Pro and Con 259
Uploaded 1-31-99, PM
Could you give me more information on the end of the church age. Are the fullness of gentile times.
My reply I think that when Israel took the rest of Jerusalem, two prophecies were fulfilled, the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-24; Mark 13:28-30 and Luke 21:24's "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
In fulfilling the fig tree parable, Israel grew leaves, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip, Sinai, and West Bank. From that time, one generation shall not pass away till all be fulfilled.
In Luke 21:20-24, there is a difference from the accounts in Mt. 24 and Mark 13. Mt. 24:15 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation." Mark 13:14 has, "when ye shall see the abomination of desolation." This is Mid-Tribulation. It is still future.
However, Luke 21:20 says, "when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies." This desolation came in 70 AD. Verse 24 says they "shall be led away captive into all nations." From 70 AD until June 7, 1967, at least part of Jerusalem was trodden down of the Gentiles.
The fig tree parable in Luke 21 is different too. Mark 13:24-30 says, "But in those days, after that tribulation (i.e., at the of this age), the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken (when the sixth seal breaks, Rev. 6:12f). And then shall they see the Son of man coming (but not yet puttin his feet on Mt. of Olives) in the clouds (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30) with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture as this age ends) to the uttermost part of heaven (where those taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture are). Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch (19-year old modern Israel) is yet tender (no more than 19, as when they came out of Egypt and numbered males from 20 up), and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near (the Six-Day War started June 5; summer started June 21): So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it (the Rapture) is nigh, even at the doors (symbol of the two Raptures, Rev. 3:8). Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." (1967 + 40 = 2007)
Now look at the account in Luke 21:25-32: "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring. Man's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken (future tense). And then shall they see the Son of man coming (the Sign of the Son of Man) in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, THEN LOOK UP, and lift up your heads; for YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (Israel), and all the trees (other nations); When they now shoot forth (push forward), ye see and know of your own selves that summer IS NOW NIGH AT HAND. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God IS NIGH AT HAND. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
When Jesus is close, "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." The Rapture is "at hand" in Rev. 1:3;22:10. I think there is a connection here. Notice the similar wording in this parable. Summer "IS NOW NIGH AT HAND" and "the kingdom of God IS NIGH AT HAND."
When is "NOW"? when the Rapture is "at hand"? Is the Rapture at hand when summer is nigh? as in Song of Solomon 2:10-14?
Look back at when these things BEGIN to come to pass. Surely, we saw signs in the heavens when the comet pieces struck Jupiter, 21 pieces, 7 days, "ENDED JULY 22, the very day BEFORE the Jewish joyous celebration of TU BE-AV," as a lady just said in her email. Our astronomers had no idea such a thing would happen--until it did. Ed and I saw a "red moon" eclipse when Saturn was near it. The sun has had unusual bursts of energy shoot out of it.
What comes next? "upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring."
We already have distress of nations, and the sea represents nations (Rev. 17:15). There is perplexity over the Y2K bug, something that has never happened before. We have had planes roaring over Iraq. There is continual friction between the PLO and Israel. Arafat would like to declare a Palestinian state May 4, 1999. If he does, war could break out, adding to the distress of nations. When the nations "shoot forth" could indicate another war. What was true in the Six-Day War, when summer was nigh, might also be true of another war when "summer is NOW nigh at hand." We'll have to wait and see. Noah got a seven-day warning. Maybe we will too.
It seems that these things have begun to come to pass. If so, it follows that our redemption draws nigh. It just might come at Pentecost, when "summer is NOW nigh at hand."
Immediately after the fig tree parable, Luke 21:33-36 says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY (day of the Rapture) COME UPON YOU UNAWARES. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, the ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Notice the difference between the account in Matthew 24? Luke 21 does NOT say that no man knows the day and hour.
