Pro and Con 281

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FWD: Two Raptures and the Tribulation
I have forwarded this to you because I believe that this post that I saw on the Five Doves letters will explain why everyone will be raptured.

The other raptures(in my opinion are Tribulation saints, and were not believers when the first rapture occured.

Please read this carefully, as it explains it far better than I ever could. It was written by a person named Kevin Drake....Following is his letter to the Five Doves letters:
I wanted to address the issue that seems to be "hot" at this site: The Rapture and the Tribulation. There is a plethora of confusion regarding whether the Church (the Body of Christ) will go through part of or all of the Tribulation Period (Daniel's Sevienth Week. Much of this confusion has arisen from a misunderstanding of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 and chapter 25. This has recently been demonstrated by recent posts to the Five Doves website that range from pre-Trib to mid-Trib to pre-Wrath to post-Trib. Folks who used to believe in a pre-Trib rapture are abandoning this position for a different view as a result of misapplying verses that were aimed at Old Testament Jews under the Law and then applying these same verse to the Body of Christ. No wonder so many people think the Church will go through the Tribulation. Now, on to some Scriptural evidence for a pre-Trib rapture that you may not have considered.

1.In the Song of Solomon, Jesus Christ is calling for His Bride to "rise up....and come away" (Song of Sol. 2:10). The setting is May (Pentecost) which is not within four months of the Feast of Trumpets or the Feast of Tabernacles.

***From Marilyn: In all the following, I'll give you my opinion. Pentecost is Sivan 6 or 7. There would be (1) Sivan, (2) Tamuz, (3) Av, and (4) Elul.

2. The "beloved" in the Song of Solomon (Song of Sol. 2:10) is a GENTILE bride, NOT a Jewish bride (see Song of Sol 1:5). 3. Every Bible expositor and prophetic teacher who confounded the angel's trumpet (Matt 24:31 and Rev 11:15) with GOD's trump (I Thess 4:16 and Rev 4:1-2) located the Rapture at the Feast of Trumpets in Sept-October.

***The first trump of God of I Thess. 4:16 was prefigured by the sounding of one of the two silver assembly trumpets in Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." These are the elders seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4. This represents he Pre-Trib Rapture on Pentecost.

***The "last trump" of I Cor. 15:52 was prefigured by sounding both of the trumpets in Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." On the Feast of Trumpets on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, as the first silver trumpet sounds, it calls the elect already in Heaven to the assembly, "from one end of heaven to the other" (Mt. 24:31). Then the other ("last") trump chimes in. It calls the Tribulation saints "from the uttermost part of the earth" (Mk. 13:27). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It takes place before the Judgment Seat of Christ convenes on the Feast of Trumpets, 2007.

***These two silver trumpets have nothing to do with the seven trumpet judgments except they sound on the same day, but before the seven begin to sound. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, all the saints, small and great, receive their rewards for their belief at the same time that the unbelievers on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief (Rev. 11:18).

4. "The last TRUMP" is NOT a trumpet! It IS the last SOUND made by a trumpet, but in this case, it was God's voice ("the TRUMP OF GOD") speaking "AS" a trumpet. John is careful to tell you that the "the trump of God" is NOT an actual trumpet but a "VOICE" (see John 12:29, Job 37:1-5, and Rev 4:1-2)which sounds like two things: thunder and a trumpet.

5. When this "trump" is heard, a voice is heard (Song of Sol. 2:10), calling SHEEP home (John 10:3-4). No voice (SINGULAR) is heard AFTER the seventh trumpet of Revelation chapter 11, which was blown by an ANGEL, not God.

6. It is "voices" (PLURAL) that are heard AFTER the seventh trumpet, and they do NOT call anyone up anywhere; they announce that Jesus Christ is going to land "on earth" (Job 19:25) to take over the "Kingdoms of the world" (see Daniel 2:25, 44-45).

7. However, there is a voice (a "great voice") which does call someone UP just BEFORE the seventh angel blows his trumpet. This voice says "COME UP HITHER". That is what John heard in Rev 4:1. But THIS TIME, the same voice (speaking the same words) is calling someone up at the END of Daniel's Seventieth week (towards the END of the Tribulation period). The two men who are addressed directly are both JEWS: Moses and Elijah. They are caught up in a POST-Trib Rapture. The "POST" is said to be "POST" in Matthew 24:29.

