Pro and Con 26

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

So then, you don't believe in Daniel's seventieth week of prophecy--that there is a seven year Tribulation?

...your reference to the 2300 days is inaccurate--for this is as year--time--prophecy. It deals with the cleansing of the rebuilt Jewish (Tribulational) Santuary from teh Abomination that makes Desolate--(Dan. 8:13, 17)--not any Rapture!

Now I've always started the vision when the four remaining generals Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Selucius and Cassander) of the twelve stood up (for the kingdom) in place of Alexander (Dan. 8:8, 22)---which occurred at the Battle of Ipsus at 301 B.C.--from 2300--leaving the year 1999 A.D.--then shall the future rebuilt Jewish Temple be cleansed (from Antichrist) by the brightness of Christ's traditional Second Coming (the real Hanukkah). The problem with this is the difference between the two calendars--the Gregorian and the Julian--4 to 6 years? 2005? Subtracting a seven year tribulation which would make the Tribualtion begin in 1998?

KEEP in mind--on my part--this is mere speculation, not a teaching! Nevertheless, we're getting closer!

My reply

The phophecy in Dan. 9 began in 454 B.C. in the first year of Cyrus (See Martin Anstey's "Romance of Bible Chronology"). Isaiah 45:28 says, "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." The 483 years brought us to 29 A.D., after which the Messiah was killed.

That doesn't matter here because God's clock stopped for Israel when the Church was born on Pentecost in 30 A.D. It will restart on Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks) in 2001, when the peace covenant is confirmed.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

Christians will not be saved before the Day of the Lord begins, for the Day of the Lord is the Day of our Redemption (Eph. 4:30). The Day that we are to hasten (Greek: earnestly expect) in 2 Pet. 3:21. The Day that as we see approaching, we are to provoke one another to love and good works, and even more so as it approaches (Heb. 10:25).

Since we will be raptured long before the Day of the Lord begins (according to you), We don't have to provoke one another to love and good works? And even more so the closer The Day gets? Moreover, since we're saved long before the Day of the Lord, We don't have to "earnestly expect" That Day? Being the Day of our Redemption?

My reply

If we are part of the Bride of Christ, the Day of our Redemption is the first Day of Christ, the Pre-Trib Rapture, not the Day of the Lord, the Millennium.

If we are Laodiceans and are left behind the first time, the Day of our Redemption will be the second Day of Christ, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which is the first literal day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

If I am right about the timing, then we only have until Pentecost, 1998, to get ready for the first Rapture. Yes, we had better provoke one another to love and good works. Yes, we should earnestly expect that day. We want to be part of the Bride of Christ, the ones who will be caught up in the first Rapture. The Bride is the "FIRST of the firstfruits" to be brought into the house of the Lord on Pentecost (Ex. 23:16,19). The rest of the firstfruits, the remainder of the Body of Christ, will be caught up on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium.

Amos 5:18 says, "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord is the Day of Vengeance, the day of the terror of terrors, the day of fire, brimstone and thick darkness, the day of the worldwide earthquake, the day the cities of the nations will fall. Civilization as we know it will be destroyed. After that, there will be so few men that a child could write the number. Those raptured that day will be taken up as out of the fiery furnace. Their clothing will not even smell of smoke.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

Where in Scripture does it specifically state that the Day of the Lord is millennial in length? Just curious!

My reply

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" (II Peter 3:8). There are seven 1,000-year days during which man is tested being both mortal and knowing good and evil. The millennial Day of the Lord is the seventh of these great days.

Christ is to be King of kings and Lord of lords during the millennial Day of the Lord. The Body of Christ "shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6). This the "sabbatismos" (Heb. 4:9).

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

The Tribulation is not the Great Tribulation, or the latter half of the seven year Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-21; Dan. 9:27). Thus, Philadelphia's promise is that she will not suffer the hour of test--that specific time--which comes upon the whole world in the Great Tribulation. Coveresly, once the Tribulation begins it will begin subtly--unawares by the world--with little notice--like the days of Noah--like normal times.

My reply

The Tribulation is the whole seven years. The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation.

The seven years will begin with the confirmation of the seven-year peace treaty and the arrival of MOSES AND ELIJAH.