Incoming Email...I've been reading Revelations 2000...You and many others speak of a 7-year Tribulation period being the prophetic 70th week of Daniel. What I have not found in the Bible...is a scripture that clearly demonstrates that the Tribulation period is 7 years in length. Certainly there is a prophetic 7-year period and there is a Tribulation period, but no where to my knowledge is there any scripture that tells us that the two periods are exactly the same.
In my quest to reconcile the Pre, Mid & Post Trib rapture positions I found that if the 7-year period were divided up - first 31/2 years = Trib, and second 31/2 years = Wrath (beginning with opening of 6th seal) - then the three positions were workable since each would point to the middle of the 7-year period. Now I wonder what effect this same reasoning might have on your position? Perhaps a first rapture in May of 2001 and the second in Sept/Oct of 2007?...let me know what you think....
My reply> scripture...that the Tribulation...is 7 years
Dan. 9:27 says that the Roman "prince that shall come," the Beast of Rev. 13:4-10, "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." This is a week of years. This seven years is the Tribulation.
It is split into halves, 1260 days and 1260 days. The first 1260 days is at the beginning of the Tribulation, when the Lord says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days." The last half is in Rev. 12:6: "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."
> second 31/2 years = Wrath (beginning with opening of 6th seal)
God's wrath begins with the opening of the 7th seal, Rev. 8, when the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. It takes place on the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). The second half, called the Great Tribulation, is divided into 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040) and 220 days (1040 + 220 = 1260). I think the Day of God's Wrath is the 2300th day, the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). That day is also the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.
> Now I wonder what effect this same reasoning might have on your position?
No effect. There is a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Tribulation. The book of Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11).
In Rev. 17:12, there "are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet." That is at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Yet, as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, all ten kings are crowned. This reveals the fact that there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation.
The parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9 seems to explain the gap. I thought the Rature would take place last Pentecost (in 5758) because four years are mentioned (i.e., Sacred years 5757/58, 5758/59, 5759/60, 5760/61). However, one of those years is separated from the other three. Maybe three (5758/59, 5759/60, 5760/61) are before the Tribulation, and the extra one (5761/62) represents the first year of the Tribulation, before the second seal is broken and war breaks out....
Incoming Email 1999, the year of the rapture?...The weakest part of calculating future events is that the dates of some historical events are uncertain. For example, when was Christ born? When was His resurrection? We don't have an exact year and date for these events. This makes it hard to calculate the dates of future events, because these historical events are often used as starting points. Nevertheless I tried to calculate the coming events. I will try to explain why I think the year 1999 is the year of the rapture.
...I have to start with the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24-27....concerning the Jews and Jerusalem. This prophecy tells us what will happen to them during a period of 70 weeks. The word "week" has to be explained as "7 years". Now 69 weeks (= 483 years) have been fulfilled. The 69th week ended in my opinion seven days before Christ's resurrection (Lu. 19:41-42). Then the clock stopped and that last and 70th week is still future. The 70th week will start with the signing of an agreement between the Jewish state and in my opinion a Palestinian leader...an agreement concerning the city Jerusalem. The 70th week is divided in 2 periods of 3* years. The first 3* years will be a period of peace. The second period of 3* years is known as the tribulation. In the midst of the 70th week the sacrifice and the oblation shall be ceased and the image of the beast will be standing in Jerusalem (Dan. 9:27, Matt. 24:15, Rev. 13:14-17). At the end of the 70th week Jesus Christ will return on the Mount of Olives (Zach 14:1-5, Matt 24:29-30, Acts 1:9-12), after the Jews shall have called on the name of the Lord (JoŽl 2:32). Then they will accept Jesus Christ as their Lord.
Now many people think that right after the end of the 70th week, the 1000 years (Re. 20:1-3) will start, in which satan will be bound and in which the Lord will reign. I personally believe there is still another period of 33 years before these 1000 years will start....