***Moses and Elijah are caught up in the middle of the Tribulation. They prophesy 1260 days (Rev. 11:3), and there are only 1040 days in the latter part of the shortened Tribulation (2300 - 1260 = 1040, Dan. 8:14). As soon as the False Prophet comes to power, he is Satan possessed. He loses no time and heads for the temple to sit there shewing himself that he is God. When the two witnesses will not worship him, he has them killed.

***Mt 24:29 is at the breaking of the sixth seal. See Rev. 6:12,13. The Tribulation saints are caught up between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals, just as Rev. 7:14 is between Rev. 6:12 and Rev. 8:1.

Remember II Timothy 2:15 (you won't find the word "STUDY" in the ASV, NASV, or NIV)---only in a KJV will you find the word "study" in the above verse. Wonder why God told you to study and to rightly divide the Word of truth?

Now, here are two raptures; a "Pre" and a Post-Tribulation Rapture. As said earlier, the POST is clearly said to be POST in Matthew 24:29 and right here is where most folks will get into trouble. Matthew's gospel was written to Old Testament Jews under the Law and to present Jesus Christ as King of the Jews. People will break their theological "necks" in Matthew, Acts, Hebrews, and James if they are not careful. This is exactly what I referred to earlier: if people misunderstand the above passage in Matthew, they will conclude that the Church will endure the Tribulation. I will demonstrate this in a moment. Now, by mistaking the "elect" (Matt 24:24) for the "elect" of Ephesians 1:5, people OVERLOOKED the "elect" to whom the passage was AIMED (see Isaiah 45:4 and Isaiah 65:9,22 and Daniel 7:18, 21-22, 25, and 27)and then PRETEND the "elect" were Christians in the Body of Christ. They cannot handle "strong meat"(Hebrews 5:12-14)and they cannot digest "sound doctrine" (II Tim 4:3). They do not obey II Tim 2:15, nor II Tim 1:13 nor John 5:39. With Matthew 25:1 RIGHT IN FRONT of their noses (following Matthew 24), they insist that a bunch of "virgins" are going to marry Christ after being told that His Bride was ONE "chaste virgin" (II Cor 11:2), the "ONLY ONE of her mother" (Song of Sol. 6:9).

***There is ONE Body of Christ too, but it is made up of many cells.

If THAT weren't enough, the Holy Spirit tells you in Matthew chapter 25 that NONE of the virgins in the chapter married ANYBODY! They were called out to "MEET" somebody (Matt 25:1).

***The Bride is called out to go with the Bridegroom to his Father's house. The Marriage of the Lamb follows Christ's Coronation and precedes the Judgment Seat of Christ on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium.

And if that were not enough, the Lord finished the ENTIRE chapter of Matthew 25 with a WORKS salvation set up (vss. 35-40) where the Gospel Paul preached (Gal 1) was not even a FACTOR in keeping sinners out of "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41). Don't believe this? LOOK IT UP!

***Mt. 25:32f is the Judgment of the Nations. It takes place on Earth and has to do with the remnant that will live on into the Millennium.

Now, look up the following verses in your King James version and NOTICE the CONTEXT for every verse: Revelation 6:16, Rev 14:14, Matt 24:30, and Rev 1:7,10. Notice something. Not ONE of those passages matches the Second Advent as described in Revelation 19:11-15, Isaiah 63:1-6, Joel 2:1-3, Judges 5:1-20, or Habakkuk 3:3-14. READ THEM PLEASE!

NOTICE something. SOMEBODY sees Jesus Christ at the end of the Tribulation BEFORE He arrives at Armageddon with His divine "cavalry" (Rev 19). The requirements for the "elect" (NOT Church Age Christians) SEEING this Post-Tribulation "appearance" are (1) purity of heart (Matthew 5:8), (2) holiness (Hebrews 12:14), and (3) watchful waiting (Hebrews 9:28).

***This elect includes all God's heavenly group, Gentiles, Jews and the Church. can get into trouble in Matthew, Acts, and careful! There is a Split Rapture (Matthew 25:7-13) at that time. This is the rapture that modern day Christians MISTAKE for the Rapture of the Church. Hence, scores of books and articles and website postings like you have here at Five Doves are out there today that try ot make the above verses apply to a "purified" group of Christians "worthy" of getting "caught up", while the rest of the Body of Christ will have to stay on earth and go through the Tribulation.

***The Rapture of the Philadelphian wise virgins is Pre-Trib (Rev. 4:1). The Rapture of the Laodicean foolish virgins is Pre-Wrath (Rev. 7:14). To go in the first rank, we must "be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36).