Oh, wow! there are those caps again. I did not mean to capitalize that, it just happened. Neither the shift key or caps lock key is down.

Moses and Elijah will have powers to bring drought and plagues, even "fire proceedeth out of thier mouth" and they "have power over waters to turn them to blood." They will get attention, all right.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

I said:
> > Christ is the bright and Morning Star--or the first light after the night

You said:
> A morning star is any planet seen from midnight until dawn. After the
> night, it cannot be seen because the sunlight obscures it.

Do you have a reference for this belief?

My reply

In Robin Kerrod's Star Guide, p. 134,5, it tells about two, Mercury and Venus: "When either of these planets lies east of the Sun, they are visible in the west after sunset. When they lie west of the Sun, they are visible in the east *BEFORE SUNRISE*. In other words, they are either evening or morning stars." This is true of the other planets also. I have charts that show when each of the planets are morning stars or evening stars.

If you go to the library, look in Sky and Telescope magazine. Every month, usually somewhere near page 63, you will find a double-page chart of the sky for that month. The ecliptic is shown against the backdrop of stars. Along its band, the planets are plotted. One side of the diagram is the evening sky. The other side is the morning sky. When a planet is plotted in the morning sky, it is a called a morning star.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> The Day of Christ is also called the Day of the Son of Man. Luke 17:22
> says, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days
> (there are two of them) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it." The
> two days of the Son of Man are the two Raptures.

This is an assumption--there is no biblical evidence to substantiate this.

My reply

The Day of Christ is the day of the Rapture. You can tell by these verses:
I Cor. 1:8: "Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
I Cor. 5:5: "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
II Cor. 1:14: "As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Phil. 1:6; "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."
Phil. 2:16: "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain."

The Day of Christ is the day of the Rapture, and the Rapture is as the days of Noah, which is then equal to the Day of Christ. Remember your algebra. If two things equal the same thing, the two things are equal. The Day of Christ is the Rapture, and the days of Noah refer to the Rapture.

Luke 17:26-28 says, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all."

Mt. 24:39-41 adds, "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

The other Day of Christ is as the days of Lot. "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Luke 17:29).

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

I wrote:
> > the Day of Christ must first appear before the Lord returns. Paul wrote,
> > "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in
> > you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philp. 1:6).

You Wrote:
> This is correct. The Raptures will both take place before the Second Advent.

But you also refuted that the Day of Christ--the Day of the Lord--first appears!

My reply

No, I don't confuse the Day of Christ with the Day of the Lord. The Day of Christ is the Rapture, and the Day of the Lord is the Millennium.

The first Day of Christ is the first Rapture, when the Bride of Christ is caught up. The second Day of Christ is the second Rapture, when the rest of the Body of Christ is caught up. The Second Advent of Christ is seven months after the second Rapture. "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD" (Eze. 39:12,13).

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> I Cor. 1:8: ":Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be
> blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.":
> I Cor. 5:5: ":To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the
> flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.":
> II Cor. 1:14: ":As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your
> rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus."
> Phil. 1:6; ":Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun
> a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.":
> Phil. 2:16: ":Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the
> day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.":

I notice that you put 1 Thess. 4:15-17, the Rapture passage, at the first day of Christ. The problem with that is that a bridegroom doesn't make a shout; doesn't make the Trump of God; doesn't descend from Heaven with Michael's (Israel's chief defender) at his coming--for all of these are indicative of the Second Advent--a BATTLE--not an earlier Rapture or a bridegroom coming. Thus, this Rapture passage in question is really a Second Advent passage wherein the dead rise first--or the first resurrection take place at the Last Day (John 6:40)! Again--at the Last Day at the Second Advent.

Now consider your above Scriptures, concerning, as you put it, the first day of Christ. Notice that all in all, Paul is rejoicing in That Day for the fruit of his work. This can only take place after the resurrection of these New Testament saints, which will not take place until the Second Coming (true, their spirits are already in Heaven--but not their bodies). Thus, it remains, that the Day of the Lord is the Day of the Lord--it is the Day of Jesus Christ--(Philip. 1:6)--the Day of God (2 Pet. 3:12)--that we are to earnestly expect. It is not divided into two different days of Christ--then the Day of God (2 Pet 3:12), of which, again, we as Christians--are to earnestly expect. Now why would we earnestly expect just the wrath of God; that being, if you're interpretation is true of the Day of God? Well, the answer is that the Day of God--(2 Pet. 3:12)--the Day of the Lord--the Day of Jesus Christ--is also the Day of our Redemption--wherein--not only are the living end-time saints saved alive--Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.":--Phil. 1:6; ":Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.":--but also the fruition of the Kingdom will take place during the dawn of That Day--at the Second Advent--at the resurrection:

I Cor. 5:5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (apparently all Christian spirits who are dead in Christ don't go to Heaven--for this Corinthian is yet to be saved).
II Cor. 1:14: As also you have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus (the resurrected Corinthians [their bodies] at the Last Day).
Phil. 2:16: Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. (the resurrected Philippians at the Last Day)

My reply

> I notice that you put 1 Thess. 4:15-17, the Rapture passage, at the first day
> of Christ. The problem with that is that a bridegroom doesn't make a shout;
> doesn't make the Trump of God; doesn't descend from Heaven with Michael's
> (Israel's chief defender) at his coming--for all of these are indicative of
> the Second Advent--a BATTLE--not an earlier Rapture or a bridegroom coming.
> Thus, this Rapture passage in question is really a Second Advent passage
> wherein the dead rise first--or the first resurrection take place at the Last
> Day (John 6:40)! Again--at the Last Day at the Second Advent.

Scripture does not say that ":a bridegroom doesn't make a shout; doesn't make the Trump of God; doesn't descend from Heaven with Michael's (Israel's chief defender) at his coming.": You are saying that from your own understanding.

The book of Revelation is written as if the Rapture is ":at hand.": It is at hand in both 1:3 and 20:10. As Jesus signs off, he says that he comes quickly, and he comes quickly at the Rapture. In the Preview of the Rapture in the first chapter, Jesus speaks with ":a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first (YHVH, Lord of the Old Testament) and the last (Jesus Christ, Lord of the New Testament).": Jesus is the Bridegroom, and here he speaks as a trumpet.

In the actual Rapture in 4:1, ":the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,": and John was caught up to Heaven. The voice of Jesus ":was as it were of a trumpet,": and Jesus is the Bridegroom.

Israel was to make ":two trumpets of silver": for ":the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.": ":And if thy blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee": (Nu. 10:2-4). These princes are 12 of the 24 elders seen in heaven after the voice like a trumpet calls them up to heaven. The other 12 elders are the 12 apostles.

These two trumpets represent the two Raptures. The first trumpet sounds in I Thess. 4:16. The last trump sounds in I Cor. 15:52.

The first trumpet of the entire Bible was sounded by YHVH on Pentecost at Sinai as a type of the first Rapture on Pentecost. At Sinai, Israel was betrothed to YHVH. At the first Rapture the 5 wise virgins of the Church will be betrothed to YHVH/Yeshua, Jesus Christ.

You mention Michael as coming at the Second Advent. He is probably the archangel mentioned at Rapture I (I Thess. 4:16). He is mentioned as warring with Satan in the middle of the Tribulation (Rev. 12:7). He is mentioned at the second Rapture (Dan. 12:1), but he is not mentioned at the Second Advent, which follows the second Rapture by seven Jewish months (Ezek 38:12,13). Revelation 12:7 is the last time he is mentioned in the Bible. Yet Jesus returns in Rev. 19:11f.

In Job 5:24, we are promised that we ":shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin.": If, as some think, we were to be caught up to meet Christ in the air as he returns, we would immediately come back to Earth, not visit Heaven. This scenario will not work. Psalm 149 5 says, ":Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.": We do have some time in Heaven before the Second Advent. We are there for Christ's coronation. We are there for the Marriage of the Lamb. We are there for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. All these take place before the Second Advent.

The remainder, I have already covered before. I'll not repeat myself. You either believe me or you don't. That responsibility lies on your own shoulders. I have told you the truth. The Day of Christ refers to the Rapture and the Day of the Lord to the Millennium. The Second Advent is seven Jewish months after the Millennium begins.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> Scripture does not say that "a bridegroom doesn't make a shout; doesn't
> make the Trump of God; doesn't descend from Heaven with Michael's
> (Israel's chief defender) at his coming" You are saying that from your
> own understanding.

Try the Jewish Mishnah; this book of Jewish oral traditons will show you how a Jewish Bridegroom comes. Moreover, the voice of the archangel--the trump of God--the shout--are all clearly a battle cry when these things are weighed in light of the Old Testament. Now there won't be a battle until the Second Coming--after the Rapture(s)!

My reply

We can only go by Scripture. Jesus said the Parisees and scribes were "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered" (Mk 7:13).

The word "archangel" does not appear in the Old Testament. Michael appears in Daniel 12:1-3, where it has to do with the second Rapture. "And at that time (when the False Prophet 'shall come to his end,' Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble (Israel will be attacked and the asteroid will impact Earth), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered. every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

> Now there won't be a battle until the Second
> Coming--after the Rapture(s)!

This battle, when Gog attacks Israel is seven months BEFORE the Second Coming. Ezek. 38:18f says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (translated 'sight' in Eze. 36:31, not the Second Advent, but the Sign of the Son of Man), and the mountains (the two main pieces of a binary asteroid) shall be thrown down...And I will plead against him with...great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and...I will be known in the EYES of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD." This takes place on Tishri 1, 5768.

"And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD" (Eze. 39:12,13). The day he will be glorified is not the day of thick darkness when the asteroid hits, but seven months later at the Second Advent. This takes place on Nisan 1, 5768, the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year.

Christ comes as King of kings and Lord of lords, as King on the first of the Regnal Year and as Lord on the first of the Sacred year.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> The book of Revelation is written as if the Rapture is "at hand." It is
> at hand in both 1:3 and 20:10. As Jesus signs off, he says that he comes
> quickly, and he comes quickly at the Rapture. In the Preview of the
> Rapture in the first chapter, Jesus speaks with "a great voice, as of a
> trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first (YHVH, Lord of the Old
> Testament) and the last (Jesus Christ, Lord of the New Testament)." Jesus
> is the Bridegroom, and here he speaks as a trumpet.

But first the Lord's Day--Christ walks amongst the churches on the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10; 2:1), and this, in judgment of the Church. Moreover, when He speaks as a trump--this is not the last trump!

My reply

Right. This is the first trump.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> In the actual Rapture in 4:1, "the first voice which I heard was as it
> were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither," and John
> was caught up to Heaven. The voice of Jesus "was as it were of a
> trumpet," and Jesus is the Bridegroom.

What is more important, the Throne Room setting (time-line), which is immediately before the opening of the seven seals (Rev. 5:1), opens with the following statement: "After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in Heaven, and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me. . . . and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." (Rev. 4:1-2). Here, the first voice that John heard is the same voice that he heard earlier in Revelation 1:10 (first voice), which is where John commented that "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. . . ." So then, when John heard the second voice, which was like the first voice, it had to be within his Lord's Day experience (in the Spirit). Mandating, that, his Lord's Day experience had already begun (Rev. 1:10) before the opening the seven seals.

My reply

The "Lord's day" of Rev. 1:10 is Sunday, not the millennial Day of the Lord. You are confusing the two.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> You mention Michael as coming at the Second Advent. He is probably the
> archangel mentioned at Rapture I (I Thess. 4:16). He is mentioned as
> warring with Satan in the middle of the Tribulation (Rev. 12:7). He is
> mentioned at the second Rapture (Dan. 12:1), but he is not mentioned at
> the Second Advent, which follows the second Rapture by seven Jewish
> months (Ezek 38:12,13). Revelation 12:7 is the last time he is mentioned
> in the Bible. Yet Jesus returns in Rev. 19:11f.

It is impossible for 1 Thess. 4:15-17 to be anything other than a Second Advent passage. Notice that Paul speaks of those who are "alive and remain" before he tags them as such because the dead rise first (1 Thess. 4:15). In other words, if there weren't any dead to rise in this passage--these saints would still be those who are "alive and remain" because these are the last remaining saints after the two raptures.

My reply

I Thess. 4:15-17 is the first trumpet, the first Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Rapture of the Bride of Christ. They will attend the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven before the Second Advent, seven months before it.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> We are there for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage
> Supper of the Lamb.

The Judgemnt Seat of Christ is not before the Second Coming; it is not before Christ takes His throne in Israel at the Second Advent. Prophecy states that Christ will sit until all enemies are His footstool--then, He will arise in judgment of the Church on the Lord's Day--and He will not sit again until the Second Advent.

My reply

Christ is crowned in Heaven on Tishri 1, 5768. The Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ also take place in Heaven that day.

"O Lord God Almighty, which art (Tishri 1), and wast, and art to come (next Nisan 1); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (he's crowned this day). And the nations were angry, and thy wrath (the asteroid impacts) is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward (at the Judgment Seat of Christ) unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great: and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth (with the asteroid impacts)" (Rev. 11:17,18).

Seven months later on Nisan 1, Christ will arrive in Israel. After that is the Judgment of the Nations. This judgment takes place on Earth.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> We can only go by Scripture. Jesus said the Parisees and scribes were "Making the word of
> God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered" (Mk 7:13).

Show me then in the Scripture where a bridegroom comes making a shout--making trumpet sounds.

My reply

Christ is the bridegroom (Mt. 9:15). He comes at the first trump to get his Bride, the wise virgins. ("And at midnight there was a cry made" Mt. 25:6)

Type: Numbers 10:2-4 says, "Make thee two trumpets...use them for the calling of the assembly...And when they shall blow with them (both, i.e., the last trump), all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation (the second Rapture, as in I Cor. 15:51,52). And if they blow but with one trumpet (i.e., the first trump, the first Rapture, as in I Thess. 4:13-18), then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." These princes are 12 of the elders seen in Heaven after the first Rapture. The other 12 are the apostles (Rev.5:4).

The first trump is before the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10), before the Lord says, "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (i.e., the Tribulation is after the first Rapture) (Rev. 4:1).

At this time, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (as sounded for the first time at Sinai): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we ('brethren,' I Thess. 4:1) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:16-18).

If we had to go through the Tribulation, which will be the worst seven years since Adam was put on Earth, we would not be comforted. Since we are going to go through the open door before the Tribulation, these words comfort us.

At Sinai, the trumpet of God sounded long. "And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up" (Ex. 19:19,20). This is when Israel was espoused to the Lord. Jeremiah 2:2 says, "Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness."

The same type of thing will happen when the Bride of Christ is chosen. The "trump of God" will sound and YHVH/Jesus Christ will shout "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1) on Pentecost.

When Christ comes at the Pre-Trib Rapture, out of his mouth goes "a sharp twoedged sword" (Rev. 1:16) to cut off the foolish virgins, the lukewarm Laodiceans. Luke 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." This portion with the unbelievers is during the Tribulation.

Christ will choose a Bride that loves him dearly, not one that is merely lukewarm.

Christ will call his Bride himself. He will send the angels to gather the Tribulation saints. On the Feast of Trumpets, the 2,300th day of the Shortened Tribulation, the foolish virgins/Laodiceans will be gathered, "at the last trump" (I Cor. 15:53). These virgins are the remainder of the Body of Christ. "And then (the day the sun is darkened) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Tribulation saints, caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven (the Bride, who was previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture)" (Mark 13:27).

Why are all his saints called to the heavenly assembly that day? Because it is his Coronation day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. All this takes place in Heaven on this Feast of Trumpets.

On Earth, Gog and his united nations army have attacked Israel. Chances are good that the saints in Heaven are called to the witness stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ to say whether they think the Lord should save Israel. They plead for Israel, and the asteroid hits in the Mediterranean Sea killing all but 1/6th of the invading army. This is the day of thick darkness, the day of the terror of terrors, the day the face of Earth is twisted, the day the Earth is turned upside down, the day unbelievers left on Earth get their just rewards at the same time the believers in Heaven get their rewards.

Christ does not return to Earth for seven months after that day. Armageddon does not begin until Christ is on Earth and takes dominion away from Satan, god of this Earth, at the Judgment of the Nations. Armageddon is Satan's last ditch stand. He is taken prisioner and chained for 1000 years.

I hope this helps you understand that I Thess. 4:13-18 describes when the Bridegroom comes for the wise virgins/Philadelphians before the Tribulation takes place. The trumpet then is not a battle cry. It is as at Sinai.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

Now there won't be a battle until the Second Coming--after the Rapture(s)!

> This battle, when Gog attacks Israel is seven months BEFORE the Second Coming. Ezek. 38:18f
> says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come aginast the land
> of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and
> in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in
> the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the
> beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that
> are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (translated 'sight' in
> Eze. 36:31, not the Second Advent, but the Sign of the Son of Man)

To my estimation God's presence is His coming; also, the sign of the Son of man immediately proceeds the Second Advent (Matt. 24:29-30). Also, in Joel 2 it is all the saints that make-up the Army of God at the Second Advent--the morning or dawning of That Day (1 Pet. 1:19; Joel 2:2). Then, if one of us is run through with a sword, it will not hurt us--for the Army of the Lord at that time is supernatural (Joel 2:8).

My reply

The rest of the passage in Ezekiel 38 ends with "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself: and I will be known in the EYES of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD." This is the Sign of the Son of Man. He is only seen on this day. This is not the day his feet stand on the Mt. of Olives. That comes seven months later, after Israel buries the dead to cleanse the land (Ezek 39:12,13).

The day the Sign of the Son of Man is seen, the asteroid hits Earth, "the day of the LORD cometh" (Joel 2:1). "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come" (Joel 1:15).

This is the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:2). The Second Advent is not on a dark day. Zechariah 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

In Matthew 26:36-46, Jesus told the apostles, "watch with me." He went away to pray, "and he cometh unto the diciples." Then "He went away again the second time, and prayed." And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then cometh he to his disciples." This is a type of his coming more than once.

At the time of the end, the first time he comes, Jesus comes in person to choose and take his Bride to his father's house at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Second time, he is occupied in Heaven with the Coronation Ceremony, the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ. Therefore, he sends his angels to gather his saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. He also shows people on Earth the Sign of the Son of Man that same day. Then seven months later, he returns to the Mt. of Olives, when it splits. Armageddon is after that Second Advent.

We must rightly divide the word of truth. The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord is on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1. That is the day of destruction on Earth. Joel 2:1 says, "BLOW ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm." The day of the Second Advent is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21). For there to be seven Jewish months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1, it must be a Jewish leap year, and 5768 is a leap year. I pray that you will understand.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> The "Lord's day" of Rev. 1:10 is Sunday, not the millennial Day of the
> Lord. You are confusing the two.

So then, this Sunday Christ will walk amongst the churches in judgment? Hardly!!!

Christ is prophesied to sit UNTIL all enemies are His footstool--upon arising--upon standing--He will judge the Church (James 5:9)--yes, judgment begins with us (1 Pet. 4:17; Rev. 3:10, 20). Thus, Christ will walk amongst the churches (Rev. 2:1) on the Lord' s Day (Rev. 1:10), the Day of Judgment--not before--(which is not a literal Sunday).

My reply

Yes, this Sunday, Christ will judge the churches. This is not the Judgment Seat of Christ, when all Heaven and Earth will keep silence while the judge is seated. This is the day he stands (Rev. 1:13-18) and decides who is to be his Bride and who is not, who are overcomers and who are not, who are to be taken to Heaven and who are not to be taken up until the 2300th day of the Tribulation.

John played it out in the Preview. he said, "I John...was in the isle that is called Patmos (which means 'mortal,' i.e., he was mortal)." Then suddenly he finds himself in Heaven. He sees the Lord standing with the churches all around him and the star performers still in his right hand, having just been snatched up. The Lord has the symbolic "sharp twoedged sword" coming out of his mouth to cut off the Laodiceans and foolish virgins. John explains what happened. In Rev. 1:10,11, he says, "I was (literally, became, as in the margin) in the Spirit on the Lord's day (Sunday), and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last."

This is very different from the events on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Of that day, Joel 2:2.1 says, "BLOW ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm (the alarm is a different trumpet sound than at the Raptures) in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, and the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong: there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it" This is Gog's army attacking Israel. Now all the united nations' armies are gathered as Christ's footstool. Now they can be decimated by the asteroid hitting the Mediterranean Sea.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> I Thess. 4:15-17 is the first trumpet, the first Rapture, the Pre-Trib Rapture, the Rapture
> of the Bride of Christ. They will attend the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven before the Second
> Advent, seven months before it.

No, this is a a cry to do battle against the enemies of Israel--when those who are "alive and remian"--(1 Thess. 4:15) who will be few and are so before the dead are caught-up--thus, these will be caught-up at the resurrection of the Last Day (John 6:40) at the Second Advent.

My reply

It seems that you think the saints are caught up in the air and then immediately return with Christ to Earth.

Rev. 19:14 shows that this is not so. These saints were in Heaven. It says, "And the armies WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> Christ is crowned in Heaven on Tishri 1, 5768. The Marriage of the Lamb
> and the Judgment Seat of Christ also take place in Heaven that day.

After Christ arises in judgment of the Church (James 5:9)--show me where He again sits down before the Second Advent and I'll believe you.

My reply

Christ is standing when he chooses his Bride (Rev. 1:13-18) at the first Rapture. Later, after his coronation, he is the judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. All Heaven and Earth is silent while the judge is being seated. Rev. 8:1 says, "AND when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." Habbakkuk 2:20 says, "But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him." Did you ever see a judge stand to hear testimony and pass judgment? This is a seat. Romans 14:10 says, "we shall all stand before the judgment SEAT of Christ."

This is on the Feast of Trumpets, when the last trump of God calls the Tribulation saints to the assembly in Heaven. It also is the day the angels sound the seven trumpets and the trumpet judgments hit Earth. The Second Advent is still seven months in the future. Does this help?

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> Christ will choose a Bride that loves him dearly, not one that is merely lukewarm.

So then, Laodicea will be completely lost?

My reply

No. The Laodiceans will not be lost. The overcomers are promised that they will "sit with me in my throne" (Rev. 3:21). That means they will be in Heaven as the Lord said, "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool" (Acts 7:49). They will just go to Heaven in the Second Rapture. As in the days of Lot, fire will fall that same day.

They will be taken to Heaven between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals, just as Rev. 7 is placed between Rev. 6:12 and Rev. 8. By that time, they will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

Incoming Email, Re: Raptures

> Christ will choose a Bride that loves him dearly, not one that is merely lukewarm.

As you can see Marilyn, Your 1st Trump Rapture (Pre-trib) doesn't coincide with your Last Trump Rapture (PreWrath)--BECAUSE THERE IS NOT TWO RESURRECTIONS OF THE JUST ON THE LAST DAY! Compare the two passages!

> First, the first Trump: "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
> the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (as sounded for the first time at
> Sinai): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we ('brethren,' I Thess.
> 4:1) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to
> meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one
> another with these words" (I Thess. 4:16-18).

> Now the Last Trump: "Behold, I show (Greek: tell) you a mystery; we shall not all
> sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
> trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
> shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51-52).

Haven't the dead already risen in the first trump?

My reply

> Your 1st Trump Rapture (Pre-trib) doesn't coincide with your Last Trump Rapture
> (PreWrath)--BECAUSE THERE IS NOT TWO RESURRECTIONS OF THE JUST ON THE LAST DAY!

The two Raptures are ten years apart. The first Rapture is, I think, in the Jewish 5758, the second in 5768.

There do not have to be two resurrections of the just on the last day. One can be on the first day and the other on the last day. There will be Christians who will die during the Tribulation. There are ranks in the resurrection (I Cor. 15:23), "every man in his own order (tagmati, rank, a series or succession)."

BTW, the word "changed" in I Cor. 15:52 is in Strong's "allasso," to make different, change. It is not interchangable with being caught up. It is when this corruptible puts on incorruption and this mortal puts on immortality.

My heartfelt thanks to all who like my Web Site. God's wonderful blessings on you all. May we meet at the assembly in Heaven right after the Rapture.

In Christ,
Marilyn
(Mrs.) Marilyn J. Agee


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© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-26-97