Pro and Con 271
Incoming Email FWD: Re: The deadly wound is healed: To: Dave C., Barolo82@aol.com
Jim Bramlett answered:
There is no biblical basis for what you say. This is a "private interpretaton," and is heresy.
Dave C. had written:
>Hi Jim, Regarding the beast from Revelation whose deadly wound is healed, and your
>note on the 5 Doves page, Revelation 13:3 says:
>3 And I saw one of it's heads as if it were wounded to death; and his deadly
>wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
>Jim, the beast is the law, which was "taken away" at the Cross, Hebrews 10:9-10. It was given
it's head wound at the Cross by Jesus - it was killed, "put away", "disannulled", "taken
away", "done away", "vanished away" and the like. It was the fulfillment of Genesis 3:15.
>15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and
>her seed; it shall BRUISE THY HEAD, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
>Satan is the law. At the Cross his head was bruised - he was killed, "taken out of the way".
>Every Sunday when we go to Church, they "resurrect" the law in their sermons and preaching,
>thus "his deadly wound was healed". They insist we keep the law, the Ten Commandments, in
>the flesh, even though, as you have noted in some of your posts, that "Christ is the end
>of the law for righteousness to those that believe".
> >Jim, the beast is not a person - he is the law, the "letter of the word that
> >kills" ( see 2 Corinthians 3:6 ). He is the lawyer in all of us, the "old man"
> >that must be "crucified with Christ". He is not Bill clinton - he is us, the
> >body, when we insist on retaining the law, thus blaspheming Christ and his work. Regards, Dave C.
Dave, if you get left behind when the Rapture takes place, you will find out to your dismay that the Beast is a man, the False Prophet is a Satan-possessed man, and both will be "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" in the battle of Armageddon.
Rev. 19:19-21 says, "I saw the BEAST, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him (Christ) that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the BEAST was taken, and with him the FALSE PROPHET that wrought miracles before him, which which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
Read Rev. 13:6-9. It is talking about a MAN that will head up the world government. It says, "he opened his MOUTH in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." Notice that the Pre-Trib Rapture has already taken place, and he got left behind.
Continuing, it says, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations (head of the world church and the world government). And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
Hos. 9:7 says of the Beast and False Prophet, "the prophet is a fool (Satan possessed), the spiritual man (the Tribulation Pope) is mad."
Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (the Tribulation Pope), he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail" (of the dragon, Satan, Rev. 12:3,4).
Of the flying rolling asteroid, "the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth" (Zech. 5:3), the LORD says, "I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6), and it shall enter into the house of the thief (False Prophet who steals the church), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Tribulation Pope): and it (the asteroid) shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof" (Zech. 5:4).
Since God's prophecies have literally come true 100% so far, know that this too will literally take place. The Bible means what it says. We are not given liberty to explain it away by making things represent something they do not actually represent. Take warning while there is time.
Strivings about the law are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:8-11 says, "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
If you are smart, you will repent and get right with God while there is time.
Burt Bellows wrote:
> > Richard's error is in assuming the tribulation IS the wrath of God, and that is a
> > very good topis to discuss. But it is not THIS topic.
> > If his assumption is wrong (and it is a great topic I'd be happy to discuss), then
> > we escape ALL of the wrath of God for sure, yet we do NOT escape the tribulation.
> > Reply:
> > It appears to me that what we have here is a dispute over whether or not the great
> > tribulation, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no,
> > nor ever shall be," includes the progrom of the Antichrist, or not. This then does
> > become the subject relative to Luke 21:36.
> > (Luke 21:35) For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on
> > the face of the whole earth.
> > Since Burt agrees that we escape the wrath of God, all that needs to
> > be established therefore is what this includes.
> I Like this very much and agree with Richard. What the wrath of God includes is
> absolutely the key, for we all know that we are not appointed unto wrath.
***From Marilyn: Isa. 9:19 says, "Through the WRATH of the LORD of hosts (Christ, Isa. 44:6) is the land DARKENED, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire."
***The darkness BEGINS at the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and continues through the seventh seal. Under the fifth trumpet, the bottomless pit is opened, "and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were DARKENED by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Rev. 9:2). This is the Feast of Trumpets. Joel 2:1-3 says, "BLOW ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: the THE DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A DAY OF DARKNESS and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of THICK DARKNESS."
