Pro and Con 265

Uploaded 2-7-99

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Burt Bellows wrote:
> > Surely, you can see the difference between "the TRUMP OF GOD" and the
> > seven trumpets sounded by ANGELS. The "TRUMP OF GOD" is an assembly
> > trumpet, one of TWO. The SEVEN are judgment trumpets.
>
> I hope you won't take offense if I say No, I don't.

***From Marilyn:I don't take offense. You are as welcome to your views as I am to mine. I am not about to try to pound anything into anyone's head. I just give my view, and it is up to the other person to search the scriptures and see if these things are so. Each of us is accountable to God. We should deal with other in God's agape love.

***The Rapture is an assembly, and is called by assembly trumpets, not by judgment trumpets. Judgment trumpets are for unbelievers. Heb. 12:22 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

***If you want to believe that believers will go through the first six trumpet judgments, you are welcome to that belief. For me, I don't think the Lord would put us through that. Under the first trumpet, one third of trees and grass are burnt. Under the second trumpet, a mountain-sized piece of an asteroid impacts the Mediterranean Sea (Zech. 2:4,5), killing a third of the creatures in the sea and destroying a third of the ships. It also kills 5/6ths of the army that is attacking Israel (Ezek. 39:2). Under the third trumpet, a larger piece of an asteroid impacts Earth. One third of the waters become poison and many man die. Under the fifth trumpet, the bottomless pit, the center of the Earth, is opened, releasing the demons that are now imprisoned there so they can torment men. Under the sixth trumpet, a third of the men of the earth are killed. Can you honestly say that you think the Lord would heap those judgments on believers?

***Believers are in Heaven receiving their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ at the very same time the unbelievers on Earth suffer God's Wrath on their unbelief. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (attacking Israel and bringing God's fury up in his face, Ezek. 38:18,19), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, AND THEM THAT FEAR THY NAME, SMALL AND GREAT; AND SHOULDEST DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

***It seems physically impossible to be receiving rewards in Heaven and also be on Earth during the first six trumpet judgments.

> > Verse 24 says, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until
> > the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This does not refer to 70 AD.
> > It refers to the taking of Jerusalem in the Six-Day War of 1967.
>
> You offer no evidence for me to change my mind. But I'm not
> opposed to it if you have some reasoning you'd like to go into.

In 70 AD, Jerusalem was burned. In 1967, Jerusalem was taken by Israel. Therefore, the times of the Gentiles could not be fulfilled in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was burned, but could be in 1967, when Jerusalem again belonged to Israel. Jerusalem was to be trodden down from 70 AD "UNTIL" it was taken again by Israel in 1967.

> > Verse 32 says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be
> > fulfilled." This is talking about the generation born in 1967. It has nothing to do
> > with 70 AD.
>
> As to being born in 1967, you offer no evidence so I can't agree yet.

***The disciples asked Jesus what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. He answered them with the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. It reveals that the Six-Day War of 1967 was the Sign of the End of the Age. He said, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Ezek. 36:8; Jer 24:5); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e, no more than 19, as when they came out of Egypt, and Israel was 19 in 1967), and putteth forth leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank),ye know that summer is nigh (the war began June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (Israel back in the land and growing), know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (door is a symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8; 4:1; here we see that there is more than one door, i.e., Rapture). Verily I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (1967 + 40 = 2007).

***A generation is 40 years. Not only was Israel in the wilderness 40 years while one generation died off, but Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Mt. 23:36). They did, in 70 AD, 40 years after the Crucifixion in 30 AD.

> Are you the one offereing two raptures?
>
> If so, I actually have a reason to think you may be correct, though it is not so
> much biblical as it is by way of reason based on the bible.
>
> People thought our Lord was coming 'once', but it turns out He was coming a second time,
> with 2000 years between. I see it as very Godlike to perform that same sort of thing here
> again, just to make me wrong. (vbg)

Yes. I believe there are two Raptures. I sent my reasons in my previous post.