Matt. 24:32-34: Now learn a parable of the fig tree...The present Jewish state is a dead fig tree. As a nation it still has rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord. But it's branches will become tender and it will put forth leaves, at the end of the 70th week, when they will accept Jesus Christ as their King. At this moment it is still a dead body. But it will become alive after it receives the Spirit, which they will receive after they come to belief in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ezec. 37), at the end of the 70th week. Now, at the end of the 70th week, when Israel comes to belief in the Lord, THEN the summer will be nigh. Then the Kingdom of the Lord will be nigh, but it won't start immediately at the end of the 70th week. It will take another 33 years. So the generation that will see the fig tree come alive, will not pass till all these things be fulfilled. In these 33 years 144.000 men of Israel will preach...and then shall the end come.
These two periods together, the 70th week and the 33 years, are also known as the dispensation of the fulness of times. Which is the 6th dispensation....Eph. 1:9,10...
I already mentioned a period of 1000 years is following the 33 years. This period can easily be found in Re. 20:3. This is the 7th dispensation. In general called the dispensation of the Kingdom...
The last period I want to mention is the period of 2000 years (Hos. 6:1-2, 2 Pet. 3:8, Josh. 3:3-4) which is running from the resurrection of the Lord till the END of the 70th week.
Now all these periods in a table:
4th dispensation 5th dispensation 6th dispensation 7th dispensation
Law..............Grace of God.....Fulness of times..Kingdom
(rest of table came in jumbled)
Now i will give also the dispensations in a table before i will continue with the explanation of why I think 1999 is the year of the rapture...
A. The creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) B. The fall of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:2) C. 7 (Re-)creation days (Genesis 1:3-2:3) A. The creation of man B. The fall of man C. 7 DISPENSATIONS Nr Name dispensation Who Start End 1 Conscience Individuals Fall of man Judgement white throne 2 Human Government Nations Flood of Noah Judgement throne Jerusalem 3 Promise Abram and his people Abram enters Canaan Rapture 4 Law Israel Exodus Resurrection 5 Grace of God Christ and His people Resurrection of Christ Rapture 6 Fulness of times Nations Rapture Judgement throne Jerusalem 7 Kingdom Individuals Satan bound Judgement white throne
Now there is a lot of discussion going on when the rapture will be. Some think it will be before or at the beginning of the 70th week. Other people think it will be in the midst of the 70th week and some think it will be at the end of the 70th week. A lot of mistakes are made by the fact that some Christians don't make a difference between Israel and the Church....Another reason why there is a lot of discussion going on is that the period of 33 years which follows the 70th week of Daniel is almost completely unknown...the Rapture will be before or at last at the beginning of the 70th week.
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David...
Here we find that God first will build the Church, then He will rebuild Israel, and after that Israel will preach the gospel of the Kingdom to all nations.
In revelation 4:1,2 we see John become in the spirit (which in my opinion is an image of the rapture, compare with 1Cor. 15:51-53) before the opening of the first seal, which marks the beginning of the 70th week (revelation 6:1,2).
...The last possible date for the rapture is the beginning of the 70th week. This means that 2000-7 = 1993 years of 360 days = 717480 days after the resurrection of the Lord the rapture will take place. Now let's calculate back these days from january 1, 1999. This gives us 12 august 34 A.D. (Julian date). We now can assume that the resurrection did not take place in any earlier year, otherwise the rapture would have taken place yet....
Now Christ's resurrection took place during the feast of Passover, this is about march/april. So we can assume now that the year 34 A.D. is not the year of the resurrection, otherwise the rapture should have taken place.
Pilate was governor till 36 A.D. and Caiaphas was high priest till 36 A.D. Josephus tells us that Caiaphas was replaced by Vitellius during the feast of Passover. Now Christ died during Passover when Caiaphas was High Priest. So it's very unlikely that the resurrection took place in 36 A.D. This leaves us 35 A.D. for the year of the resurrection of the Lord.
