Pro and Con 272

Uploaded 2-18-99

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Re: Agee Timeline
...This is just a note to thank you for your PRO/CONs 268,269,270. You have put it all down in easy to read form.!   I still remember that incredible "hole in the clouds" that I saw at noon on May 29, 1998. It was so impressive that I believe it could have been a sample of what the sky will be like when he comes. Then again, he showed the hole 1 or 2 days early, so (if that is the case with the real rapture, He will come on the day or two before the 21st or 23rd of May, 1999?) I am one you awakened, so any day he comes will be wonderful.

Thank you again for putting your whole life into this. There are many rewards accrueing at the Bema seat for you.

My reply

...Glad you enjoy the Pro and Cons. I spend every minute I can spare on them. The reward I want to win is the prize Paul was working for, to be part of the Bride of Christ and "escape" when one assembly "trump of God" sounds. Any day is ok with me. I'm ready.

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FW: [biblicaldiscussions] Re: Rosh Khodesh
Greetings in Jesus' Name.
I have been participating in an egroup. I mentioned your material and web page and offered some of your insights. Here is one response I received. Can you help me respond?
Pastor -----

***From Marilyn: Of course. I will copy excerpts. My comments are marked with ***.

-----Original Message From: D'vorah
"Shalom, The gathering spoken of in Mattiyahu 24:30-31 is referring to the end of the 7 years when Yahushua and His Bride returns for Him to reign and Shamayim is closed at this time (Yom Kippur) (at Rosh HaShanah Shamayim opens--Yeshayahu/Isa. 13:2). There would be no need to Catch Away the people at the end of the Trib. period. At Yahushua coming the rashim (wicked) is destroyed (Yeshayahu 11:4; 2 Thess. 2:8) and the tzaddik (righteous) that are alive at His return are gathered to Eretz Yisra'el where He will reign from."

***In Matthew 24:3, the disciples asked Jesus "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aionos, age)." Nothing in this passage goes past the time when this age ends and the millennial Day of the Lord begins. Verse 31 takes place at this time.

***Isa. 13:6 describes this time: "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty." This is seven Jewish month BEFORE the Second Advent (Ezek. 39:12).

***The first day of the Millennium is the day of "thick darkness," the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1 (Joel 2:1-3). It is the Day of God's Wrath. It is NOT the day of the Second Advent. On the day Jesus returns (the following Nisan 1, first day of the Regnal Year), "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL the saints (including the Tribulation saints of Rev. 7:14) with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall NOT be clear, NOR DARK: But it shall be ONE DAY which shall be known to the LORD, NOT day, nor NIGHT: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light." It is Jesus' Long Day, foreshadowed by Joshua's Long Day. The reason for the long day is that the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8 and 10 temporarily turn this floating globe upside down (Isa. 24:1).

***Even this day is not quite to the end of the seven years. As the seven years come to an end, there is the Judgment of the Nations, when dominion is taken away from Satan. The Judge must be present on Earth BEFORE the Judgment of the Nations can take place.

***The Tribulation saints are caught away to Heaven as this age ends. Rev. 7:14,15 says, "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION...Therefore are they before the throne of God" (in Heaven). Those that go on into the Millennium are the sheep of the Judgment of the Nations. They have earned that right during the previous seven months.

"We see in Yeshayahu (Isa.) 66:20 that it says the Goyim (Gentiles-vs. 19) will be bringing many of the Yehudim--Jews (Yeshayahu's "brethren") that are in diaspora back to Eretz Yisra'el. This I believe is what...Matt. 24:31 is speaking of..not a catching up of the people as that is never a type of gathering that is referred to in Matt. 24:30-31."

***THE GATHERING IS FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER! How could it be a Rapture? In Mt. 24:31, "ONE" (Nu. 10:4) of the assembly trumpets is blown. This gathers the elders and the Bride of Christ to the Coronation of Christ and then the following Marriage of the Lamb. The Bride is gathered from one end of Heaven to the other, where she was previously taken in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

***Then the other assembly trumpet is blown. "And when they shall blow with THEM (plural, i.e., both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee" (Nu. 10:3). "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (Mk. 13:27).