> > We are supposed to "comfort one another with these words" in I Thess. 4:13-18. Why?
> > because we, the ten virgins, both wise and foolish, have set before us ONE CHANCE
> > to "ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS," all of them, not part of them.
>
> I take great comfort knowing we will escape the wrath of God!

But you are in effect saying that we will not escape 6/7ths of the wrath of God, because you think we will be here until the 7th trumpet of judgment sounds.

> > Behold, I come quickly (the Pre-Trib Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that
> > no man (including Burt Bellows) take thy crown."
>
> I have no desire to take your crown. If you have that kind of an attitude in our
> discussion, please consider it over. I will not fight about these things with a brother
> or sister. I will discuss and have fun and be uplifted, but I will not fight and cause
> bad feelings.
>
> Assuming you are jesting, I can say simply that the very same thing is accomplished
> by seeing it as escaping God's wrath.

***I did not mean to fight at all. I don't fight. It is just that I won't let anyone rob me of the Pre-Trib Rapture. I can see it in Scripture. It is my "blessed hope" by which I can be comforted in my trials and tribulations of these latter days. I Thess. 4:18 says, "comfort one another with these words."

> I see no reason for God to take us out of the tribulation.

I do. We believers are the salt of the Earth. In breadmaking, salt retards the growth of leaven. As long as we are here, our salt (because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit) restrains the appearance of the wicked one.

> > > My view is pretty simple there. Either you ARE a christian, or you are not. There
> > > is no in-between, and God will not judge us here, but in heaven.
> >
> > That is true. If you are a believer, you will make it to Heaven even though you have
> > to get there so as by fire. You can go like Noah or you can go like Lot.
>
> Interesting view.
>
> I disagree of course, but you can certainly offer me evidence to change my mind.

***I'm glad you have an open mind. In Mt. 24:37-41, Jesus spoke of "one of the days of the Son of man (Lu. 17:22). There are two. Of the first, which is the Pre-Trib Rapture, he said, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Notice that there was no fire on the day that Noah was taken up.

***In Luke 17:22,23, Jesus "said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you (who find themselves in the Tribulation), See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in HIS DAY" (the Pre-Wrath Rapture is the same day the Sign of the Son of Man is seen, Mt. 24:30).

***Jesus then told about the "days of Noe" and said, "so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural, the day that is as the days of Noah [the Pre-Trib Rapture] and the day that is as the days of Lot [the Pre-Wrath Rapture]) of the Son of man" (Lu. 17:26). "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they WERE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE, until THE DAY (the first one of the days of the Son of man) that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood (i.e., the Tribulation) came, and destroyed them all" (Lu. 17:26,27).

***Jesus continued, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded (BUT NO MARRIAGE IS MENTIONED); But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, AND DESTROYED THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in THE DAY (of the Pre-Wrath Rapture) when the Son is man is revealed (when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen, Mt. 24:30). In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away...Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:28-32). He is to be Raptured. He will not need Earthly goods.

***Noah's wife made it and was taken up before the Tribulation. Lot's wife didn't make it. I think those of the first Rapture are the wise virgins who are the Bride of Christ. They go with the Bridegroom because they are ready. Those who go in the second rank are the remnant of the Body of Christ. Just as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam, the Bride of Christ will be taken out of the Body of Christ.

***The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the same day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth, but before the first trumpet sounds. It takes place (Re. 7:14) between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1). Thus, fire falls that same day, as in the days of Lot.

> > BEFORE the Tribulation, the group seen in Rev. 5:9 is in Heaven. BEFORE
> > God's Wrath is poured out on Earth, the group seen in Rev. 7:14 is in
> > Heaven. Neither group go through any of the seven trumpet judgments.
>
> 24 elders and a lot of angels is not a group of raptured people...
>
> You have to be inconsistent in interpretation standards to arrive at that conclusion,
> assuming very much that is not explicitely stated. Can you give your evidence these 24
> represent a multitude, whereas in Rev 7 the multitude is explicitely described?

