Pro and Con 262

Uploaded 2-5-99

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The Learning Channel just had a segment on the moon. Guess what? They said most scientists accept the fact of the moon being formed from the earth. It is your Pacific Moon. Did you know that it is accepted theory now? I didn't. Agape

My reply

Yes, the three theories on its formation were tested and two were deemed impossible. That left one, that the moon came from the Earth.

It is just like continental drift. I accepted that way back. It took years and years before scientists accepted it. It is also like archaeologists. If you give them enough time, they finally agree with the Bible.

I have said all along, that scientists would get farther faster if they would only start with the information in the Bible. The Creator only tells the truth. But, no, they have to do it the hard way and try to figure it out all by themselves by trial and error, by proposing a hypothesis and then trying to prove or disprove it.

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Re: PRO/CON # 260 THE 5 DOVES, wrote:
We exchanged ideas about 18 months ago. I wrote you RE: the Magen David The post you referenced in your pro / con, I wrote for publication in "The Jewish Voice" & "The Messianic Times". I sent it to the 5 Doves more or less on a whim. Actually it's a cut 'n paste from my rapture teaching. ...May Ad-nai Bless & Keep you & your loved ones. Shalom Alechim.

My reply

I enjoyed reading what I have seen so far.

You might want to check your arithmetic on the following. I do think you are probably right about the Regnal year. That was a good idea.

> "G-ds prophetic clock of prophecy was to be synchronized by the reginal year of Israel,
> 1949, not 1948. To 1949 we add 50 (not 40) as 50 is the year of Jubilee (a.k.a. year of
> release,,,read rapture here). This would have put them at 1989. But we know the groom
> tarries. How long-easy. The tarry time is given by the shadow on the steps of Ahaz,
> going back (i.e. delaying) 10 steps or increments. Thus it is quite compelling that
> 1989 + 10 = 1999 as the year of rapture.

I enjoyed finding out more about the Saros too.

Here is what we said, first yours, then mine.
> > "we add 1967 + 40 to get 2007, the year of Yeshuas second coming
> ***I think the Second Advent will be on the beginning of the Regnal Year, Nisan 1, 5768
> (our April 6, 2008). 5728 (1967/8) + 40 = 5768 (2007/8).

What you said is good thinking. The Feast of Trumpets in 2007 is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is also the Day of God's Wrath, the day of think darkeness (Joel 2:1-3).

I believe that Jesus is crowned in Heaven that day and sits as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. However, he does not return to Earth for 7 months (Ezek. 39:12). (5768 is a leap year.) He does not return on a dark day (Zech. 14:5-7).

He returns on Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal year.

Hosea 6:1-3 says that the Lord will come as the former rain (Tishri 1) and as the latter rain (Nisan 1). The latter rain is the Second Advent.

This is confirmed in Ezek. 29. Verse 17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." This is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Logos, Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Incoming Email sent me his complete file on the Rapture.

My reply

***From Marilyn: Thanks for sending me your whole file. I enjoyed reading it very much and think that overall, you have done a lot of good thinking. We differ in places, but no two are ever going to agree on everything. This subject is too deep for that. As a Messianic Jew, you have the best of both worlds. May the Lord bless you in every way.

***I will comment on some things that I don't remember covering on Pro and Con 260 and will appreciate your thoughts after comparing our differences.

***Also, at the end I tacked on something totally different that I would appreciate your view on. Another thing, do you have any information on whether Sivan 6 or 7 is the true Biblical date of Pentecost? Should the omer be counted by inclusive reckoning or not?

> 3. Sivan (Post-Exilic name) May-June Month 9 in civil sequence. Asa renews the
> covenant of himself and people in (2Ch 15:10). Agriculture: Early figs ripen
> Wheat harvest. Feasts: 6th, Pentecost or Feast of Weeks (Lev 23:15ff); Harvest.

***Isn't the first Rapture a wheat harvest? Doesn't Song of Solomon 2:13 show that the Rapture is a time of "green figs"? Unger's Bible Handbook says that figs ripen in Ab (Av). If you have a reference that says "Early figs ripen" in Sivan, I'd appreciate having it. What about the grapes blossoming and beginning to produce tender grapes? Is that possible in Nisan? Unger says that grapes begin to ripen in Sivan.

***Song of Solomon 2:11 says, "the winter is past, the rain is over and gone." Isn't this the latter rain of Nisan that is over? I'd love to find that the Rapture would be in Nisan, but so far Pentecost seems to fit best.

***II Chron. 15:10-18 says, "So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month (i.e., Sivan 1)...And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul...and sought him with their whole desire: and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about....And he (Asa) brought into the house of God the things that his father had dedicated, and that he himself had dedicated, silver, and gold, and vessels."

***Does that suggest our being brought into the house of God in Sivan?


***Since Eve was taken out of Adam's side on the 6th day, maybe the Rapture of the Bride of Christ will take her out of the Second Adam's Body on the sixth day, i.e., Sivan 6.

> Gen. 29:9...One of the earliest similitude's or foreshadows of the rapture is Jacob (a > type of Yeshua) and Rachel (his future bride and ultimately the wife). Jacob (Yeshua) > rolls back the stone at the well (the stone symbolizing a door opening, i.e. the > rapture; the well symbolizing the living water, the water of life) to water Rachel's > sheep (she represents the bride who is to be raptured. It is HER sheep that are > watered [brought to heaven] first !)

***From Marilyn: There were two brides for Jacob, Leah and Rachel, and he had to serve seven years for each. They suggest the two Raptures and the seven good years and the seven bad years (the Tribulation). The first bride was brought to Jacob the evening after Laban "made a feast" (Gen. 29:22). This makes me think the Pre-Trib Rapture will take place on a feast day. If Laban made a feast for Leah, he probably made a feast for Rachel too. I expect the second Rapture on a feast day also. Leah was faithful, but Rachel took her father's gods with her and died along the way giving birth to Benjamin.

> ISAIAH 57: 1 The righteous perish, {the Hebrew word here is better translated to evacuate;
> to exit rather than perish} and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away,
> and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.

***Thanks for the better translation of "perish."

>29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

***The Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah, the Pre-Wrath as the days of Lot, when fire falls that same day.


***Two trumps, two Raptures.


***I agree. This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. When the last trump sounds is the assembling of all saints from one end of heaven to the other and from one end of the Earth to another (Mk. 13:27).

> 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves
> come out, you know that summer is near.{ THE RAPTURE OCCURS ON Nisan 16, 5759 April 1/2 , 1999

***Pentecost is even closer to summer. Next Sivan 6,7 is May 21,22, 1999. Summer begins June 21.

> The temple was finished in seven years

***If the temple of Rev. 11:1 was only partially completed at the beginning of the Tribulation, and its completion was the occasion of the False Prophet sitting there shewing himself that he is God in Mid-Trib, when could construction start? (2006 - 7 = 1999)

> in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second
> month, he began to build the temple of the L-RD...In his (Netanyahu's) fourth year (1999
> Jewish inclusive reckoning--- 1996 being the first) the 3rd Temple will be started.

***If the Rapture was on Nisan 16, as you propose, the Rapture would precede the beginning of construction. That seems reasonable since we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, and Israel would be taking over as priests. Since 1967, her priests would be over 30 and less than 50, of the right age to serve in the temple.

***However, consider this. Ziv is now called Iyar. If the temple is begun next Iyar, it could be just before the Rapture on Pentecost in Sivan. It could be a sign or warning. If it happens in that month, I would expect it seven days before the Rapture, because Noah knew the flood was coming seven days before the Ark door was closed. If the Rapture is on Saturday, Sivan 7, seven days prior would be Saturday, Iyar 29 (May 15). If the Rapture is on Friday, Sivan 6 (May 21), seven days prior would be Friday, Iyar 28 (May 14, the anniversary of Israel's Declaration of Independence. This, and the 2300-day shortened Tribulation starting on Sivan 6, makes Sivan 6 sound likely. Give it some thought and let me know what you think.

> As Israeli tank forces rolled across the Sinai (in the Six-Day War), towards their
> Egyptian enemy, their Egyptian foes were slaughtered and broke ranks. This allowed
> for the swiftest tank battle ever fought. Terrified captured Egyptian soldiers
> recanted an incredible story. It seems what terrified them to their core was not so
> much the Israeli steel headed their way, but the 60 foot high angelic beings with
> flaming swords, leading the tank columns that instilled total horror in their bones.

***Thanks. I had not heard this. How did you find it out?

> The time or season of the rapture is spring before June when (Song 2:)13 The fig tree
> forms its early fruit; MICAH 7: 1 What misery is mine! I am like one who gathers summer
> fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster of grapes to eat, none of the
> early figs that I crave. 2The G-dly have been swept from the land; (the rapture has
> OCCURRED in the springtime.) not one upright man remains.

***Pentecost, May 21 or 22, 1999, still fits the first Rapture. The KJV has "The fig tree putteth forth her green (pag, torpid, i.e, crude, unripe) figs." The grape gleaning is in the fall. That fits the second Rapture on Tishri 1, 5768, our Sept. 13, 2007.

> Also, the L-rd commanded that some 'wheat' be purposefully be 'left behind': Lev
> 19:9 and Lev 23: 22Š.. 9" `When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to
> the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 Do not go
> over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them
> for the poor and the alien. I am the L-RD your G- d. ,,,,, 22" `When you reap the harvest
> of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of
> your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the L-RD your G-d.'"

***I think this covers both Raptures. The wheat harvest is the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost. The grape harvest is the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Feast of Trumpets.

***On the Feast of Firstfruits, Nisan 16, the first sheaf of barley was cut and waved before the Lord. That was the second day of Unleavened Bread and no leaven being present represented Yeshua, the sinless one, not sinful man. On Pentecost, it was a different story. The wheat was made into two loaves, baked WITH LEAVEN, probably representing both Jews and Gentiles and two fulfillments of the feast. The first Rapture is likely to be more Gentiles than Jews. The second Rapture is likely to have a much higher percentage of Jews. We know there are at least 144,000. On Pentecost, the leaven, which represented sin, could represent man, but the loaves were baked. This baking destroyed the leaven. To me, Firstfruits represents Christ ascending to the Father the day of his resurrection, taking the OT saints with him. Pentecost fits the Rapture, when Christ comes to take the Bride of Christ to Heaven. In the interval between the Ascension and the Rapture, Christ is preparing a place for us, that where he is, we may be also.

> {Is. 46:8 "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9Remember the
> former things, those of long ago; I am G-D, and there is no other; I am G-D, and there
> is none like me. 10I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is
> still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11From
> the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
> What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.}

***I'm glad you brought that out. What is written is not subject to being changed. I love that, "What I have said, that will I bring about."

> Exodus, escape from evil--The rapture, deliverance from the wrath of G-d.

***At the Exodus, God won the battle with Pharaoh (type of Satan), and saved the Israelites. However, they did not enter the Promised Land on that same day. In 30 AD, on the FEAST OF FIRSTFRUITS, Nisan 16, Jesus won the battle with Satan, and made our salvation possible. However, we may not enter our Promised Land on that same day, either. At Sinai, Israel was betrothed to the Lord on Pentecost. Will we also be betrothed to the Lord on Pentecost?

***I did not mean to capitalize the above. It just happened. Neither the shift nor caps lock key was down.

> SONS OF LEAH...................NORTH STATIONED

***That's interesting, but how can it be? Sons of Leah were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun. Sons of Rachel were Joseph and Benjamin. Sons of Bilhah were Dan and Naphtali. Sons of Zilpah were Gad and Asher. There were three tribes camped on each side of the Tabernacle.

1st division: on the East .(flag: lion) .Issachar, Judah, Zebulun
2nd division: on the South (flag: man) ..Simeon, Reuben Gad
3rd division: on the West .(flag: ox) ...Manasseh, Ephraim Benjamin
4th division: on the North (flag: eagle) Asher, Dan, Naphtali

***According to Josephus, the Levites camped around the Tabernacle in an inner circle, the tribes in outer circles. There were roads running in circles too, and they bought and sold among themselves along these roads. The whole thing seems to me to represent Saturn with its ring system. Later on, the Levitical cities were constructed with an inner and an outer circle too.

***Do you have any references that connect Saturn symbolically with the tribe of Judah?

>I only see one wedding & I believe that Yeshua returns for a single bride, not a harem.

***In Paul's message to "THE CHURCH" (II Cor. 1:1) at Corinth, II Cor. 11:2,3 says, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtulty, so your minds (plural) should be corrupted from the simplicity what is in Christ."

***Since I am already in II Corinthians 11, let me ask you something on another subject. Verse 14 says, "for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." Do you think the apparitions of "Our Lady" are this angel of light? Is there a connection with Jezebel (Rev. 2:20)? Jezebel means "Baal is the prince" ("Secrets of the Bible," by Timothy Dailey, p. 84). Shalom and agape

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P/C 260 response to Goneby 4299
Thanks , on behalf of your (students) readers for all the scholarship and the explanations of the foundational differences.

A lot of what 4299 stated seemed a bit too sweeping and with a few gaps that did not align.

I'd just like to be gone by Pentecost, this year, and confirm the details in eternity.

Pray all is as well as can be with you and Ed. Soon!!

Incoming Email

I enjoy your site, and it gives me new insight into things, even if I have to read over the same passage several times to finally "get it" in some cases.... I'm actually a very intelligent man, but things of the spirit cannot be understood with intelligence, but only with the Holy Spirit.

Anyway... my question. You state that a biblical generation is 40 years. This is a common figure that I've heard mentioned in many places, but my feeling is this. A generation is a flexible number and can be any number of years between 40 and 51.4. Let me show you why.

Matthew 1:17 tells us that all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and [all the generations] from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and [all the generations] from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations. When we add fourteen plus fourteen plus fourteen, the total is forty-two generations from Abraham to Christ.

The great chronologist, Thiele, says that from Abraham to Christ, we have a total of 2,160 years. Divide forty-two generations into that, and the length of a generation becomes 51.4. Add that to May 14, 1948, and one comes out at Rosh Hashanah, September 1999, when this generation that lives to see "all these things" comes to a glorious conclusion. Add that to 1967, the time Israel captured Jerusalem, and you get A.D. 2018.

Simply put. You very well might be right in your assumption that the rapture will happen this May, although I'm leaning more towards the September date, but in any case, we could have as may as 18 more years, although I really have a strong moving in the spirit about this "season".

My reply

Glad you enjoy my site.

I think Thiele is wrong on this point. I think Abraham was born in AH 2008. Dr. Arnold D.Ehlert, who was head librarian at BIOLA library when I did most of my research, wrote his "Syllabus of Bible Chronology" in 1946. In it, he said, "Up to this point there is perfect agreement in arriving at the date 2008 A.H. as the date of Abram's birth by Anstey, Panin and Ussher." This agrees with my tabulation of the dates from the Creation of Adam. AH 2008 was BC 2035. Adam's creation in BC 4043 - BC 2035 = 2008 years. Jesus was born in AH 4038 (BC 5). AH 4038 - 2008 years = 2030 years. Dividing 2030 years by 42 generations = 48.33 years. The Sign of the End of the Age in 1967 + 48.33 = 2015.33 AD. Even if we take that figure, all the prophecies of the end time must be fulfilled by then.

I ran all the computations up to that year when I first figured out the plan of end-time events. No year fits all the criteria for the Second Coming but the Jewish 5768 (our 2007/8). No other set of years fits the 2300-day shortened Tribulation but from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. After that, there must be 7 months to the Second Advent in Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008). The last year of the Tribulation must be a Jewish leap year or there would only be 6 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. The year 5768 is a leap year. I don't see how these things can drop into the calendar at any other point within the 2015 years.

Aside from the many times we are told that the Israelites wandered in the wilderness 40 years while one generation died off, Jesus told the Pharisees, "All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did. From 30 AD to 70 AD, is 40 years.

The number 40 means testing and probation. Adam was tested in Eden 40 years. Jesus was tested 40 days. Saul, David and Solomon each ruled 40 years. Only David won the right to sit on the throne again during the Millennium. I'll stick with 40 years for one generation.

Ever since Israel took the rest of Jerusalem, she has been living in her 40-year time of testing and probation that ends this age. That year of 1967 + 40 years = 2007. I expect this age to end as Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) begins. It is the Feast of Trumpets, a fitting beginning for the millennial Day of the Lord. It is also a fitting day for the seven trumpet judgments to be cast on Earth.

Since I expect the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Tribulation) to begin on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in 2001, and there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation, I don't think we have much longer to wait for the Rapture.

I don't see a September date for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Song of Solomon 2:10-14 seems to show that it is in the spring. Winter is past. The latter rain of Nisan is over and gone. There must be green figs and the grapes must at least be in blossom. These things fit Pentecost, the only feast that we can be certain applied to the Church (in 30 AD). The former and latter rains come in the first months. The former rain begins Tishri 1, the first day of the Jewish civil year. The latter rain begins Nisan 1, the first day of the sacred and regnal year.

It can begin to rain in Israel in September. It rained last September 13. I took notice because Tishri 1, 5768 is our Sept. 13, 2007, fourteen years after the Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. This to me shows us which are the seven good years and the seven bad years, as when Joseph took up the grain in the seven good years. We are wheat, and I expect to be taken up within the seven good years (1993 + 7 = 2000). We are running out of time. The seven bad years (Tribulation) are 2001 to 2007.

I think Jesus was born as the former rain and will return as the latter rain (Hos. 6:3). I also think he will be crowned on his birthday (Song of Solomon 3:11, AMPL.) "That day," as Tishri 1 is called over and over in the OT, will be Coronation Day, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Day of God's Wrath, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

"And then (just before the Judgment Seat of Christ on Tishri 1, 5768) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those taken up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture) (Mk. 13:27)....Agape

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FWD: Christianity is spreading in the face of Hindu fundamentalism
The Sowers Ministry reporting (prayer needed)

Persecution of Christians in India is reported to be at its highest level in 50 years....On January 23th, 1999, in an unbelievably violent incident that has shocked the Christian world, an Australian missionary, Mr. Graham Stewart Steins, (58), and his two sons, Philips (11) and Timothy (6) were burnt to death at Manoharpur village in Orissa. The Hindu radicals poured petrol on the station wagon in which Mr. Steins and his sons were sleeping after a church meeting and set it on fire....Please pray for Grahamıs widow Gladys, and their 13-year-old daughter Esther.

The Blood of the Martyrs Already Bearing Fruits:
A day after Graham and his sons were martyred, TSM Director, Guine Anderson sent us the following report from Chennai, India: "We saw between 120,000-150,000 people gather every night in a mass crusade to hear preaching about the saving, healing and delivering power of Jesus Christ. Literally tens of thousands responded by giving their lives to Jesus. Thousands were healed of physical illness throughout the crowd." These meetings were held January 24-27, 1999. Guine was preaching with our family friend Dr. Job of the Love in Action Society. Another reporter said, "Hundreds of tribal people in a section of northern India are becoming Christians through the efforts of evangelists. The area is known for violent tribal clashes. It is the greatest revival we know of at this time. You don't get this kind of revival without persecution, and bloodshed, and martyrdom. One comes with the other."...

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