Pro and Con 267

Uploaded 2-12-99

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a doctor told my wife to look at your page.
Why are you misleading people into believing you know when the rapture is.
NO MAN KNOW THE DAY OR THE HOUR
many have predicted and failed.

My reply

Mt. 24 ends with "The lord of that servant (the evil one) shall come in a DAY when he looketh not for him and in an HOUR that he is not aware of. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The companion passage in Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unfaithful and unwise one) will come in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and at an HOUR when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" (the shortened Tribulation).

Here it is evident that the wise servant will be looking for Him on a DAY that he is aware of, and in an HOUR that he is aware of. It is the evil servant that is not aware of the day or hour.

In Rev. 3:3, Jesus warns the churches, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what HOUR I will come upon thee." However, if we do watch, he will not come on us as a thief, and we shall know what HOUR he will come on us.

This helps us understand Mt. 24:36: "But of that DAY and HOUR knoweth (present tense) no man." On that day, no man knew.

Isa. 28:9 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." The church is old now and can understand what the baby church could not. In Dan. 12:4, we see that in the time of the end, "knowledge shall be increased." Verse 10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise SHALL understand."

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Re: Thank you:
I just want to thank you for the great work you have done in such an open forum, without pre-judging what is written to you. You stick to the Word of God, and try your best to reveal that to us, the readers of this site... We can take it or leave it as we please, but some reason deep inside my heart I believe you are on the right path... I can hardly believe it has been just about a year since I found your site. I was excited to learn, at that time, we could have been joining our Lord. Was I disappointed we did not go at that time.... sure.. but for some reason, I continued to read and learn from your site... and now with ~3.5 months of a possible rapture... I look forward to that day.... I will continue to learn, it is an addiction...and I know I will never be able to understand all.... but I am happy to say I am 1 more year wiser in the LORD's word... and if the time comes and goes again.... it just gives me more time to learn and watch... it is great to see all unfold before our eyes, and I also agree with most of your readers... time is near. GOD BLESS you, your husband, family and friends.

My reply

Bless you for such kindness.

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Recently: to heaven and back! (bramlett@magicnet.net (Jim Bramlett)
Dear friends:

Today I spoke with 63-year-old Darrell R. Young of West Virginia and heard part of his amazing testimony. Darrell had written in response to and affirming our nationwide 1/4-page newspaper advertisement announcing "Christ's soon return" First let me say that I was very impressed with Darrell and really got a good witness as to his credibility. He is intelligent and articulate. Darrell was a businessman and an avid golfer, but because of his experience, like Dr. Richard Eby and his almost identical experience, he is now doing nothing but full-time ministry, every chance giving the message the Lord gave him, saying there is no time for anything else.

Just over two years ago, on October 25, 1996, he saw Jesus! Darrell had a severe heart attack. He relates:

"He held my hand and took me to heaven. I was in extreme pain, having suffered a terrible heart attack just outside the operating room. My spirit came out of my body, and as I agonized in pain just watching the doctors cutting into my earthly body, a hand came down and grasped my left hand. Immediately all my pain stopped. As we traveled through space at tremendous speed, I thanked Him for stopping my pain. He said, 'I did not stop your pain. I took it the same as I took your sins on the Cross.'

"We talked for hours in front of the Eastern Gate (in the heavenly city), and all that I saw and heard would fill a book, but what I want to do here in this short space is to deliver the most important part of the message.

"Jesus is poised and ready to return to earth. He said, 'I'm not coming back to be born of a virgin, to live a sinless life, to be whipped, to suffer on the Cross and to shed my blood to save those who ask.' He said, 'I've already done that. I'm going to return in great splendored glory, and no one on earth will have the words to describe the majesty of my return.'"

Darrell continues, "His glorified body will appear in great beauty, and everyone will recognize Him as King Jesus. If you don't know Him, now is the time to ask Him to save you. Soon the trumpet will sound and the Grace Period will end. I know he is real. I pray to Him that you will believe and receive the miracle of the New Birth."

Later:
Re: my message yesterday about Darrell R. Young's trip to heaven and back and revelations he received from the Lord in late 1996.

A couple of people have asked my what he may have learned about the rapture vs. the second coming. Good question. In my haste, I didn't think to ask. Duh.

But I called Darrell tonight on something else and asked him. He said that he received no special revelation on the rapture, only that the Lord's return is soon. But based on his study, he does strongly believe in a pre-trib rapture. While we can only base such beliefs on Scripture, I respect the depth of his experience and general revelation. It may be noteworthy that Dr. Richard Eby, who had a similar death experience and trip to heaven, also understands there will be a pre-trib rapture.