***Sure. Rev. 5:8-10 says, "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty ELDERS fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints (they are the Representatives of the whole group, just as the 24 priests on duty in the temple represented the whole group of priests). And THEY sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book (full of Tribulation woes), and to open the seals (none being open yet) thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION: And hast (past tense, and before the Tribulation) made US unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth."

***I think 12 of the elders are the 12 patriarchs of Israel and the other 12 are the 12 apostles. Numbers 10:4 says, "And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are HEADS OF THE THOUSANDS OF ISRAEL, shall gather themselves unto thee."

> > To the Philadelphians, for whom Jesus had no words of condemnation, he said, "Behold,
> > I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy CROWN. Him that
> > overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
> > and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God,
> > which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write
> > upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
> > churches" (Rev. 3:11-13).
>
> Major assumption on your part here, but I'm tired and we can talk about it later, okay?

For sure. I can see that you are too tired. Most of the above is Scripture. I didn't add a single editorial comment. The introductory phrase can be verified in Scripture. Jesus was addressing the Philadelphians, and there are no words of condemnation listed in his whole address to them. You can check it out.

> > The seventh seal is opened in Rev. 8:1, not in Rev. 7. If the Pre-Wrath Rapture happens
> > in Rev. 7, and it does, how can you think it has anything to do with either the 1st
> > trumpet that blows in Rev. 8:7 or the 7th trumpet that blows in Rev. 11:15? And how
> > can you say "fortunately we won't be here" when you think we will be here until the
> > 7th trumpet?
>
> No, Rev 8 uses the words 'had opened', making an aorist tense, as in punctiliar past.
> Therefore it was making a new description of an event which 'HAD' already transpired.
>
> I am consistent here, and hope you can see it. If you are
> reasonable you can see my view even if you disagree.

***I see your view, and disagree. There was silence in heaven. That only happens when the seventh seal is broken. I think it is when the Judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The first trumpet does not sound until verse 7.

> For you it is to be taken up to avoid trouble, but for me it is to be Holy and know God
> that we may go through the trial succesfully, overcoming because we 'loved not our lives
> unto death'.
>
> I think too many peoples interpretations are affected by their desire to escape a
> terrible event. I can understand the feelings.

***Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment." I think this "time" is man's 7000-year test. I think the 7 Tribulation years are this "judgment." I don't think the Bride of Christ has any part in it. It is Israel's fifth cycle of discipline. Israel was told, "if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times (years) for your sins. And I will bring a sword (the "flaming sword" of Gen. 3:24, i.e., the asteroid) upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant" (Lev. 26:23-25).

***Isa. 57:1-4 says, "THE righteous perisheth (abad, wander away, exit, evacuate), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (the Pre-Trib Rapture), none considering that the righteous is TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME (the Tribulation). He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But DRAW NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress (the Beast and the False Prophet), the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (the Harlot church of Babylon). The righteous are taken away, then the Beast and False Prophet come on the scene, not the other way around.

***Psa. 91:8,9 says, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast (past tense) made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall NO EVIL befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling."

I'd appreciate it if you will see what you think and get back to me. Agape

Incoming Email

Julienne Chambers wrote:
Greetings in the Name of Jesus! It was such a surprise to receive an email from you! Infact I feel rather honoured. Thankyou for posting me a copy of your reply to Jean Kinkaid. She and I have briefly corresponded a couple of times in the last few years .. we became acquainted through '5 Doves'. I first heard your name through Jim Bramlett and Charles Ryalls. Having visited your website I am thoroughly impressed by your sincerity, your love of Christ, your selfless service of His Body and knowledge of God's Word.