***Rev. 6:12,17 says, "when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood....For the great DAY OF HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
***Isa. 13:9-13 says, "the day of the LORD (the Millennium) cometh (i.e., the first day of the Millennium), cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be DARKENED...the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil...Therefore I will shake the heavens, and THE EARTH SHALL REMOVE OUT OF HER PLACE (knocked upside down when the asteroid impacts), in the WRATH of the LORD of hosts, and in THE DAY (one single day) of his fierce ANGER."
***Isa. 24:1 says, "BEHOLD, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof."
***Ezek. 7:2-19 says, "An end, the end (of this age) is come upon the four corners of the land. NOW is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine ANGER upon thee...An evil, AN ONLY EVIL, behold, is come....the DAY OF TROUBLE is near (it is the next day, Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets)...Now will I shortly pour out my FURY upon thee, and accomplish MINE ANGER upon thee: and I will judge thee (at the Judgment Seat of Christ that day)...They have blown the trumpet, even to make all ready; but none goeth to the battle: for my WRATH is upon all the multitude thereof. All hands shall be feeble, and all knees shall be weak as water....They shall cast their silver in the streets...in THE DAY OF THE WRATH OF THE LORD.
***"Ezek. 38:18-22 says, "it shall come to pass AT THE SAME TIME when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the FIRE OF MY WRATH HAVE I SPOKEN, Surely in THAT DAY there shall be a great shaking...the mountains (asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down...and I will plead against him (Gog) with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him...and upon the many people that are with him...fire and brimstone."
> I don't want to be too optimistic however, since to me now it becomes a very simple
> thing, yet my friend Richard thinks HE has the upper hand in understanding.
> Disagreements are fun. This is a joyful part of the conversation. Just when we THINK
> we have it, we will find some part where we are assuming things and start all over
> again. But praise God for the little breaks we get like this one.
> I kinda sorta woulda liked a line by line response, though, as I thought my points were
> most useful, but I won't complain if Richard feels this is the key for the moment.
> > This great tribulation, Jesus said, is like a great snare (trap) that shall come upon
> > ALL them that dwell upon the face of the earth. ALL, not some! Burt, do you imagine
> > that the prophesied Antichrist, which shall be the quintessential despot of all
> > history, shall not be a significant element in this snare?
> Rats, here is the first assumption gone bad... My good brother seems
> to take this snare as the tribulation? Is this right Richard?
> Now our Lord says 'that day' shall come, and here may be yet another good topic, for I
> can demonstrate with some clarity that 'that day' is the 'Day of the Lord' which is a
> very specific one year time period where God's wrath is poured out.
> This begins in the OT and is also a thread in the NT. To give those not into eschatology
> a start, by studying Daniel and other prophets we know that the tribulation is a one week
> period prophesied upon Israel, where each day represents one year.
> This is known as the 'time of Jacob's trouble', and is a very well established doctrine
> (which I'll be happy to share, but I think Richard agree's with me here, but I'm not sure).
***The "time of Jacob's trouble" is one single day. Dan. 12:1 calls it "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people (Israel) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."
> The key is that these 'days' are very well established to mean 360 day years (the jewish
> calendar is based on 360 days, and in fact that is where we get 360 degree's in a circle,
> etc. The 365.25 length day we currently experience is not how God set up the universe
> originally, but is the result of sin and His judgment in Noah's day...
> So the Jews compensate for reality by adding a fake month in every few years.
> ANYway, all prophetic years are 360 days long. If you look at 1200 days in Rev. and
> Daniel then, you see that it is 3.5 years long, or 1/2 of the 7 years of the
> tribulation (The anti-christ sets himself up and takes over in the middle here).
> All of this to say:
> Christ said 'that day' will come upon those on the earth, and He is speaking of
> the wrath of God which we will escape.
> Our question is, what does 'that day' contain, for it is the wrath of God. It contains all
> of the 7 trumps which begin it (the 7 bowls continue and conclude it) and lasts one year.
***"THAT DAY" is the Day of God's Wrath. It is the day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. The wrath (i.e., the astroid impacts, Rev. 8:8,10) does not last but one single day, but the plagues caused by God's wrath continue for awhile. On "that day," "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea...and there fell a great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning" (Rev. 8:8,10).