I note also that his revelation was peaceful and not of disaster, and spoke of beholding the Lord's glory and splendor. This beholding could certainly apply both to the rapture and to the second coming. The message was not a dire warning of coming tribulation, destruction and "chastisement" as are some others. This is just speculation, but perhaps the message of peace and comfort is to God's people who will be raptured, and the messages of warning and destruction (which we also know is coming) are for the unsaved and the world.

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The Victims of Divorce: Our Children
My name is Dawn Wilkes and I am forwarding this e-mail to everybody I can find. Why? I have 3 children that I promised I would never ever stop until I got them back home after being abducted by their alcoholic father some 3 1/2 years ago.

My webpage: http://pages.prodigy.net/crystal82/mypage.html

tells the story but after 3 1/2 years and 3 jobs, it all boils down to having to have the money for legal fees to get them back. I am doing a walk in my hometown of Jacksonville, Florida the last weekend of March up Beach Blvd. and ending at the courthouse to raise the funds to bring my children home. If even just a few people were able to help and donate $1.00 per mile or anything, it could save the lives of my children who are already now bearing and showing the results of living with an alcoholic for the past 3+ years.

I have worked very hard and done everything physically possible to try to do this alone but now I am asking for help for the first time in this whole nightmare.

If you can help in anyway, please contact me.

Thank you! Dawn Wilkes, "Legal Mom," crystal82@prodigy.net

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god's radiant dawns
I am a young man who has been blessed with the presence of God's wonder in my life. I am surrounded by His holy presence breathing the golden light into my soul. We must encapsulate ourselves in the holiness of His Being, letting His love permeate every inch of our soul. I want to encourage others out there wondering about their destiny, their struggle to survive day by day. God is guiding each of us down pathways we cannot fathom, realities of illimitable meaning filled with wonder and fresh perception.

It is hard to live with God's joy, but will it to be and it will be! He will pur out His joy and lather you with endless radiances of His Being. I feel like I speak with a tongue of diamonds, constantly trying to reflect the magnitudes of God's infinity, His Shining Glory that smothers us with waves of Light!

I explode in His dawns!

In some ways, Marilyn, we are already there, praising the Lord in eternities we cannot understand, speaking in layers of light filled with all the reflections of our souls' potentialities. We will realize the intricacy of each being's amazing purpose, the strands of destiny that God connects and wraps up into the unbelievable whole. Christ stands on the far hills and waves us onward, and we fly to Him and play in the fields as sheep whose wool gleams with heaven's wondrous sheen. We are almost there! Just one step from eternity!

Hang on, dear friends, smile with God's glory!

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do you absolutely believe that the rapture must be on a sunday?

My reply

Sorry to take so long to answer. My Inbox is now down to 272. Had computer messages of not enough memory. My computer froze and I had to restart. I thought I was working as hard as I could, but somehow I need to work harder.

However, if I had been able to answer right away, I would have said, "Yes." Now, I do not think it HAS to be on Sunday. It ties in to the first of the "days of the Son of man" mentioned in Luke 17:22-28. Those are the days of the two Raptures, the first as the day of Noah, the second as the days of Lot.

One thing, I think Rev. 1:10 does not refer to is the millennial Day of the Lord. That starts the day of the second Rapture, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Moses and Elijah have to prophesy before that can begin.

In the Preview of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 1:10 says, "I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." This is the same Lord's voice like a trumpet that says, "Come up hither," in Rev. 4:1.

I'm keeping an open mind on it and looking for other clues that will show us exactly what it means.

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FWD: Burt Bellows wrote: Re: The Last Trump

Hi Gavin,
...What I mean by the below statement is that since adopting a 'simplistic' way of interpreting scripture (assuming that the simplist answer is probably right), I checked out the possibility of reading it for exactly what it appears to be saying.

> "I cannot escape the simple fact that 1 Cor 15:51 tells us exactly when the rapture
> will be. At the last trump, the esxatae salpinx, blown as the 7th seal i opened in
> Rev. 7, where you immediately see the rapture in verses 3-17. The further details are
> given in Rev. 8 and on, as the results of the 7 trumps blowing are shown upon the
> earth (fortunately we won't be here)."

And with that attitude (being so very different than when I went to school for my degree in theology), eschatology opened up and everything made very much sense.

I did not have to dance around mentally trying to balance plates as I did before. (please don't take that metaphor to mean I think you believe you have to dance around).

So in my simple reading, it is a fact that 1Cor 15:51 speaks of the last trump, that revelation's 7th trump is the last trump in our complete revelation, and that if I am to read it as simply as possible, that trump is the last trump Paul is refering too.