I have not yet read the article referred to by Jean .. the one that connects events 400, 430, 450 and 480 years from 1517 to key events in the history of ancient Israel. When I wrote to 5 Doves I was unaware that you had also made this connection .. and felt greatly encouraged when I realized the fact. I took it as a confirmation that the 'pattern' I perceived is indeed of the Lord. That He should reveal this to me is simply amazing! I truly stand in awe of Him. And you wrote about the '400's' in 1987?!!?

I would like to respond to your comments.
...By the way .. I live in South Australia .. am 45 .. and the mother of 5 children aged 10 to 17. I am married to Wesley - a Biol/Sc/Maths teacher .. we attend a Uniting Church. God bless and keep you in His care. Love in Him, Julienne Chambers.

My reply

> I have not yet read the article referred to by Jean .. the one that connects events 400,
> 430, 450 and 480 years from 1517 to key events in the history of ancient Israel.

And modern Israel. The correct blocks of years found in Scripture are: 400, 430, 450, 480, 483, and 490.

> you wrote about the '400's' in 1987?!!?

Maybe sooner. I can't remember just when I found it out, but I copyrighted my first book, "Exit 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed," in 1987. One chapter,"Modern Parallels," is about the blocks of years in the 400's.

> Firstly, as regards the '400's' .. do visit the Temple Mount Faithful Movement's
> website and read the article describing the laying of the cornerstone in Zion in
> October 1997 at the start of Israel's jubilee year.

They have tried each year for several years and have been prevented by police from laying the stone on the temple mount.

> it is probable in my opinion that 483 years from the decree of Luther the Messiah
> will 'come'in the final revelation of Himself to Israel. I believe this will take
> place toward the Year 2000

I wish you had read what I wrote. You might want to consider what the 490 years might indicate. You have hold of part of the truth.

> read through Isaiah 28 to 30. I firmly believe that in the present context
> the 'covenant of death' described in this passage is the Oslo Accords.

I reread it. I think the "covenant with death (the False Prophet), and with hell (Satan)" (Isa. 28:15; Rev. 6:8) is the FINAL 7-year agreement that is to be confirmed (Dan. 9:27) on the Feast of Weeks in 2001. The "Oslo Accords" (the precursor of the final treaty) was signed on Sept. 13, 1993 and confirmed in Israel three days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Adding the 7 good years and the 7 bad years, as when Joseph was in Egypt, brings us to the first day of the Millennium, the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768, in our 2007.

Adding 14 years to Sept. 13, 1993 = Sept. 13, 2007.
Adding 14 years to Tishri 1, 5754 = Tishri 1, 5768.

Do you realize that Tishri 1, 5768 IS Sept. 13, 2007? and that the end of the 490 years since 1517 is 2007? Even better, using the Jewish 5278 (fall of 1517) + 490 years = 5768 (our 2007/2008), which is the first year of the Millennium and the year of the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008). This agrees with the 40 years of probation since the Sign of the End of the Age in 1967 (1967 + 40 = 2007).

If we had entered the Tribulation in 1993, we would have passed the middle of the Tribulation in 1996. We would know who the Beast and the False Prophet are. We would be sure what the Mark of the Beast is. Moses and Elijah would have already prophecied 1260 days, been killed, resurrected, and ascended to Heaven. The False Prophet would have stopped the sacrificing in the temple on the day he killed Moses and Elijah. He would at present be waging war on the Messianic Jews, most of whom would have already fled to Petra. It should be clear that 1993 was not the beginning of the Tribulation.

> Certain respected bible teachers believe in accordance with
> Martin Anstey's Chronology that King Cyrus issued his decree in 457 BC. But
> according to Ussher, Cyrus' decree was issued in 536 BC

Martin Anstey found an 82-year mistake in Ptolemy's period of the Persian kings. The year BC 536 - 82 years = BC 454 (not 457). The 483 years of Dan. 9 - 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD, the year of the Crucifixion, when the Messiah was "cut off" (karath, killed) (Dan. 9:26). Adding the 40 years of iniquity and probation (Ezek. 4:6) to 30 AD = 70 AD, when Jerusalem was burned.

