminary Collection every week for seven years. In all of that reading, I could not find anyone who knew what the cherubim represented, what the flaming sword that turns every way really is, where Heaven is located, which was Satan's planet, what happened to it, etc.
I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It said to publish and conceal not. At that time, I told the Lord, "OK, I'll continue to study and write." I am doing my best to do exactly what the Lord wants me to do. I am furnishing a forum so people can ask questions and publish their findings. Their interests and needs determine which subjects are covered in the Pro and Cons. They learn and I learn; we put our heads together to figure things out. It isn't all about the Rapture, although that is of great interest since it is drawing nigh.
In the first century, the church was a babe. It is of full age now. The writer of Hebrews lamented the fact that, even in that early day, they could not go on to the strong meat. Heb. 5:11-14 says, "Of whom (Christ) we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (the church today), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
thank you again for your response. I respect your obvious
knowledge of the word and just because I disagree with you I will do
it agreeably. You asked me what my blessed hope was. It is in the fact
that it does not matter where I am or no matter what happens to me I
will be content because of the Holy Spirit in me. I see the
tribulation as a wonderful mission field for some one like me that God
has called to be an evangelist. Here is my question to you. It seems
to me that Paul told the Thessalonians that they would see the
AntiChrist and the abomination of desalation. The real point is this.
We need not worry no matter what plays out in the end becuse the
promise is he will not leave you or forsake you. Also I beleive the
church in general has fallen asleep at the wheel and people like your
self that are students of the word will be greatly used more and more
as the time gets shorter. I told the Lord I really hope I get to stay
awhile and reap a harvest. I am glad that the net gives me a chance to
meet wonderful brothers and sisters like you. I have only been on the
web about a month and a half. I finally got a good computer. Again
Thank you but I still agree more with Sid Roth who wrote the Pre Wrath
Rapture but the real bottom line is that no matter what happens I will
see you in heaven and it wont matter anyway. In His Love Your brother in Christ.
You have the right attitude. No two of us would ever agree on everything. The Bible is too deep. We should deal with each other in agape love and agree to disagree agreeably.
> You asked me what my blessed hope was. It is in the fact that it does not matter where
> I am or no matter what happens to me I will be content because of the Holy Spirit in me.
I guess what I really should have said was what is the "blessed hope" in Titus 2:13: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
> It seems to me that Paul told the Thessalonians that they would see the
> AntiChrist and the abomination of desalation.
We are not told to watch for the Antichrist. We are told to look for the appearing of Christ. Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."
In II Thess. 2:3, the word "apostasia," translated in the KJV as "a falling away," means departing, a separation, as in "apostacion," a divorcement (Young's: "A setting or standing off or away). Apostasia was translated as "departing" in early Bibles.
In II Thess 2:7,8, the very literal Concordant Version says, "Only when the present detainer (i.e., the Holy Spirit) may be coming to be out of the midst (at the Rapture), then will be unveiled the lawless one." The Jerusalem Bible says, "but let him who is restraining it once be removed, and the wicked One will appear openly." After the Rapture, the appearance of the wicked one will not be restrained any longer. God bless.
I am looking at the two rapture teaching that you are
talking about. I first heard it from Swaggart years ago but thought it
was hooey but in reality it may be the key to unlock a lot of
confusion.I will have to study some more on the parable of the virgins
again. Also I lean towards eternal security BUT i HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE
ALL IT SLOPPYAGAPE AND GREASY GRACE. Grace is a gift salvation is
freely given but it will cost you your life to walk with God. The
issue of salvation is supposed to be an intimate relationship with
Jesus that can ONLY happen when we take time to read the word and pray
and get to know him for ourselves one on one on a personal basis. A two
part rapture would clear up alot of verses that people use to say you
can lose your salvation. I beleive with all of my heart that the peace
treaty issue in the middle east will soon explode and something very
radical will happen that will finally bring the man of seeming peace
who is alive and kicking as we speak. No one will convince me that
this is not related to the end and we could still be here years down
the road. I read part of a book written in the twenties by a man that
thought that all that happened in 70 AD was the tribulation.He said if
not then Israel would have to form as a nation and they would have to
have Jerusalem as the capitol and the temple would have to be rebuilt
again. Then he hit me with a stunner by saying when a tree blooms it
is summer but later it is harvest. Summer was in 48 and now it is
harvest. The only part of Matthew 24 that bothers me is the fact that
Jesus made it sound like his second coming was imminent to them and
said some would still be alive to see it so how do we explain that
one. IN HIM
> I am looking at the two rapture teaching that you are talking about.