> So we shall indeed escape it, yet not escape the anti-christ who will persecute and
> kill the believers, as my good brother shows below with Thess where we see 'that day'
> (the day of God's wrath, and our rapture immediately before it) shall not occur until
> we first see the anti-christ.
> I'm a little surprised at this, as most pre-tribbers do not believe we will see the
> anti-christ, but my good friend Richard apparently see's that we will. (please correct
> me if I'm wrong, Rich, I'm not running on all 8 cylindars today but have some kind of
> flu big trying to get me).
> > Let me refer to some other Scriptures that put all of this into perspective.
> > (2 Th 2:3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day[the day of Christ, the
> > Rapture spoken of in verse 1] shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
> > and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
***We will not see the wicked one revealed. The Rapture takes place first. In the New Scofield Reference Bible, II Thess. 2:2-8 says, "That ye be not soon shaken in mind...as that the day of the Lord (the Millennium) is present. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away (apostasia, departing, separation as in an apostacion, divorce, i.e., the Rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition....And now ye know what restraineth that he might be revealed in his time...he (the Holy Spirit) who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way (at the Rapture). And then shall that wicked one be revealed."
> > We are told that our gathering up unto Him will not happen until the
> > great and final apostasy of Christendom, which brings us to the
> > present day. We are also informed that we, or some of us, shall know
> > who the man of sin, the Antichrist is. From this point in the
> > Scriptures we are informed of some key characteristics of this man of
> > sin, by which we can know who he is.
***I plan to be outta here before we can know who he is.
> Amen again.
> > (2 Th 2:7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who
> > now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
> > We are furthermore informed that this man of sin will not be able to
> > come "into his time" of power until the restrainer is taken out of the
> > way. Many have asserted that it is the Holy Spirit IN the saints that
> > is preventing the ascendancy of the Antichrist at this time. This is
> > reasonable to believe, since our Lord also said that we are salt and
> > light in this world.
***We are salt, and salt retards the growth of leaven in breadmaking. When we are gone, there will not be enough salt left to retard the growth of evil.
> Naturally I TOTALLY disagree here. I can't possibly make a doctrine
> from an assumption like this, and to build up an eschatology based on
> an unknown is not reasonable.
> I'll say it like this anyway: This takes us away from 'proof' texts
> and puts it in the category of possible theology. Richard MAY have
> a point here, but as soon as we make an assumption we can no longer
> hold that it is a 'proof' text speaking directly and unarguably to
> the point.
> > We are NOT told to expect to have to somehow
> > survive the nightmare of history that commences with the rule of the
> > Antichcrist.
***True. We are told to watch for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
> I feel some circular reasoning about to happen where Richard appeals
> to Luke 21 again.... (g) No fair Rich, that is the point we are
> discussing, you can't already assume it in an argument.
> If you don't, please let me know where you get this from. I certainly
> do see us told we will suffer and be killed, by our Lord who warns us
> even in this passage of our persecution. Obviously we WILL be killed
> and persecuted (probably in the reverse order... sorry) or he would
> not have warned us of it. Of course this applies to men through all
> of history, but as Richard notes, especially and specifically to this
> end time we live in.
> > The question is: Is the reign of terror by Antichrist, part of God's
> > wrath:
***No. It is of Satan, not God. The Beast is given his power by the dragon (Rev. 13:4). The False Prophet "spake as a dragon" (Rev. 13:11).
> Righto, Richard. I agree.
> > (Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
> > ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
> > unrighteousness;
> > (Rom 1:24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the
> > lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
> > themselves:
> > (Rom 1:26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for
> > even their women did change the natural use into that which is against
> > nature:
> > (Rom 1:28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their
> > knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things
> > which are not convenient;
> > It is clear from Romans chapter one, that the wrath of God is
> > manifested against the wicked when He gives them over to it, in other
> > words, He removes the restraint from them. This is not only a picture
> > of what we see in the world every day, but it also points to the
> > ultimate removal of restraint when the Antichrist shall then come into
> > power.
> > So the bottom line question in this matter is this: When Jesus tells
> > us to watch and pray that we may be accounted worthy to escape ALL
> > these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of
> > man, does this include escaping the time of unrestrained wickedness,
> > which is a clear judgment against ALL them that dwell upon the earth?