Let me illustrate with an very recent example. Marvin Rosenthall, who has authored a book entitled "The Pre-Wrath Rapture", is a perfect example of a person who gets "fouled up" in their theology by not obeying II Tim 2:15. By taking Matthew 25:7-13 out of context and believing that the "Day of the Lord" was only a reference to the Second Advent at the end of the Tribulation, folks are now teaching that the Body of Christ will be dragged into the Tribulation and exposed to taking the dreaded Mark of the Beast (Rev 14:9-10). You see, the "Day of the Lord" is not only a reference to the Second Advent at the end of the Tribulation but "that day", in the Prophets, is applied to the birth of Christ (Isaiah 2:12, 4:2, and 7:14,18), the attack of Sennacherib (Isaiah 10:5-20), the defeat of Babylon by Persia (Jer 50,51), the Millenium (II Peter 3:8), and the White Throne Judgment (II Peter 3:10). Rosenthall got so messed up in Matthew that he knocked out the whole millenial reign of Christ (see Rev 20:1-6), the imprisonment of Satan (Rev 20:1-2), the attack of God and Magog (Rev 20:8), and the time the dead stayed dead (Rev 20:5) BEFORE the Judgment. He took II Peter 3:10 and applied it to the BEGINNING OF THE MILLENIUM, because it said "The day of the Lord",

***The Day of the Lord of II Peter 3:10 is the Millennium. On the first day of the Millennium, "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

and he had already LIMITED that expression to refer to events of Revelation chapters 16-19 just before the Millenium started. Rosenthall wound up with NO millenium; he was an Amillenialist. Armageddon ran right into the White Throne Judgment and Rosenthall has the Bride of Christ being caught up to marriage where she had to go through the Judgment Seat of Christ and a marriage ceremony and then get mounted for battle (Rev 19),in less than a year, with NO ONE BUT HER being caught up at the end of the tribulation. Moses and Elijah WERE caught up (Rev 11:12); they were NOT in the Bride. They were raptured, and none of them were IN CHRIST's BODY. They sang "The song of MOSES." That song (Rev 15:3) is Deuteronomy chapter 32. LOOK AT IT! That is the one that is quoted (Deut 32:36) in Hebrews 10:30!

The harvest of Revelation 14:15 PRECEDES the harvest of Revelation 14:18-20.

***True, but they take place on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium.

James's harvest is a harvest of GOOD fruit, NOT the fruit of the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy chapters 32-33. The Post-Tribulation appearance of Jesus Christ to His enemies as a Lamb SEATED on a throne, CANNOT match His appearance as seated on a HORSE (Rev 19:11-16). His enemies SEE Him long enough, BEFORE He comes, to gather troops to fight against Him,

***There are seven Jewish months between the catastrophe on the first day of the Millennium and the Second Advent (Ezek. 39:12).

at the place where they saw Him (Rev 19:19). READ IT READ IT READ IT!!!!

Jesus Christ is "SEATED on a cloud" in Revelation chpter 14 when the Post-Tribulation Rapture takes place. Those caught up at that time do NOT face the Judgment Seat of Christ,

***All saints face the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev. 11:18 says, "small and great."

and they marry no one. They are "GUESTS" at a wedding, and YOU WERE TOLD THIS in Matthew 22:10-11! Thus, when I say "Post-Tribulation", the terminology is not 100% accurate. It would be more accurate to say "somewhere right near the END of the tribulation" this rapture will occur. "Immediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS" is the wording (Matthew 24:29), but "those days" can be "shortened", or they can be delayed (Matt 24:22). In case it is not perfectly clear yet, there is a Rapture of the Church in I Thess 4:13-18 and I Cor 15:50-55 AND a Post-Trib Rapture of TRIBULATION SAINTS described by Matthew 24:31!

***The Pre-Trib Rapture is in I Thess. 4:13-18. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is in I Cor. 15:52. Both groups are called to the assembly for the Judgment Seat of Christ. The group that is already in Heaven is gathered together in Mt. 24:31 and Mk. 13:27. The Tribulation saints are gathered from the Earth in Mk. 13:27.

One thing is certain: Paul's conversion is a TYPE of that "appearance" of Christ (Acts 9:1-5), which explains his "born out of due time" statement in I Cor 15:8. This appearance is foreshadowed in places like Isaiah 60:1-3, Joel 3:16, and Psalm 50:2. It is God "shining forth, brighter than the sun" (Psalm 67:1, Matth 17:2, and Acts 22:6). Daniel has a run-in with the Lord like this (Daniel 10:5-11), and so does Ezekiel (Ezekiel 8:1-2). You see, Daniel, Ezekiel, and Paul were all JEWISH evangelists sent to preach to the GENTILES as well as the JEWS (see Daniel 2-5,7,9; Ezekiel 26-30, 38-39; and Romans 15-16). It will be 144,000 JEWS who preach to GENTILES in the Tribulation.

So, here we have ONE "chaste virgin" (II Cor 11:2) being caught up BEFORE the Mark of the Beast starts damning men (Rev 14:9-10), and she is caught up in the Spring (Song of Sol 2:10-13) by a voice tht sounds like a trumpet (I Thess 4:16) to the child of god but sounds to the unsaved like thunder (John 12:28-30 and Job 37:1-5). Every saint in that Bride is "called" by NAME (John 10:1-7) and is first "led OUT" (Exodus) of the world system (John 10:3) and then brought back in to earth BEHIND their Shepherd (John 10:4).

Now, on the other hand, we have a number of virgins (Song of Sol 6:8) in TWO SEPERATE GROUPS (Rev 7:4,9), UNLIKE the ONE BODY (Galatians 3:28 and Ephesians 3:1-8). They are being caught up AFTER the Mark of the Beast is required worldwide (Rev 13). These groups are caught up sometime around the Feast of Trumpets, when an angel blows the seventh trumpet, called "a great sound of a trumpet" in Matthew 24:31.

***The Tribulation saints are caught up on the Feast of Trumpets, before the first of the seven trumpet judgment sounds. They are called up by the silver trumpet between (Rev. 7:14) the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8:1).

This "sister" marries NO ONE when she is called to "Come up hither!" and she has to stand before the White Throne Judgment (See Rev 11:8 and Rev 20:11-14) for the Judgment Seat of Christ is PAST. She comes out of a FAITH-WORKS situation (see Matthew 25) requiring commandment keeping (Rev 12:17 and Rev 14:12) as well as faith in Jesus Christ. Works show up at the White Throne (Rev 20). And this is where the fur hits the fan with most folks. They cannot handle the Book because it disagrees with the "historical position" of their particular church affiliation. Throw your "historical position" out the window if it disagrees with God's Word (and I ONLY mean a King James version!). That is why God told you in the KJV in II Tim 2:15 to "study to shew thyself approved unto God..."

NO member of the Body of Christ (the Church) will ever be alive in a situation where saved Jews and saved Gentiles make up two seperate bodies of saints (Rev 7),

***The Tribulation saints of Rev. 7 are "of all nations" (v. 9). Among them are the 144,000 Jews. There is no difference in the Body of Christ.

and no member of the Body of Chriswt will be alive when a man can lose his salvation by taking a mark or number or name (Rev 13:1-18, 14:9-10). No member of the Body of Christ will be present when an angel preaches "another gospel" that Paul did NOT preach (Galatians 1:6-8)----and is BLESSED for doing it (Rev 14:6-7)----and no member of the Body of Christ will ever be told that his "enduring to the end" (Matthew 24:14) depends upon keeping the "COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST" (Revelation 12:17 and Rev 14:12).

***Rev. 12:17 speaks of the Jewish remnant: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This sounds like Nazarene Judaism. They keep all the old ways, but accept Christ as the Messiah.

Why is is that in the 20th century, the Lord's flock has been led astry and deceived into looking for ANYTHING except the One they were told to look for (Matth 24:42,44; Luke 12:35-37; Phillipians 3:20)? This is the work of its "shepherds", the "Biblical Scholars" who cut their teeth and teach from corrupt and apostate "Bible" versions. No wonder folks think the Church will go through the Tribulation!

I have studied some works that hold to SEVEN Raptures:
1. Jesus Christ in Acts chapter 1
2. Enoch in Genesis chapter 5
3. Elijah in II Kings chapter 2
4. The Body of Christ in I Thess chapter 4
5. Moses and Elijah in Revelation chapter 11
6. The 144,000 Jewish evangelists in Rev chapter 14
7. The great multitue of martyred GENTILES in Rev 7:9 who came (notice!) "OUT of great tribulation."

I cannot place an exact time bracket on either Rapture (Pre or Post). I have read some articles that suggested that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29) MIGHT refer to a rapture which PRECEDED the Advent by as much as a year, but this article could not prove it.

***I think the Pre-Trib Rapture is most likely next Pentecost and the Pre-Wrath Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007.