1993 years of 360 days = 717480 days
717480 days / 365,2422 = 1964,39 solar years
March/April 35 A.D. + 1964 full years = March/April 1999
0,39 x 12 months = 4 or 5 months
March/April + 5 months gives us about august-september 1999 as the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel (9 november 1999 to be exactly), and therefor the last possible date for the rapture.
Can...we check this?...The resurrection took place on 17 nisan...this was the beginning of the 5th dispensation, the dispensation of the Grace of God. I believe the 4th dispensation, the dispensation of the law, also started on the 17th of nisan. I believe Israel went through the Red Sea on this day. At this time God changed the numbers of the month's....Now the Exodus took place exactly 430 years after Abraham entered Canaan. This was the start of the 3rd dispensation, the dispensation of the promise. So this was also the 17th of the month nisan. The 2nd dispensation started at the time of the flood. The Ark stranded on the mountains of Ararat on the 17th of the 7th month, this was the 17th of nisan (which became later the 1st month). I believe the 1st dispensation which started with the fall of Adam and Eve has also been on the 17th of nisan.
There are still 2 dispensation to come. The 6th dispensation, also known as the dispensation of the fulness of times and the 7th dispensation, also known as the dispensation of the Kingdom. Ephese 1:9,10...
In my opinion the 6th dispensation will start with the rapture...on the 17th of nisan. Now in 1999 the 17th of nisan is 3 april on our calendar. This is about a half year before the start of the 70th week of Daniel.
Now a check:
40 years from 1999 gives us 2039 as the year for the start of the 7th dispensation, the dispensation of the Kingdom....
If we want to find out the last day of the 70th week of Daniel, we have to count back 33 years of 360 days = 11.880 days - 1 day (the day we calculate from is included) = 11879 days. Calculating back 11879 days from 11 april 2039 gives us 02 october 2006 as the end of the 70th week. 2 october 2006 = the hebrew date 10 tishri 5767, which is the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). On this day the Lord will return on the Mount of Olives (Zec. 14:1-4, Acts 1:9-12)....
I hope 3 april 1999 is the date of the rapture. If it isn't then we have to wait just a little longer. But if you look at present world events I think there is just one conclusion we can make and that is that His coming is close. So just let us wait and see. Whenever the rapture might be, I hope to see you there.
My reply > dates of some historical events are uncertain. For example, when was Christ born?
> When was His resurrection? We don't have an exact year and date for these events.
I think we do, Tishri 1 in BC 5 for his birth and Nisan 16 in 30 AD for his resurrection. All the criteria fit those years. The temple was begun in BC 20/19. It was 46 years in building in 27 AD, the year of the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. It was the 15th year of Tiberius when Jesus was baptized near Tishri 1 in 26 AD. Tiberius was Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD, and became Sole-Rex in 14 AD. Jesus was about 30 when he was baptized. Therefore he was born on Tishri 1 in 5 BC. There were four Passovers of his ministry. The fourth was Nisan 14, 30 AD. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was Nisan 15. The Feast of Firstfruits, the day of his resurrection, was Nisan 16 in 30 AD.
> The 70th week will start with the signing of an agreement between the
> Jewish state and in my opinion a Palestinian leader.
I think it will be a confirmation of the Oslo Accords, etc., by the Tribulation Pope (Rev. 13:4,8) and an Israeli leader (Rev. 13:11).
The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993 and ratified in Israel three days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. There are seven good years and seven bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt. If you add 14 years to Sept. 13, 1993, you get Sept. 13, 2007. If you add 14 years to Tishri 1, 5754, you get Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. I believe that the Lord arranged this to show us the first day of the Millennium.
Just as Joseph took up the grain in the seven good years, I believe we will be taken up in the seven good years--1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000. The seven bad years will be 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007. I believe that the Rapture will be on Pentecost in 1999, that the Seventieth Week of Daniel/Tribulation will begin on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001, and that the Millennium will begin on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.
> At the end of the 70th week Jesus Christ will return on the Mount of Olives
According to Ezek. 29:17,21 and Hos. 6:3, he will return on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year. I think this is before the end of the 2520 days on Nisan 16, 5768.