Since that works out very well with taking every other scripture simply at it's 'simple' meaning, and the timing likewise works out on a chart (I drew up a 6 foot wall chart 10 years ago to map out every scripture and how it all fit together), my understanding must be that I do not need to and should not add other things to scripture, such as a trump it does not mention, etc....

May God bless you brother, it was nice to hear from you.

Burt

My reply

Burt Bellows wrote:
> I do not need to and should not add other things to
> scripture, such as a trump it does not mention

***From Marilyn: Respectfully, Burt, of course we can't add to Scripture, but here is where the FIRST TRUMP is mentioned in Scripture:
I Thess. 4:16-18 says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

It does not line up with the first of the seven trumpets of judgment, therefore it is not of that series. Of the first judgment trumpet, Rev. 8:7 says, "The first ANGEL sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." The first Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37), and NO FIRE FELL at that time.

The first trumpet of judgment is sounded by an angel, not God. It is also not something to comfort one another with by repeating the effects of it often.

Neither does "THE TRUMP OF GOD" line up with the seventh trumpet of judgment. The seventh trumpet announces what is taking place at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rev. 11:15-19 says, "And the seventh ANGEL sounded: and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world ARE become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever." This is the first day of the millennial reign of Christ.

Continuing Rev. 11:15-19: "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats (thrones), fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (the Second Advent is still 7 months in the future, Ezek. 39:12); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned." The Coronation ceremony has taken place earlier on this same day.

The judge (Christ) was then seated during the "silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" just BEFORE the "seven angels which stood before God" were "given seven trumpets" in Rev. 8:1,2. The elders (12 patriarchs and 12 apostles) had been taken to Heaven previous to the Tribulation (Rev. 4:4). For "God having provided some better thing for us (Church saints), that they (Old Testament saints) without us should not be made perfect" (Heb. 11:12).Since the 12 patriarchs are in Heaven at this time, so are the rest of the Old Testament saints. Since the 12 apostles are in Heaven at this time, so are the rest of the Church saints. This group of saints is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9.

Continuing Rev. 11:15-19: "And the nations were angry (attacking Israel, Ezek. 38), and thy WRATH is come ("my fury shall come up in my face...in the fire of my wrath have I spoken," Ezek. 38:18.19), AND the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT (i.e., both Raptures have already taken place); AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

At this time, the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the Millennium, all saints are already in Heaven getting their rewards AT THE SAME TIME that unbelievers on Earth are getting their just rewards for their unbelief.

Continuing Rev. 11:15-19: "And the temple of God was opened IN HEAVEN, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament (covenant): and there were lightnings, and voices, and thundering, and an EARTHquake, and great hail."

"THE TRUMP OF GOD" of I Thess. 4:16 does not line up with the seventh trumpet of judgment. Those saints are already in Heaven by the time of the seventh trumpet.

Neither does the "LAST TRUMP" of I Cor. 15:52 line up with the seventh trumpet of judgment. Those saints are also in Heaven prior to the seventh trumpet of judgment. Therefore, neither the first "TRUMP OF GOD" of I Thess. 4:16 nor the "LAST TRUMP' of I Cor. 15:52 sound at the seventh trumpet of judgment.

The first "TRUMP OF GOD" of I Thess. 4:16 calls the Church saints to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, when "the first voice (Christ's) which I (John, one of the 12 apostles, an elder) heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, COME UP HITHER." In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1:10, John said, "I was (became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a TRUMPET." This group taken to Heaven before the Tribulation are the ones "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" of Rev. 5:9.

The "LAST TRUMP" of I Cor. 15:52 is the second assembly trumpet. It calls the Tribulation saints to Heaven after the sixth seal is broken in Rev. 6:12. They are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14,15, which says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD." They are before the throne of God before the judge is seated at the bench in Rev. 8:1, before the seven angels are "given seven trumpets" in Rev. 8:2 as the judgment is given.

The Church saints are caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1. The Tribulation is "hereafter" (Rev. 4:2).

The Tribulation saints are caught up to Heaven in Rev. 7. They are caught up as this age ends and the Millennium begins. Mark 13:27 says, "And then (when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the clouds [Mk. 13:26, Rev. 6:14], when he "SITTETH ON THE THRONE," Rev. 6:16) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Church saints that were taken to Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation). ALL the saints are gathered BEFORE the Judgment Seat of Christ, BEFORE the seven angels are given seven trumpets, BEFORE the first angel sounds his trumpet, and BEFORE the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets are sounded by the angels.

I Thess. 4:16 describes the first "TRUMP OF GOD." That Pre-Trib Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell at that time.