PERHAPS there is one appearnace to Tribulation saints in September (Feast of Trumpets), and those who are NOT "looking for Him" (Hebrews 9:28) are left (Matthew 25:10-12) to see a second appearance around July or August (Tu B'Av??) of the next year (Rev 1:7 and Rev 6:16). This scenario is not certain, therefore CANNOT be taught as doctrine. But, the following IS certain: the raptures described in Psalm 50:1-6, Isaiah 26:20-21, Revelation14:14-16, Hebrews 9:28, II Samuel 22:17-20, Psalm 1:6-19, and Matthew 24:40-42 are NOT connected with the New Testament body of Jesus Christ that is NOW on the earth!!! READ THESE VERSES!!! It seems that the reason there is so much confusion on this subject is because some saved theologian used Matthew 24:31 to drag the Church into some part of the Tribulation or some part of the "Great" Tribulation. Once any fundamentalist teaches the heresy now being taught at almost every major Christian school in America---that sinners are saved in the Tribulation exactly the way they are saved NOW (in the Church Age)----the door is open to get you into the Tribulation. Once you try to jam Revelation 12:17, Revelation 14:12, and Hebrews 3:14 into the Church Age "Gospel of the Grace of God" (Acts 20:24), you have opened Pandora's box!!!...
Kevin Drake
***I think all the elect of all three ages, The Age of the Gentiles, The Age of the Jews and The Age of the Church, are all saved by the grace of God. Sacrificing animals could never take away sins. They were to prefigure Christ's perfect sacrifice. OT saints were saved by looking forward to Christ's sacrifice, believing that he would come. NT saints are saved by looking back at Christ's sacrifice, believing that he has come. All salvation is of Christ.

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I admire your website greatly and believe you to be a woman of God. Coming from the position of Christian love, I wanted to make a comment concerning your theory of the seven good years followed by seven bad years. It seems to me Y2K will cause massive problems (more news stories come out everyday) along with the potential for a Mideast conflict and other forms of terrorism. How could the good years continue into the year 2000?

Moreover, what do you consider good? America and Western Europe are certainly prospering, but what of the massive suffering happening in third world countries and the persecution of Christians in Indonesia, Sudan, and elsewhere? I certainly don't think if such a prophecy of the seven years was truly valid that it would be Ameri and Euro-centered. The spiritual warfare and deception in America is on an almost unbelievable scale. All that is hidden is slowly being brought to light and even more horrific things for this country are planned.

I agree with your general estimations (even though I do not set a date), but sometimes we can interpolate too many scriptural references and apply them to biblical subjects when the relation exists only on the most generalized level.

The time is indeed close at hand. There is information about things soon to come in this very nation that is shocking. In every scenario conceivable, because of the interconnectedness of the world and the intentionality of evil men, America and other world powers are destined to fall very shortly. It is not conspiracy or panic; it is the truth.

Anyway, just wanted to insert some realism into the other-worldly discussions of the Rapture. I love the Lord and yearn ardently for His Return, but I also want people to prepare for rough going in case He does tarry.

> He is very near, breathing down our backs the fresh breath of Divine Utterance, new worlds waiting to be explored. I wait in "rapture", every pun intended, for His return. Now is the time He will bring all things to Himself.

A Fellow Worshipper of God's Eternal Beauty and Grace

My reply

> How could the good years continue into the year 2000?

Only by contrast will these seem to be the good years. The next seven will be the worst since the Flood. Things have been waxing worse and worse for quite awile now. At least we are still getting rain. Add famine to all the other woes during the bad years.

Dan 7:25 says, "And he (the False Prophet) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK TO CHANGE TIMES and laws." If there is too much trouble with the Y2K bug, I wonder if they will buy time to fix the code by rolling back the years for awhile.

> I also want people to prepare for rough going in case He does tarry.

I can't prepare, so I'm just hoping for the Rapture.

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Re: first incoming in p and c 279
You've treated the questioner with dignity and answered his questions scripturally and effectively. There will be many people today who will agree in faith for this individual to be set free of disbelief and disillusionment.

The Bible states Prov.11:30, "He who wins souls is wise."

Doubtless many others who are straddling the fence will read and obey the leading of the Holy Spirit, urging them to come to the Father through Jesus' sacrifice and love.

Hope Millie, Ed, David and your daughter and families are all doing well. Keep up the good work now in the last of the 11th hour. God bless and keep you well and strong and on the cutting edge of what the Holy Spirit is doing in these last days. Love

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