***At the Pre-Trib Rapture, a group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) is taken to Heaven. At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues stood before the throne" (Rev. 7:9). What we want to strive to do is to be part of the first group. They are "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10). The second group "serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15).

***Between the group in Rev. 5:9 and the group of Rev. 7:14, all of Rev. 6 takes place. That includes from the beginning of the Tribulation through the breaking of the sixth seal. The first group is caught up when the first "trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) sounds before the Tribulation begins. The last group is caught up as the Millennium begins. The "last trump" (I Cor. 15:52) calls the Tribulation saints to Heaven.

***Therefore, Mt. 24:31 does NOT include the Pre-Wrath Rapture, but the companion passage in Mk. 13:27 DOES. The former is the gathering of the saints that are already in Heaven to the Coronation of the King of kings and the Marriage of the Lamb. The latter includes the transferring of the saints left on Earth to Heaven to receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

***Rev. 11:15f explains events of the first day of Jesus' millennial reign. "The kingdoms of this world are become the kindoms of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever...And the nations were angry (attacking Israel, Ezek. 38), and thy wrath is come (it's 6:00 PM, when Tishri 1 begins), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

"Yahushua's return to reign is  represented with the ...Shofar haGadol--The Great Trumpet which is only blown on Yom Kippur. (Yeshayahu 27:13; Matt. 24:31)"

***Yeshua returns on Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3).

***Hosea 6:1-3 says that the Lord will come as the former rain (Tishri 1) and as the latter rain (Nisan 1). The latter rain is the Second Advent.

***This is confirmed in Ezek. 29. Verse 17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." This is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Logos, Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

"As for the ladies (Marilyn Agee's) webpage...she can't prove her theory of a Shavu'ot "rapture" by Scripture, Hebrew concept of the Scriptures and the tavnit...all given by Elohim.  This is what keeps one from being deceived and using the wrong understandings to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures.....none of these three given for us to prove all things will show a Shavu'ot (Pentecost) catching away....but instead shows and teaches a Rosh HaShanah Catching I said before....Yahushua has fulfilled the first four--former rain festivals in His FIRST coming."

***There are two Raptures. The second is on Rosh HaShanah. I think the Song of Solomon 2:10-13 tells us what season the first Rapture will be in. It says, "My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away (i.e., the Rapture. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain (i.e., latter rain of Nisan) is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth (April showers bring May flowers); the time of the singing of birds is come (spring), and the voice of the turtle (lit., turtledove, i.e., the Holy Spirit) is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her GREEN FIGS, and the vines with the TENDER GRAPE (i.e., the firstripe grapes (give a good smell, Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

***The time slot when there are green figs and the firstripe grapes is a narrow one. It has to be at the end of May or early June. The only feast that fits this time slot is Pentecost, which is the only one that particularly belongs to the Church. In 30 AD, the Spirit of Christ came upon the Church. I am hoping he will "come on thee" (Rev. 3:3) and take her to Heaven on Pentecost, 1999. Israel was espoused to God at Sinai on Pentecost as a type. Ruth (which means filled, i.e., with the Holy Spirit) was espoused to Boaz, the kinsman redeemer, during the wheat harvest as another type. Queen Esther (hidden, secret) was another type. She was purified 12 months and then taken to king Ahasuerus (prince, head, chief, or lion king).

***Things happened to Israel as examples to us upon whom the ends of the ages is come.

***Israel was given the chance to go up EARLY into the Promised Land, when they spied out the land. It was at the time of the firstripe grapes. Now, we are given a chance to go up EARLY to our Promised Land at the time of the firstripe grapes.

