Pro and Con 239

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> ...In Numbers 2, Judah (lion) was to the east. Reuben (man) was to the south.
> Ephraim (ox) was to the west. Dan (eagle) was to the north.

What I think we have to remember here is that the encampment of the Israelites was 'stagnant' in the sense they they did not 'circuit' the Tabernacle. Judah was always on the east etc. As well the four compass points don't move...However, from our perspective, the Constellations are continuously in motion. This I believe is reprelicated by the Four Cherubs. Hence, they might make a circuit, or orbit around the throne. If that is the case, than the list of tribes would not help us to understand the Circut of the Cherubs and Constellaions. Judah was probably mentioned first, because of his status and because he was the Captain of the Camp that set up on the East side....

> If order of mention means anything, it seems that since the lion is mentioned first in
> Numbers 2, second in Ezekiel 1, third in Ezekiel 10, and first again in Revelation 4,
> the date of Iyar 1 (April 17 in 1999) could apply to both the first and last mention
> of these four beasts.

Yes, but here I limited myself to just the mentions of the Cherubs, because it was specifically a view of the Throne of Heaven, and not the camp of the Israelites...

> I think the cherubim of Ezekiel 1 and 10 are the four terrestrial planets. Each planet
> rotates and orbits, so it faces all four compass points. The four orbits form concentric
> circles.

I believe that this is possible, but I think that these Cherubs might be the Representation of the planets.

> However, I think God's Throne orbits "above the firmament that was over their heads"
> (Ezek. 1:26), i.e., farther out in space than the terrestrial planets.

This is possible, but I got the impression that it was the Floor of the Throne Room of Heaven (Gen 1:6; Job 37:18; Ex 24:10; Ez 1:22-28; 10:1; 1Cor 13:12: 11Cor 3:18; Rev 4:1-6; 15:2). In Ezekials first vision the Cherubs were on the earth with him, and the throne was above their heads. But in Revelation, John is in Heaven, the crystal sea is the floor, and the Four Beasts are there around the Throne. In other words, this Crystal Sea, is the division between Heaven and Earth. At one time it was specifically located atop Mt. Sinai. This also gives added meaning to The Lord, walking on the Water.

> Therefore, I do not think that the four cherubim make a circuit around God's Throne.
> I think God's Throne makes a circuit around the four cherubim. I think that these
> four beasts are different from the four cherubim.

I believe that they are the same....when Ezekial talks about four Cherubs...with faces of Man, Lion, Ox and Eagle; and John describes four Beasts (which means something like living creatures) as Man, Lion, Calf and Eagle; that they are the exact same Creatures. Thus, when they were on earth, the sea of glass was above their heads, but when they are in heaven, it is under their feet.

My reply

> the Constellations...might make a circuit, or orbit around the throne.

You may want to consider planets orbiting around the throne. The constellations would still represent the four compass points, the four faces of each planetary sphere.

I think the throne is on Saturn and the cherubim that Ezekiel saw are the four terrestrial planets. In Ezek. 1:1, he said "that the heavens were opened." He looked up, and in the midst of his vision was the sun, "a fire infolding itself," (1:4). Around the "amber" sun, he saw the four concentric orbits ("a wheel in the middle of a wheel," 1:16) of the terrestrial planets. One orbit was "upon the earth" (1:15). Therefore, I think the cherubim Ezekiel saw are Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars. They look like disks (1:7) but each is a full orb or sphere (1:18). Their "appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps" (1:13) as they reflect the "brightness (nogah, sunlight)" of 1:4.

Farther out in space, "above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone" (1:26). This represents Saturn because sapphire means "dear to the planet Saturn," from the Sanskrit Sani (Saturn) and priya (dear).

There was "brightness round about" Saturn "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain" (1:27,28). I think this represents the rings of Saturn.

If the four beasts of Rev. 4:6 represent the same thing as the cherubim, then they would be planets too. They too are full orbs or spheres. In Rev. 4:8, the four beasts each have six wings, where the cherubim are represented as having four wings (Ezek. 1:6). This suggests the seraphim.

Isa. 6:1-4 says of his vision, which is very symbolic like Ezekiel's, "I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne (Saturn), high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple (on Earth). Above it (the temple on Earth) stood the seraphims (Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto): each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke."

So far, we have the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto represented by symbolic figures. It makes a pretty neat picture of our solar system. I think Saturn is His throne and Earth is His footstool. The "sea of glass like unto crystal (ice)" of Rev. 4:6 represents the ringplane of Saturn, just as the "brightness round about" does in Ezek. 1:27.

At this point, we just might be able to see how the four beasts could be seen "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne" in Rev. 4:6. Jupiter is closer to us than Saturn. It could overlap Saturn when viewed from Earth. The other planets are farther away from us than Saturn. They could appear as if "round about the throne."

> I got the impression that it was the Floor of the Throne Room of Heaven (Gen 1:6;
> Job 37:18; Ex 24:10; Ez 1:22-28; 10:1; 1Cor 13:12: 11Cor 3:18; Rev 4:1-6; 15:2).

The "firmament" is the espanse of space. In Hebrew, it is "raqiya," expanse, i.e., visible sky. The great lights are literally in the firmament of the heavens (Gen. 1:14). Birds fly above the earth literally in the open firmament of heavens (Gen. 1:20).

Ex. 24:10 is symbolizing the heavenly body, the planet. It says, "And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were (symbolic language) a paved work of a sapphire stone (sapphire means 'dear to the planet Saturn,' from the Sanskrit 'Sani,' Saturn, and 'priya,' dear), and as it were (symbolic language) the body of heaven (heavenly body) in his clearness."

In Rev. 4:6 (KJV), it says, "before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal." The NEB says "a sea of glass, like a sheet of ice." I think this represents the ice crystals in Saturn's rings. They are a veritable ocean of floating ice crystals.

In Ezek. 1:22, the NEB says, "Above the heads of the living creatures (lively things) was, as it were (symbolic languange), a vault glittering like a sheet of ice."

> In Ezekials first vision the Cherubs were on the earth with him, and the throne was
> above their heads.

I think the Cherubim (terrestrial planets) were flying in the heavens, not all on Earth. Ezekiel's vision was of the heavens (Ezek. 1:1). in the center was the sun (1:4). Around the sun flying in concentric orbits were the lively things that represented the terrestrial planets. One orbit was upon the Earth because the Earth is one of the terrestrial planets. Above the terrestrial planet's heads, i.e., farther out in space, was an expanse of space. After that was a "sapphire stone" (representing Saturn) with a throne on it.

> But in Revelation, John is in Heaven, the crystal sea is the floor, and the Four
> Beasts are there around the Throne. In other words, this Crystal Sea, is the division
> between Heaven and Earth.

I think the crystal sea is the ocean of ice crystals that make up Saturn's ring system.

> Ezek. talks about four Cherubs...with faces of Man, Lion, Ox and Eagle...John describes
> four Beasts...Man, Lion, Calf and Eagle...they are the exact same Creatures.

In Ezekiel, the four cherubim (lively things) each had four faces that showed that they were spheres, because they faced all four compass points, north, south, east and west. These faces represented the four compass points when Israel camped around the Tabernacle. These cherubim were represented as having four wings.

In Revelation 4:6-8, there are four beasts. Instead of each of the four having four faces, these lively things are each "like" (symbolic language) one of the four faces of the cherubim. They are represented as having six wings.

I do not think the four faces of each cherubim (4 x 4 = 16 faces) in Ezekiel are equal to the four lively things of Rev. 4:6. However, I do think that both sets of lively things represent planets. I think the cherubim represent Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars. The seraphim, who have six wings in Isa. 6:2, seem to represent Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. As we will see later, all can be called cherubim, or the inner planets can be called cherubim and the outer planets can be called seraphim.

These planets all orbit. At different times, they appear at different places in relationship to one another. In Isa. 6:1,2, the seraphim were seen "Above" the throne of the Lord. In Rev. 4:6, they were seen "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne." This seems reasonable for the movement of planets along the ecliptic as viewed from Earth....

Don't worry about their wings. They represent flight. Don't worry about their speech. This is all very symbolic. When the Lord created Earth, the morning stars sang together. Psa. 19:1-4 says, "THE heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament (expanse of space) sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun."