Father, I beseech you to bless his studies and open the eyes of his understanding. In Jesus' name, Amen.
Here are some things to think about as you mull this subject over in your mind. There are two Days of the Son of Man. In Lu. 17:22, Jesus said, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the days (plural) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it (as Laodiceans, spewed out of His mouth). And they shall say to you (in the Tribulation), See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them."
The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot.
The first Rapture is "as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man" (Lu. 17:26). Noah was lifted up above the tribulation that killed the rest of mankind. Marriage is mentioned (Mt. 24:37,38; Lu. 17:26,27), so it is probably the Bride of Christ. She is to be taken out of the Body of Christ as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam near his heart (symbol of love). Noah was faithful to do the Lord's will, even in the face of ridicule. All on the Ark were married. Even the animals went in two by two. No fire fell the day they went into the Ark.
The second Rapture is as the days of Lot. On that same day, fire fell (Lu. 17:29), just as it will the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. No marriage is mentioned, so this probably represents the remainder of the Body of Christ after the Bride of Christ is taken up. Lot chose to live in a community where evil was rampant. He probably represents carnal worldly believers. His wife didn't make it out. She chose to look back.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is described in I Thess. 4:13-18. It is at the first trump. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is described in I Cor. 15:51,52. It is at the "last trump."
These two trumps are the silver assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4, not the seven trumpet judgments. When one is blown, "the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." These are the elders of Rev. 4:4. When they are both blown, then "all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."
Consider Heb. 12:14,15,18,23,24: "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled...ye are not come unto the mount (Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, NOR unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest (i.e., not when the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth, not even when the sixth seal is broken and "the sun became black," Rev. 6:12)...But ye are come (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels. To the general ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus."
Israel was at Sinai on Pentecost. That was when the first trumpet of the Bible sounded. I think the Pre-Trib Rapture will be on Pentecost and the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets that kicks off the millennial Day of the Lord. The Church saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:1 and 5:9. The Tribulation "must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1). The Tribulation saints are seen in Heaven (Rev. 7:14) between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1).
> I lean towards eternal security
So do I. We cannot work for Salvation, but we can work for rewards. The Pre-Trib Rapture is a prize to be won by running the race and winning. In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul explains: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth THE PRIZE? So run, that ye may obtain (the Pre-Trib Rapture). And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible CROWN; but we an incorruptible (Rev. 3:11). I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (like the Laodiceans that are spewed out of His mouth). In Phil. 3:14, Paul said, "I press toward the mark for the PRIZE of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." The high calling is the "shout" of I Thess. 4:16 and the "Come up hither" of Rev. 4:1. It is the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> The only part of Matthew 24 that bothers me is the fact that Jesus made
> it sound like his second coming was imminent to them and said some would
> still be alive to see it so how do we explain that one.
Mt. 24 covers a lot of ground. In verse 3, they had asked Jesus "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)." When Jesus began Mt. 24:15, he definitely started relating things of the Great Tribulation. After that, he gave them the information about the Sign of the End of the Age in the Fig Tree Parable.
As for some being alive to see the Kingdom, Jesus referred to the Transfiguration. At that time, some saw Him as he will appear in His Kingdom. John saw him as He will appear at the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 1:13-16. John also saw Jesus Christ on the throne in New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:3).
Gotta go take Ed to Cardiac Rehab. If I didn't make something clear, please ask me again.
From: Ron Graff. (Re: my earlier EM about a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Tribulation
Hi Marilyn! Good to hear from you.
The main reason I don't see the Rapture at the same time as Christ's Second
Coming at the end of Revelation is that the Church is not mentioned from
the end of chapter 3 through the whole Tribulation.
However He wants to do it is fine with me! Blessings
Pro and Con 239 Or Return
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© 1998 Marilyn J. Agee