***Only Joshua and Caleb believed God. The Israelites had to go through chastisement before entering the Promised Land. It will be the same for the Laodiceans today. They will be left behind for chastisement (Rev. 3:19), Tribulation, before they can enter the Promised Land.

***We are wheat. The wheat harvest begins on Pentecost.

----- wrote:
>>The scripture that caught my attention was Luke 21:36. I'd appreciate your comment on
>>it....Watch and pray? Accounted worthy? To escape? ALL these things?

***Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (i.e., ALL of the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO.

***There is one generation that has a chance to "ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS," just as Israel had an early chance to enter the Promised Land when they spied out the land. The last generation is the one that began when Israel took Jerusalem (fulfilling Lu. 21:24) and grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, West Bank), fulfilling Mt. 24:32-34. Israel took the rest of Jerusalem and the temple area in the Six-Day War, June 7, 1967. That year, + 40 years = 2007. I think Mt. 24:31 takes place on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). On the Jewish Calendar, the temple was taken in 5728. That year + 40 = 5768. The first day of that year is Tishri 1 (Sept. 13, 2007).

***We should watch. We should pray always. We should confess our sins so that we have a chance to be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation.

"The count never begins from the sunday after the Festival of Unleavened is always counted from the "morrow after the sabbath" which the sabbath here in Lev. 23:15 is referrring to the High Day Sabbath...we begin our count from Aviv 16 and have always began it from Aviv is proved by Josephus the Jewish Historian and I quote...Shavu'ot always falls on Sivan 6 by the Hebrew calendar which can be in day of the week and not on a Suns'day every year"

***...I have Josephus' quote that you sent me on my Web site....

"Plus I can also prove this by mathmatics of the B'ney Yisra'el's journey in the wilderness to get to the foot of Mt. Sinai and present themselves to Elohim on the 50th day--Shavu'ot if anyone wants me too."

***I would love to have this chronology. My email address is: I would like to present myself to Elohim on the 50th day--Shavu'ot, too.

"Brakhot b'Yahushua,
----- wrote:
I noted the scripture you quoted below and which also used in another post relating to the Messiah coming for His Bride. I'd like to comment on it. Here is the scripture:

  The voice of my beloved---Behold!  It came suddenly, leaping over mountains, skipping over hills. My beloved is like a gazelle or a young hart.  Behold!  He was standing behind our wall, observing through the windows, peering through the lattices. (Shir haShirim/Song of Songs 2:8-9)

As one continues reading one finds Song 2:10-13
My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. (KJV)

  If this is alluding to Jesus coming for his Bride, then I would have to say that it clearly indicates that this event would not be in the autumn but rather the spring -- probably close to Pentecost/First Fruits -- which makes more sense to me. How about you?

***As you can tell from what I said above, I think this passage sets the Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost. The time slot is so narrow that there is no other feast that will fit it. Just "the rain is over and gone" eliminates the feasts of Nisan (the month of the latter rain) and the feasts of Tishri (the month of the former rain). Only Pentecost is left. It is the only feast when the grapes are in blossom and forming tender grapes too. The turtledoves arrive in April. Everything fits.

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Your Olivet Discourse discourse is excellent!!! It is going to help a lot of people in putting things together into a big picture. WELL DONE.

Being an ex-pilot, I am particlarly interested in maps. This is what led to me mapping out the final destruction of the countries involved in the last wars. This 'project' began at the same time I was trying to get down all the "timing" of events in the Olivet Discourse. Since Ez 38-39 tells of the last war, I started there.

The first thing I did was re-read your writings on the subject and then go through all my books and papers to find references to the last war. Lo and behold, I ran across a commentary on Exekiel by Arno Gaebelein written around the turn of this century. I bought the book over fifteen years ago, and, at that time, could not follow it very well at all. I remember clearly that it was just too far advanced for me to comprehend so it went into the depths of a closet.