I Cor. 15:52 describes the "LAST TRUMP" of God, when ALL the saints are gathered before the throne in Heaven, some from Heaven, others from Earth. That Pre-Wrath Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day, but it fell AFTER LOT LEFT SODOM. Likewise, the fire associated with the seven trumpet judgments will fall AFTER the Tribulation saints are called to Heaven.

Of the first judgment trumpet, Rev. 8:7 says, "The first ANGEL sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up." This fire follows the "LAST TRUMP" of God that calls the Tribulation saints to Heaven. Where there is a "LAST TRUMP," there also must be a first trump. Since the second trump is the "last trump," there are not seven trumps in this series, only two, as there were two assembly trumpets in Nu. 10.

When "ONE TRUMPET" is blown, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (i.e., the 24 elders of Rev. 4:4), shall gather themselves unto thee" (Num. 10:4). Along with the elders are those of Rev. 5:9: "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10).

When "BOTH" trumpets are blown, "ALL" the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8, i.e., Heaven's door, Rev. 4:1) of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Nu. 10:3). ALL here includes those Church saints that are gathered from Heaven as well as those Tribulation saints that are gathered from Earth, the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" who stand "before the throne" in Rev. 7:9.

When "ALL" are gathered before the throne of God, "we shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:51,52).

At the end of this age, when "the LORD shall be SEEN OVER THEM (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and his arrow (the asteroid) shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD (not an angel) shall BLOW THE TRUMPET, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. The LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6) shall defend them (Israel, against the army under Gog); and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones" (Zech. 9:14,15).

Some things are not simple, because "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line...HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:13). And "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10). It was necessary that things be not so simple that the wicked could understand them. Luckily, you and I have the indwelling Holy Spirit to help us understand. Agape

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Could the Unites States be the figurative/spiritual type of Babylon spoken of in Revelation? John apparently wrote the book of Revelation around 70AD. This was after the literal babylon was already destroyed! Could the demise of the first Babylon be a swadow of things to come for our blatantly immoral country?...

My reply

I don't think the USA is Babylon. I think Babylon is on the Euphrates River in Iraq. Hab. 1:5,6 says, "Behold ye among the heathen (Israel dispersed), and regard, and wonder marvelously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you. For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans (i.e., Babylonians), that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's." Chapter 2, verses 3-5 says, "the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at THE END it shall speak, and not lie...Yea also, because he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home (moves from Israel to Babylon), who enlargeth his desire as HELL (Satan), and is as DEATH (Rev. 6:8), and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him ALL NATIONS, and heapeth unto him ALL PEOPLE."

Jesus gave John the script for Revelations about 96 AD. Therefore, it seems reasonable to expect the "open door" set before the Philadelphians to be open now ('96 AD +), and the Rapture to be now "at hand," as in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10).

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Thanks for your quick reply. The prison story confirms that "our struggle is not with flesh and blood......" Thanks to the Grace of God we live in America. My mind horrifies at the thought of America during the trib without the "Restrainer". I seem to be having a harder and harder time dealing with what's going to happen to the people here after the Rapture. I try to inform some but very, very few have the mind-set to hear it. I know there's nothing else I can really do but hope some of it rubs off on someone....

Also in 266, you are closing in on the 'ten days' of Rev 2:10. From my earlier e-mails, you may have gathered that understanding the 'ten days' is a personel goal I hope to achieve before the Rapture. I believe the seven letters in Rev are a prophetic history of the Church AND the specific state of the churchs at the time of the Rapture. For about a year now, I have made the assumption that the church of today will probably have 'ten days' of heavy tribulation before the Rapture. Until P@C 266, I assumed it would remain a mystery. I hope you follow up on it. I know I will on my end.

Tell Ed not to over-do it with his re-hab. Agape

My reply

> For about a year now, I have made the assumption that the church of today will
> probably have 'ten days' of heavy tribulation before the Rapture.

You could be right. If the resurrection of the dead in Christ would come on Ascension Day, ten days before Pentecost, I could see the ten days of Rev. 2:10 applying then. It says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Dan. 11:35 says, "some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end."

They changed Cardiac Rehab hours, so Ed goes one day, is off a day, then goes on two days straight. That tired him out, so he spent the next morning sleeping a lot. Rehab is helping his foot slap. It is not all gone, but is much better. We walked in the mall today 25 minutes without stopping. He did 30 minutes the other day. He was as amazed as the nurses at Rehab. They yelled, "Thirty minutes!" It was just a good day. His goal is to get back to 45 like we were doing before surgery.

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Updated 2-12-99