The lineup does go through the Earth: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. "In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun." All of these planets are represented by the ten curtains with cherubim embroidered on them that covered the Tabernacle. Christ is the "Sun of righteousness" that shall "arise with healing in his wings" in Mal. 4:2. I am convinced that one of these planets, Saturn, is Christ's throne. It is marked with his rainbow, the seven rings.

Zech. 3:8,9 in the Septuagint says, "behold, I bring forth my servant The Branch. For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes (orbs, circles, rings).

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Re: second half of your letter...
> "If this calf is west of the central throne, how could the Father be
> looking over the calf's head to the Eastern Horizon?"

The Twelve Tribes and the Four Cardinal Compass points do not move. However, from our perspective the Constellations themselves do move. So, every three months another Cardinal Constellaion would come into view on the eastern horizon. Taurus than Leo then Scorpio and than Aquarius. So, I believe that these Cheribim follow the 'Circut' of the Constellaions in their own 'orbit' around the Throne.

> "Are you talking about when Taurus rises on the eastern horizon?"


> "...Aquarius is visible in the east at midnight, it is about July 4 in our days."

Yes, two things here. First off as I stated, 2,000 years ago, more or less, the constellations would be rising approximately one month earlier. And second, I am using SkyWatch 99 which is a magazine showing the constellations every month for the coming year. It is based at about 40 degrees north, but to be perfectly accurate, a person should use the lat and lon of Jerusalem. I havent' tested this with a computer program, so my conclusions might be off. However I don't think they are off enough to disprove my theory. I will explain below. As far as what time to use, I would think that it should be reconned on the first hour after sunset (I think this is what I would do if I was a Shepherd out with the Flock). It appears that the magazine I am using is based around midnight plus or minus an hour.

> when all of Aries is visible in the east at midnight, it is about July 14 in our days,
> how can it happen that in the 2nd comparison, one is in July...the Sept.?"

Not sure on this one. I went back and checked and I still show Aries as completely above the horizon in October our time and Sept 2,000 years ago. For instance, the line up of the Constellation, whenever they appear, is approximately a month apart. You have Aquarius then Pisces and then Aries. So, if Aquarius is July, than Aries should follow two months later in September....

> "Why is it 'within three month?'"

All Twelve of the Constellations are divided up into Four Camps. So, this puts Three Constellations per Camp. So, for instance the Constellation Camp of Leo would include Virgo (on his left) and Cancer (on his right), just as the Twelve tribes were divided. So each Camp would be in front of the Throne for a Three month period. But the 'Captain' of the Camp would only be in front of the Throne for a one month period. This is what I think is hinted at with Ezekials accounts. Because he specifically called one of them a Bull the first time , but the second time, (when it was the first constellation mentioned) he called it a Cherub. So, it is possible that the Camp of Taurus was in 'front' of the Throne, but the Constellation Taurus, was still, below the horizon. This is actually what I see with my magazine. If Cherub means Harald, than this could be an indication that the Bull was up and coming, but that it wasn't directly in front of the Throne. This would mean that Aries was before the Throne (Camp of Taurus) and the Bull was right behind him. This is like the difference between a Waning and a Waxing Moon.

> "...When Leo is all showing in the east at midnight, it is around
> December 11. January here seems reasonable."

Yes, agreed. This one month discrepancy is where the difference between our time and the time 2,000 years ago. Also, if you are correct, and this is off by a month, the Camp of Leo is still in front of the Throne, hence you have a error factor of plus or minus one month. This accounts for the entire Camp of three Constellations (a three month period)....

> "Do you think that since the lion/Judah was mentioned first in both
> Rev. 4:7 and Nu. 2:3, that Iyar 1 (Nu.1:1) has a chance?"

This is definately one that should be looked at. I myself kinda just stumpbled onto this theory, and havent' had a chance to look at all the ramifications. I personally am only looking at the accounts that show the Cherubim around the Throne....

> "What else points to January?"

This is something that I have just started looking at in the last couple of months. Several months ago one of the girls on the Doves mentioned Esther's Feast, and I kinda filed it in the back of my head. Then I reviewed the information on those Comets (Hyakutaki and Hale-Bopp) and of course they had targeted the Constellations of Perseus and Andromeda, on the Feasts of Passover and Purim, respectively (which constellations , by the way, are currently at Zenith in Dec/Jan-straight overhead). So, God seems to be hinting at the Story of Esther. Now, when I went back and read the Story of Esther, the question came to my mind, "When did Esther actually become Queen?" And the answer is the Tenth Month. This is Dec/Jan of our calender. This to me is the biggest argument in its favor....

Now, you were the one, through your books, who directed me to the Song of Songs as our Wedding Hymn. And I still believe that you are correct. I myself had come to the conclusion, through the Harvest Feasts that Pentecost of 98 was going to be the Rapture. So that, along with your teaching, and a couple of others, I was 'convinced' that this would be the day of the Rapture. In fact I was wide awake all night in the Kidron Valley in Israel because of this belief.

But I have recently come to different conclusions....the Songs might not be soley to the Church, but to all of the saved in all the ages. But if it is specifically to the Church, than I think that the first four and one half chapters is refering to our Espousal period, which definetaly occured in Pentecost, and that from 4:7 through 5:4 is a discription of the Time of the Wedding. Several reasons: 1) This is the only passage in the book where the woman is specifically called Spouse. The rest of the time it is 'my love' or sister. But here she is the Spouse. There has to be a reason for this. 2) I believe that the Laodaceans are specifically hinted at in 5:3-6. Compare them with Rev 3:20, and there is a marked similarity. Those that are left behind are like the salt that has lost its savor and is good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men, which seems to occur in 5:7. In 8:5, you have the Restoration of the Theocracy in Secret in Mt. Sinai (George Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom) with Moses and Elijah as the Friends of the BrideGroom. The sealing of the 144,000 are hinted at in verse 6. And by the end of the chapter you have the establishment of the Kingdom.

Now, if that is correct, and the Rapture (Wedding) takes place around 5:1, than the time of year should be hinted at in the immediate passage. When the woman cries for the North Wind (Job 37:1-11), could be hinting at a winter Rapture. Even the South wind, which brings the rain, is a hint of Winter. In verse 4:15 it talks about a well of living waters, which brings you to John 4, which took place in the winter (see my post on the Doves 14th Dec, "Winter (2).) Then there is 5:8, with Hermon, which is called Snow Mountain. The Lions den is also linked to winter time by that same passage in Job.

There are many others, that I have skipped over. But, I have posted all of these studies one the Doves. And I believe that all of my posts in Dec are geared specifically to this. I have one on the Jubilee Cycle which is directly related to this study, and another one called Jewish Stomachs. This shows the proper view of the Jubilee Cycle.

And one other thing that is not contrary to this is that after the espousal, the Groom could come for the Bride anytime in the following year. It is not specifically exactly one year later. So, even though the Espousal was on Pentecost, it is not necessary that the Wedding would also be on Pentecost. That is one thing that the book of Esther has going for it. I believe that as long as their is no Temple or Tabernacle in Israel, than the Seven major Feasts in Israel cannot properly be celebrated. But in the case of Esther (if you use the Jews Chronology of Events) than she became Queen when there was no Temple. And of all the dates in the book (specifically in the twelth month-Purim) the most importatn date is when she became Queen. This occured sometime in the Tenth month.

If you use the Full Moon as the time of her Ascension, something that I think is probable, than the Full Moon of the Tenth Month occurs on Jan 2/3 of this year. Which just happens to be Sat/Sun. The Full Moon I think best represents the Church on its Wedding day, and as both you and I agree, the Rapture will probably occur Saturday night Sunday morning sometime...

My reply

I am still trying to get a clear picture of what you are talking about.

> every three months another Cardinal Constellaion would come into
> view on the eastern horizon.

I take it that you mean the constellation would come into view on the eastern horizon at some predetermined time. My star maps, in "The Star Guide," represent the heavens at 11:00 PM.

I set my Planisphere (Lat. 42 N) at 11 PM on Dec. 21, the winter solstice. All but one star in Leo is in view on my eastern horizon. On March 21, the spring equinox, Scorpius is in the East, but out of view, past my horizon. On June 21, summer solstice, Aquarius is in the East, but only a bit over half is above my horizon. On Sept. 21, the autumnal equinox, Taurus is fully in view on my eastern horizon.

Because Earth rotates once each day, these stationary star patterns seem to rotate around the north star about once each day. Actually, a certain star will rise 4 minutes earlier each day. I say stationary because stars are so far away that they do not seem to move at all in one man's lifetime. They have scarcely moved at all in 5000 years.

> So, I believe that these Cheribim follow the 'Circut' of
> the Constellaions in their own 'orbit' around the Throne.

Since I think Ezekiel's cherubim are the terrestrial planets, I will call these "four beasts," as in Rev. 4:6, not cherubim. Otherwise I'll get muddleheaded. Whatever these beasts are, I understand that you think they follow the circuit of the constellations Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius and Taurus.

> important point that I wanted to stress is that this pictures a Winter
> Rapture, with the Camp of Leo in front of the Throne.

I am trying hard to see what you see. The lion is listed first in Rev. 4:7. At the winter solstice at 11 PM, Leo has risen above the eastern horizon. The only reason I can see that you think Leo is in front of the Throne is because the Tabernacle faced east. That isn't much to go on to picture a winter Rapture, but let's assume that Leo is east of the Throne. Then where is the Throne?

I think the Throne is on Saturn. It is now in view on the border between Pisces, the fish, and Aries, the Ram (which is next to Taurus). That is not bad, considering that the Ram represents Christ, and he has his leg in the loop of the band that ties the two fish together. The left fish is swimming upward (as we will do at the Pre-Trib Rapture). The other fish is swimming toward Aquarius (presumably to get some more water, a symbol of the Holy Spirit).

Saturn is the slowest of the planets. It will still be in Aries at the end of May. Saturn and Venus will be in conjunction a bit after the middle of March. Saturn and Mars will be in conjunction a little before the middle of May.

Here are some of my thoughts. In Rev. 4:6, the four beasts are full of eyes (gemonta [to be full, filled full, loaded] ophthalmou [eyes, i.e., orbs]) BEFORE AND BEHIND. This seems to indicate that they are full orbs, or spheres, instead of constellations, which are each made up of several stars. In verse 7, "the first beast was like (symbolic language) a lion (i.e., to the east), and the second beast like a calf (i.e., to the west), and the third beast had a FACE as a man (i.e., to the south), and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle (i.e., to the north). To me, the planets Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto seem to be represented by these beasts. Verse 8 says, "they were full of eyes within (lit., around and within): and they rest not day and night, saying Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

Psa. 148:1-3 ties in. It says, "PRAISE ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD fom the heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light."

Whatever these beasts (Seraphim, burners) really stand for, they are personified in this miracle play, The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The 24 elders represent all the saints taken from Earth to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. It seems possible that the Seraphim could also represent a group of celestial beings from those four planets. There is so much that we don't know.

> "When did Esther actually become Queen?" And the answer is the Tenth Month. This is
> Dec/Jan of our calender. This to me is the biggest argument in its favor.

Back to a January Rapture. As I try hard to sort out and fully understand all the ramifications of what you are saying, one thing keeps nagging at my mind. Rev. 2:28 says of the overcomers, "I will give him the morning star." It is immediately followed by this: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

These are believers. They already have Christ. He is not talking of himself here. I think he is telling us that at the Rapture, we will be caught up to a morning star. Saturn is an evening star now. It will become a morning star in May as it becomes visible again after rounding the sun.

Pentecost still seems most likely to me. Israel was expoused at Sinai on Pentecost. Ruth and Boaz were espoused around Pentecost. Esther was taken to the king earlier, then married "when the virgins were gathered together the second time" (Esther 2:19). We will be taken to Christ at the Pre-Trib Rapture, but I think the Marriage of the Lamb is not until the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

> the Groom could come for the Bride anytime in the following
> year. It is not specifically exactly one year later.

Esther was purified 12 months (Esth. 2:12). It was customary for the engagement to last 1 year to prove that the bride was a virgin....

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