Pro and Con 247
Uploaded 1-15-99, PM
Incoming Email I was at a christian book shop were a I was told that their is no pre or mid tribulation rapture and that we would all go through the tribulation.
I was given the following which am have typed out word for word could you please comment on it as I would like to believe in a pre tribulation rapture.
The First resurrection (rapture)
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for th witness of Jesus, and neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest ofthe dead lived not again untl the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrestion: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6
In verse4 we see that the people that reign with Christ for a thousand years are they that sat upon the throns and the tribulation martyrs.
Who are these people that sit upon the thrones?
The people that sit upon the thrones are the twelve apostles, the people in Christ that died before the tribulation and the people in Christ that are alive at His coming, as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16
In the following scriptures we see that the twelve disciples will sit upon twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isreal.
28 And Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the thone of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Isreal. Matthew 19:28
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Isreal. Luke 22:28-30
In the following scripture we see that the Apostle Paul told the Corinthians that they would judge the world
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:2
If the people mentioned in the above verse are to judge the world and they are not included with the people mentioned in Revelation 20 verse 4, then when will they judge the world?
In the following scriptures we see that not only the twelve apostles will reign with Christ:
21 To Him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I recieved of my Father. Revelations 2:26-27
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 2 Timothy 2:12
It is not possible for the saints mentiond in 1 Thessalonians to be part of a previous resurrection (rapture) as there are only two resurrections. The two ressurrections spoken of in the bible is the resurrestion of the just and the resurrection of the unjust.
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15
Who takes part in the first resurection?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had recieved his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurection. Revelation 20:4-5
In verse 5 we see that the first resurrection consists of the people mentioned in verse 4.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
we see that the second death only has power over those who are not part of the first resurrection. The people that are not part of the first resurrection are the rest of the dead mentioned in verse 5 which are the people that were not in Christ and died before the thouand year reign of Christ. These people will be resurrected at the resurrection of the unjust together with the people that die during the thousand year reign of Christ. This resurrection takes place at the end of the thousand year period.
If there was a rapture (resurrection) prior to the event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4 then that would be the first resurrection. If this be the case then the people mentioned in Revelation 20:4 would be cast into the lake of fire as they are not part of the first resurrection tus the second death has power over them.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8
The "Rapture" or second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are one and the same event.
"Jesus...shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:10-11) when we will met Him in the air.
Lets look at this event as it is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangle, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and reman shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord"
This event is again described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, "Behold, I saw you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
Clearly the above two verses described exactly he same event. We see that the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven, a trumpt will sound, the dead in Christ shall rise, then those thatare alive (only the saved) will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:52 even goes so far as to say when it will occur: at the last trump.
There are seven angles which sound the seven trumpets: "And the seven angles which had the seven trumpts prepared themselves to sound" Revelation 8:6
Each trumpet brings a disaster or plague. The seventh trumpet is the last one to sound. What happens then? The event already described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 takes place (the rapture).
God's Word further describes what happns when the seventh angle sounds the seventh trumpet.
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (And so shall we ever be with the Lord). Revelation 11:15
When Christ comes upon a white horse to establish His Kingdom on earth, "... the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with thier flesh" Revelation 1:20-21
An angle then "come(s) down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomles pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season" Revelation 20:1
Christ then reigns for a thousand years on earth after which the second resurrection taks place. The people that are part of the first resurrection reign with Him for the thousand year period (Revelation 20:4-6)
Jesus Christ is only coming back to this earth once to "reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet... And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all". I Corinthians 15:25-28
He is not coming in secret for "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail bcause of him. Even so, Amen" Revelation 1:7
Yes, "Jesus... shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:10-11), when those souls who are not destined for the ake of fire, will met Him in the air.
The reason we use such strong words of alarm is to warn people firstly, not to recieve the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4) as this means going to hell, and secondly, not to fear being killed by the antichrist, the beast or his worshippers (everyone that receives the mark of the beast) Why? The fearful are first on the list of people that are cast into the lake of fire eternally.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burnethwith fire and brimstone: which is the second death". Revelation 21:8
Only those over which the second death has no power (those who do not "have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death"), will reign with Jesus Christ, not the fearful, not the unbelieving, etc. (see Revelation 20:6)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Matthew 10:28
Satan is relentless and a master deceiver. He will do absolutely anything to make sure as many people as posible join him in the lake of fire. We must continue to warn people against his attempts, lest their blood be on our hands when we stand before our Lord and King, Jesus Christ one day.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7-8
Marilyn would you be so kind as to post this on your site and comment on this as I was convinced in a pre-trib rapture Regards
My reply I believe that there are two Raptures, the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath. Whoever wrote the above would have us go through God's Wrath. That, rest assured, will not happen. The reason they would have us go through God's Wrath is because they say that the Rapture and the Second Coming are at the same time. God's Wrath PRECEDES the Second Advent by seven Jewish months. During that time, the Jews bury the dead to cleanse the land for the Lord's glorious return. That seven months makes the Rapture at the same time as the Second Coming impossible.