> 40 years from rapture till millennium
I believe it is 40 years from when Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights) in the Six-Day War of 1967.
> at the end of the 70th week, when Israel comes to belief in the Lord,
> THEN the summer will be nigh
Summer was nigh when the Six-Day War started on June 5.
> Then the Kingdom of the Lord will be nigh, but it won't start
> immediately at the end of the 70th week. It will take another 33 years.
I think the millennial Day of the Lord will begin on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. This is Coronation Day for the Lord Jesus Christ. It is also the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgement Seat of Christ, and the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 11:15-18).
> 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one
> all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Mark 13:27 shows that he gathers his elect from one end of the Earth to the other and from one end of Heaven to the other on the day the Sign of the Son of Man is seen. I think that is "in the dispensation of the fulness of times."
> the period of 2000 years (Hos. 6:1-2, 2 Pet. 3:8, Josh. 3:3-4) which
> is running from the resurrection of the Lord till the END of the 70th week
2007 AD - 30 AD = 1977 years. Scripture doesn't say that there are 2000 years from the Resurrection till the end of the 70th week.
> 4th dispensation 5th dispensation 6th dispensation 7th dispensation
> Law Grace of God Fulness of times Kingdom
To me, here are the Dispensations:
1. Innocence 40 years
2. Conscience 1616 years
3. Human Government 427 years
4. Promise 430 years
5. Law 1559 years
6. Grace 1977 years
7. Kingdom 1000 years
Total 7049 solar years.
Adam was in the Garden of Eden 40 years before he was cast out and man began to be tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil.
There seem to be 9 extra years added during which both the Rapture and the Tribulation take place. The Tribulation is judgment. Eccl. 8:5 says, "A wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." The number 9 means rebellion. After the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will stop restraining the growth of evil. Those will truly be days of rebellion. The Rapture will also be a time of judgment, for the Laodiceans will be spewed out of his mouth. The foolish virgins will be left behind. This is why Jesus is seen with a twoedged sword in his mouth in the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1. It seems that the Rapture will kick off a time of judgment. During the time between the Rapture and the Tribulation, the Lord will, I think, be watching Israel to see if she brings forth fruit (Lu. 13:6-9).
The year 2007 - 9 = 1998, when I thought the Rapture would take place in the 6000th year since Adam left Eden. I didn't take into consideration that Queen Esther was purified 12 months before she was taken to the king, or that the bridegroom tarried in the parable of the ten virgins. It looks like the Bridegroom is tarrying 12 months to be sure the Bride is a virgin, as the customary engagement period was 12 months. I am hoping for this next Pentecost.
> The resurrection took place on 17 nisan
It took place on the Feast of Firstfruits, which was Nisan 16. Josephus makes it clear. He said, "...on the fourteenth day...the Passover...The feast of unleavened bread...falls on the fifteenth day of the month...on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them" (Antiq. X.5).
> the rapture and in my opinion this will be on the 17th of nisan. Now
> in 1999 the 17th of nisan is 3 april on our calendar
If the Song of Solomon 2:10-14 applies to the Rapture, the grapes must at least be in blossom. April 3 seems a bit early. Grapes begin to ripen in Sivan. Also, the time of the latter rain is the month of Nisan. In the Song, it says that the rain is over and gone. To me, Pentecost seems to fill the bill.
> 10 tishri 5767, which is the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). On this day
> the Lord will return on the Mount of Olives (Zec. 14:1-4, Acts 1:9-12).
Neither of these scriptures tell us that the Second Advent is on Yom Kippur. Ezek. 29:17,21 tells us it is on Nisan 1. Hos. 6:3 agrees. There it is as the latter rain, which begins on Nisan 1 (Joel 2:23). The Lord promised in De. 11:14, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain (First Advent on Tishri 1) and the latter rain (Second Advent on Nisan 1)." This is why Nisan 1 is the beginning of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year...
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