> He was 'cut off' after '7 and 62 sevens' .. that is AFTER 62 SEVENS ..
> in the middle of a seven .. the 70th seven.

I think all of the 70th seven, the Seventieth Week of Daniel, is the seven-year Tribulation.

> I sincerely believe the 70 Week Prophecy applies first and foremost to the decree
> issued in 457 BC .. but in a secondary sense to the decree issued in 445 BC and in
> 1947 AD .. and to the decree of Luther issued in 1517. I believe the restoration of
> the Jews to Jerusalem following the babylonian captivity is an OT type of the restoration
> of the Church during the Reformation. I believe the decree of Luther is tied to the
> restoration of the Church AND the restoration of Israel AND the second coming of the
> Lord. I believe the 70 Week Prophecy was fulfilled in a partial sense nearly 2000
> years ago in the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem .. and that the ultimate
> fulfillment of the prophecy will take place at the 70th Jubilee of Israel .. towards
> the Year 2000.

I believe the 70 Week Prophecy began with Cyrus' decree in BC 454. I think that 490 years (7 x 70 = 490) from 5278/1517 will be the Jewish 5768 (2007/8). It will start with the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). Seven Jewish months later (Ezek. 39:12), the Lord will return on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year, Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008). The Nisan 1 date is found in Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3; Joel 2:23. Christ will return on the same month and day as all the other Israelite kings officially took office. Agape

Incoming Email

>I think Thiele is wrong on this point. I think Abraham was born in AH 2008...

>I ran all the computations up to that year when I first figured out the plan
>of end-time events. No year fits all the criteria for the Second Coming but
>the Jewish 5768 (our 2007/8). No other set of years fits the 2300-day shortened
>Tribulation but from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

Thanks so much for clearly all of that up for me. What you said here makes a whole lot of sense, and it filled in a lot of the gaps that I had in my thinking up to this point. The above, especially, was quite insightful.

>I don't see a September date for the Pre-Trib Rapture. Song of Solomon
>2:10-14 seems to show that it is in the spring. Winter is past. The
>latter rain of Nisan is over and gone.

You might be right on this point as well. I'm just hesitant to stick it down on one particular date, and considering something significant already happened on Pentecost, would something else happen on that date as well? Are there other examples of feasts being fulfilled multiple times for multiple purposes?

>We are running out of time. The seven bad years (Tribulation) are 2001 to 2007.

On the running out of time part we agree 100%, and your dates here look very impressive as well, and they do fit with what I have suspected for about 6 years now.

>I think Jesus was born as the former rain and will return as the latter rain
>(Hos. 6:3). I also think he will be crowned on his birthday (Song of Solomon
>3:11, AMPL.) "That day," as Tishri 1 is called over and over in the OT, will
>be Coronation Day, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Judgment
>Seat of Christ, the Day of God's Wrath, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Speaking of which - I noticed your chronology... Very nice work on that, by the way... I have another question that might be a bit off the topic, but not entirely. In Revelation chapter 12 when Satan is thrown out of heaven, and John observes the heavenly war: Is that the same war spoken of in Genesis or a 2nd war? I'm inclined to think it's the same war, and I'm trying to think outside of linear terms on this. I know it fulfils the prophecy in Daniel 12, but I guess what I'm thinking, and I'm being quite esoteric in this train of thought is this: The battle in which Satan and the fallen 1/3 of the angels wage both has happened and hasn't happened - it's outside of our measurement of time... So at this time, Satan accuses the brethren before the father, and Jesus is our Advocate, while at the same time, he and his army have already been thrown out of heaven. I know that sounds very convoluted, and I don't think I explained my thought process here very well... Do you understand what I mean?

Thanks for your time and help on these things! You're doing the Lord's work, and I know He's grateful to have servants like you.

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Updated 2-7-99