Ezek. 38:18-20 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel (the great mountain burning with fire of Rev. 8:8 impacts the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5); So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts...and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (transl. 'sight' in Eze,. 36:31, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains (plural, there is also the burning star that destroys Babylon, Rev. 8:10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."
Ezek. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (i.e., the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."
The day of God's Wrath is the day of "the trumpet," "A day of darkness" (Joel 2:1,2). That cannot be the day of the Second Advent. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL the saints with thee (they are all in Heaven before this day). And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."
Both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures will have taken place before the Second Advent, the first before the 7-year Tribulation begins, the second before the 7 months of burying the dead begin. The second is on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. It takes place in Rev. 7:14 between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1). Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" That day is still seven months before the Second Advent.
> 5. But the rest ofthe dead lived not again untl the thousand years were finished.
> This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
> first resurrestion: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests
> of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6
The problem here is that they do not understand the first resurrection. There are ranks in the first resurrection. I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
There seem to be four ranks during this last age. In 30 AD, Christ was first. Then, he resurrected the Old Testament saints and took them to Heaven on Resurrection Day. Next will be the Pre-Trib Rapture. After that, in the middle of the Tribulation, the two witnesses will be resurrected and ascend to Heaven. Then, as this age is ending and the Millennium is beginning, the Tribulation saints will be resurrected, and the living saints will be caught up with them.
> The people that sit upon the thrones are the twelve apostles, the
> people in Christ that died before the tribulation and the people in
> Christ that are alive at His coming, as stated in 1 Thessalonians 4:16
There are also more in this group. There are 24 elders and all those of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 4:1 is the Pre-Trib Rapture. This group is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). In 5:10, we find that God "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth." This includes the 24 elders, who are the 12 patriarchs (the Representatives of all the Old Testament saints) and the 12 apostles (the Representatives of all the Church saints). We see from Rev. 20:4 that the Tribulation saints also reign with Christ 1000 years. When the Tribulation saints are caught up, there are still those seven months before the Second Advent.
> 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be
> judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:2
> If the people mentioned in the above verse are to judge the world and
> they are not included with the people mentioned in Revelation 20 verse
> 4, then when will they judge the world?
They are included in Rev. 20:6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrestion: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The ones that are caught up before the Tribulation are "kings and priests" and shall reign over the earth (Rev. 5:10). This is also seen in the Preview of the Rapture in 1:6: "And hath made us kings and priests unto God."
Those of the first resurrection, both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath groups, "all his saints," will execute the judgment written, starting on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the Millennium. Psa. 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory (Heaven): let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have ALL his saints. Praise ye the LORD."
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Rev. 2:26-27). The breaking to shivers is when the asteroids of Rev. 8:8 and 8:10 impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath.
> there are only two resurrections. The two ressurrections spoken of in the bible is the
> resurrestion of the just and the resurrection of the unjust.
If that were true, we would all be out of luck. The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected. The two witnesses are to be resurrected also. That makes two ranks of the resurrection of the just right there.
> Who takes part in the first resurection?
Old Testament saints, Church saints, the two witnesses and the Tribulation saints all are part of the first resurrection.
> If there was a rapture (resurrection) prior to the event spoken of in 1 Thessalonians
> 4 then that would be the first resurrection. If this be the case then the people
> mentioned in Revelation 20:4 would be cast into the lake of fire as they are not
> part of the first resurrection tus the second death has power over them.
Since there was a resurrection of the Old Testament saints in 30 AD, and if there was only one rank of the resurrection of the just, we would have no chance to avoid the Lake of Fire. That cannot be true. Jesus meant for those of the Church Age to have a chance to be saved.
> The "Rapture" or second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are one and the same event.
They are NOT the same event. Christ comes "in the air" at the Rapture (I Thess. 4:17) and sets his feet on the Mt. of Olives at the Second Advent. The mount will then split in two (Zech. 14:4).