Now, today, I read it easily. It is absolutely amazing how the Spirit works. Arno was given incredible insight into what would happen in the last days. He was basicly alone in his beliefs of the 'literal" interpertation at that time (other than the Scofield group, of which he was a part and helped edit the Scofield Bible). His writing is with agape and his honesty about unknowns in the bible is his best virture. For instance, he fesses up quickly in Chapter 1 that no one knows what the cherubim is. He does admit that some visions are sealed until the last days. I was so impressed by his writing that I checked out his other books and found his commentary on Matthew, thus the Olivet Discourse.

So I have enclosed chapters 24-25 for you. Also, in his discussion on these chapters he refers to the importance of chapter 13 so I copied it and the introduction to the commertary. You and Arno are pretty much in agreement (except he says the first part is for the Jews only). The end results come out basicly the same way you are looking at it. I can't wait to hear what you think of his writings.

In my mapping project, I think I have found that Petra will NOT be the place to which the Jews will run. It is totally and utterly devesated by a direct hit of an asteriod that takes out the south cornor of Moab (Jer 48.45), setting on fire six towns north of the hit (Jer 48.1-9) in Moab.

In Edom (Idemua), the asteriod hits Mt. Seir with total destruction "As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomarrah" (Jer 49.18). The noise of the hit is heard to the Red Sea (over 150 miles to the south. Jer 49.21). Teman appears to take the full impact. Petra is only a few miles from Teman. God tells Dedan (on the northwestern shore of Saudi Arabia) to turn around and "dwell deep" because of the calimity coming down on Esau (Edom) Jer 49.8 When looking at all this mapped out, it becomes very clear. The asteriod, coming out of the north, will go over Moscow and the split into two main pieces somewhere over southern Russia or northern Turkey.

The eastern piece (and its trailing debris) hits Babylon and smaller rocks hit western Elam (Iran). The western piece has its main impact at Teman, with MUCH debris falling on cities under its path. You can virtually draw a straight line from the cities in northern Syria all the way to the impact point in Edom. Inbetween, God lists certain cities, including all around Jerusalem, that get bombarded by the smaller rocks....

My reply

> Your Olivet Discourse discourse is excellent!!!

Thanks. I did it at your request--and a couple of other's. I did enjoy putting it all down together instead of the piecemeal stuff I usually have to do to answer specific questions.

> he fesses up quickly in Chapter 1 that no one knows what the cherubim is.

That fact made me so desperate to know that I finally put my hands on my Bible and said, "Lord, you'll have to show me." I searched for that answer for seven long years of nearly constant reading of books from the Seminary Collection at BIOLA. My sister-in-law asked me how in the world I figured it out. I told her that I looked up just about every word in the original of Ezekiel 1. One of the first clues was that the word translated "brightness" is "nogah," SUNLIGHT. In his vision, "the heavens were opened." These heavens are the planets in our solar system that are lighted up by our sun. Ezekiel saw four of them, and one was the Earth. I got that from "one wheel (orbit) upon the EARTH" in v. 15. Once I got that far, I could work the rest out. Their "appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of LAMPS" (1:13). That fit the picture just fine, but at that time, I did not know that the lamps on the lampstand in the Tabernacle represented our solar system from the Sun to Saturn. I stumbled across that in Josephus much later. "LAMPS" tie-in to the lampstand was one clue I missed at first.

> In my mapping project, I think I have found that Petra will NOT be the place to which
> the Jews will run. It is totally and utterly devesated by a direct hit of an asteriod

Wait a minute. It is devastated, but remember that the Pre-Wrath Rapture has saved those people so as by fire. They get out before the asteroid piece strikes at noon on the first day of the Millennium. I mean, they are saved out of the fiery furnace by the skin of their teeth.

Also, a mountain sized piece of the asteroid strikes the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5; Ezek. 38:19,20). Consider too that the the asteroid may break apart at the Roche Limit, which is about 11,000 miles out.

I can hardly wait to see what you sent me. Thanks much...

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Updated 2-18-99