> > I say, that the promise to found worthy to escape ALL, means that we
> > may escape this nightmare of history that CULMINATES in the wrath of
> > God being poured out unmixed and untempered.
***I agree. Lu. 21:28 says, "And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
> That's a lot of assuming going on there (you have to say that with
> a southern accent like the congressman who is famous for saying,
> "Theya's a whoole lot a conSUMin going on out thea".)
> This is a whole lot clearer is we look at Revelation and see that
> God's wrath is poured out with the trumps and bowls, but NOT mentioned
> one bit at all, concerning the first 6 seals where the anti-christ
> is hanging around.
> Again, I like to take scripture at it's simplest view, assuming a man
> does not have to have a degree in theology to figure it out (I went and
> got me one but think it probably only hindered me for 10 years or so).
> So it seems fair to say that when revelation mentions God's wrath, that
> is when it is poured out, ala Rev 16:1, etc.
***How about ala Rev. 6:17: "For the great DAY of HIS WRATH is come"? The trumpet judgments are God's wrath that takes place on one day. The vials are the complete effects of God's wrath over time. For instance, in Rev. 8:8, "the third part of the sea became blood." Later on, in Rev. 16:3, "every living soul died in the sea."
> I'm assuming this will be a major point of contention, so look forward
> to more, I'm just mentioning it now.
> God bless you all, and especially you Richard,
You have such a countanance of tolerance for all those that are slinging
arrows of anger at your work. As an outside observer I sometimes feel such a
shortness of patience when obvious new visitors to your site find it necessary
to speak in ignorance of the work you've already published. Only a seventy
year old woman with many years of training in the spirit could handle these
brothers and sisters in such a gentle sincere manner. That fruit of the
spirit is what encourages me to persist in search of scripture. The end times
are certainly a confusing part of the bible but obviously they were written
for a purpose and I do believe that during the appointed hour the meaning will
be made known. Perhaps that is what is occuring with your study and
interpretation. I have seen an intensification of my own desire to confess
all known sins and ask the Holy Spirit to make me aware of my blindness.
I fully respect the work you have done. I admit it could be inspired by God
and may occur as you have been led to see it. I desire to see Jesus as soon
as possible and be received into heaven. Although I have much materially in
this world, and have a wonderful family, a great job and a busy life, it falls
sorely short of the wonders I anticipate in God's presence. I feel a strain
as I await the pre trib rapture. Am I placing too much emphasis on that
coming glorious day or should all Christians be panting for the reunion with
Jesus? Your brother in Christ.
> Only a seventy year old woman with many years of training in the spirit
> could handle these brothers and sisters in such a gentle sincere manner.
Thanks for your kindness, and maybe you're right about the above. I wasn't always as patient as I am now. Tribulation worketh patience, but inconsiderate is definitely in my vocabulary.
> I have seen an intensification of my own desire to confess
> all known sins and ask the Holy Spirit to make me aware of my blindness.
That is what we all should be doing.
> Am I placing too much emphasis on that coming glorious day or should
> all Christians be panting for the reunion with Jesus?
They should. What is more important?
thank you for responding to my question. I have just finished a book called judgement 2000 about y2k. What an eye
opener that was. I stiill lean toward a pre wrath rapture and would like to stay and watch and win souls but that is up to God. All I
know is that I see Daniel and Revalation opened up right before my eyes and I know matthew 24 is talking specifically about the
day we are living in. Jesus is comin soon and people get ready theres a train a coming. Thank You your brother in Christ
As to the discussion on Pro/con 263--I'm reading in Ezra 1 that Cyrus gave
the decree for the Jews to go and rebuild the TEMPLE.The decree to return
and rebuild and restore Jerusalem came from King Artaxerxes after Nehemiah
interceded with him-Nehemiah 2:1to 8.Are these not two seperate incidences
and two seperate dates from which to determine the chronology of Daniel's
70 week prophecy? In Deep
Those are two different dates. That has stumped many, but we have to remember that "the word of the LORD was...here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:13). It can't be so clear that the wicked will understand, for only "the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10).
Isa. 44:28 clears it up for us. The Lord "saith of CYRUS, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, Thou shalt be built; and to the TEMPLE, Thy foundation shall be laid."
The decree of Cyrus is the one we are to go by in Dan. 9. We have it in the Lord's words.
Pro and Con 272 Or Return
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