> Lets look at this event as it is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17...This event is
> again described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52...Clearly the above two verses described
> exactly he same event. We see that the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven, a trumpt
> will sound, the dead in Christ shall rise, then those thatare alive (only the saved)
> will be caught up in the air to meet the Lord. Corinthians 15:52 even goes so far
> as to say when it will occur: at the last trump.
1 Thess. 4:16-17 describes the First Rapture--at the first trump. 1 Cor. 15:51-52 describes the Second Rapture--at the "last trump." The first is as the days of Noah--no fire falls (Lu. 17:26,27). The second is as the days of Lot--fire falls that same day (Lu. 17:28,29).
These two trumps are as the two silver assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4. They were for the assembly and the moving of the camp. When one sounds, "then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." When both sound, i.e., the "last trump," "ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee," as "all" in I Cor. 15:51, meaning the rest of the assembly. It is first the elders and the group they represent. Then, later, it is "all" the assembly.
> Each trumpet brings a disaster or plague. The seventh trumpet is the last one to sound.
> What happens then? The event already described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and
> 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 takes place (the rapture).
I told you that they would have the saints go through God's Wrath. The seven trumpet judgments are cast on unbelievers, not on believers. At the Raptures, the two silver trumpets are in view, not the seven trumpet judgments. The "trump of God" sounds in I Thess. 4:16. The seven trumpets of judgment are sounded by "seven angels" (Rev. 8:2). We must not confuse the two.
> "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The
> kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he
> shall reign for ever and ever" (And so shall we ever be with the Lord). Revelation 11:15
This is because the Day of God's Wrath on Earth is Christ's Coronation Day in Heaven. It is followed by the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ. Christ is given dominion this day, but does not set his feet on the Earth for another seven months.
> He is not coming in secret for "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see
> him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail bcause
> of him. Even so, Amen" Revelation 1:7
> Yes, "Jesus... shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts
> 1:10-11), when those souls who are not destined for the ake of fire, will met Him
> in the air.
The Rapture is seen by "many," Psa. 40:1-3), but we meet Christ in the air. Every eye will NOT see him. At the Second Advent, every eye WILL see him.
Incoming Email Perhaps we have a semantics problem. I definitely believe we are tried, but I feel that being sifted is different. Jesus told Peter that he was praying for him, alluding to the fact that the prayer was keeping satan from having him to be able to sift him. Would the devil tempt him? Yes. Would Peter go through trials? Yes. But I feel this scripture indicates the true desire of satan, and that is to steal, kill, and destroy, which in my opinion is what sifting would do. But when we have our advocate Jesus praying for us, we have the rest of that scripture which says " but I have come that they might have Life, and Life more abundantly". So no matter how bad the trial or test, we will not be destroyed. Satan can't sift (kill, steal, destroy) us, if he doesn't have us. God bless!
My reply Isa. 30:24 says, "The oxen...shall eat clean provender, which hath been winnowed with the shovel and with the fan." There, it does not mention the sieve.
Unger's Bible Dictionary says the grain was cut with a sickle or pulled up by the roots. Threshing was done by oxen driven over the grain to tread out the kernels or by certain types of machines. One was called a threshing sledge, to be pulled by oxen. Flails were used too. Winnowing was done with a broad shovel or wooden fork. Chaff, straw, and grain were thrown up so the wind could blow away the chaff. Unger said, "Finally the grain was sifted (Amos 9:9)." This passage in Amos says, "I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn (grain) is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."
What happened to Israel was for examples to us upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Since we are called wheat, it sounds to me like we are sifted, but we will not fall.
This is changing the subject, but I started to look up "Winnow" in Unger's. The next line says "Winter." I had underlined this: "In Palestine winter includes part of autumn and the seasons of seedtime and cold, extending from the beginning of September to the beginning of March." If Song of Solomon 2:10-14 applies to the Rapture, then from Sept. 1 to Mar. 1 is excluded. This would knock out the fall feasts and the rest of the time until March as a possible time of the Rapture. To me, this suggests a spring Rapture.
Incoming Email I enjoyed my visit to your Christian home on the net. The Lord is alive and well in this house. Your sharing the Word is a Blessing. I Pray the Lord's Rich Blessings for you as you go through the New Year sharing the wonderful news of The Saving Life Of Christ, and that the Lord leads you always in His way always to walk in His footprints and to all that look upon you that they see not you but Jesus living in you. In His Grace...
Rev. ---- -----
My reply > that the Lord leads you always in His way always to walk in His footprints and to
> all that look upon you that they see not you but Jesus living in you.
Amen to that, and thanks for all your kind remarks.
Pro and Con 248 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: email@example.com
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960
© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee