Pro and Con 289
Uploaded 3-22-99, AM
Incoming Email You haven't posted for several days and I was thinking and praying about you and Ed and your family. Hope you all are doing ok. No need to answer, I know you are busy....just wanted you to know you are missed and loved and prayed for!.
P.S.: I just had a mental picture of our poor little dog when she had puppies and was getting weary of all of them constantly yipping and yelping and pushing and shoving trying to nurse and hanging off her everytime she got up to take a step! haha You sure do a good job of "feeding" all of us with the milk and meat of the Word - bet you'll be glad to have us all "weaned" at the Rapture!!! haha Take care blessed sister! UNTIL...
My reply Thanks for the first smile of the day.
I told Ed that I'd better get something posted or someone would get concerned about our health. I posted P & C 288, then this came in while I was online. We are ok. A surprising effect of Ed's surgery is that his diabetes seems to be better. He has had several low-blood-sugar episodes lately. He was able to take one less pill after surgery than before, and may have to cut it again. Keeping his weight down may have something to do with it too.
I don't know about that "'weaned' at the Rapture" bit. I'll probably miss it like crazy--unless there are openings for humble teachers in Heaven. My daughter was afraid if she let the Lord lead her life, she'd have to write a book. She let out a sigh of relief when she found out that she didn't have to. But, me, I feel like I have studied all my life. I love to study, learn and write. That is the way the Lord made me. I learn as I type. I see new things, make new associations, as I go. I have a need to know--lots of things in many areas. I'm always searching, hungry for the least bit of deeper understanding. I can't wait to see what new information the Lord has for us in Heaven. It'll be exciting.
The Lord doesn't give insight on everything to any one person. I think this Internet is a wonderful forum for us all to pool what the Lord has helped each of us understand. We all profit thereby. I wouldn't know all I do now if it weren't for this interaction. Agape
Incoming Email with my answer interspersed Warning! Christians are being deceived about Daniel's 70th week! (by Steve Wohlberg)
Millions of Christians assume the rapture will occur prior to the the seven years of tribulation. WHAT MOST DO NOT REALIZE IS THAT THE ENTIRE "7 YEAR TRIBULATION THEORY" IS BASED UPON A FAULTY INTERPRETATION OF DANIEL 9:27....
...below. PLEASE READ IT, FOR JESUS CHRIST'S SAKE! Maybe God will use you to open the eyes of others, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!...
***From Marilyn: Father, I pray that you will open Steve's eyes to the truth, and that he will recognize that the scriptures teach a Pre-Trib Rapture and a seven-year Tribulation period. In Jesus' name, Amen.
The Bible says, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Daniel 9:27.
Have you ever heard of the "seven-year period of great tribulation"? The whole idea is rooted in two words of the above sentence! The two words are "one week." Supposedly, that period of "one week" applies to the final seven-year period of great tribulation at the end of time....
***Although shortened 220 days (Dan. 8:14), it applies to the final seven-years of Tribulation at the end of this AGE. TIME lasts for another 1000 years afterward. The shortened Tribulation is the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14. It includes both the time the Jews can sacrifice and the time that they can't because the False Prophet desecrates the temple. It covers the end of this age and ends on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The rest of the full seven-year period falls in the Millennium. At the Judgment of the Nations, Christ takes dominion away from Satan after the full seven-year period ends. At that time, Armageddon breaks out.
According to the popular interpretation of Daniel 9:27, the "he" refers to a future Antichrist who will eventually make a covenant, or peace treaty, with the Jews during the final seven years of tribulation. In the "midst" of this tribulation, this Antichrist will cause "the sacrifice … to cease." In order for the sacrifices to cease, they must have been restarted. Therefore, according to countless modern interpreters, there must be a rebuilt third Jewish temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.
***Rev. 11:1,2 says, "measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." It sure sounds to me like the temple is there as Moses and Elijah begin their ministry at the beginning of the Tribulation.
A popular Christian magazine called Endtime reflects this current view: "Three and one-half years after the confirming of the covenant [by the Antichrist] the Jews’ Third Temple must be completed and sacrifice and oblation be in progress. We know this because Daniel 9:27 states that in the middle of the seven years the Antichrist will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to stop."
Much of the Christian world is now locked in a fierce debate about whether Jesus will return for His church before the 7 years (the pre-tribulation view), in the midst of the 7 years (the mid-tribulation view), or at the end of the 7 years (the post-tribulation view). Yet by far the most explosive question, which few seem to be asking, should be "Is and end-time ‘seven-year period of great tribulation’ really the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:27 in the first place?"
***Yes, it is. That is why few ask your question.
Historically, Protestant scholars have not applied Daniel 9:27 to a future period of tribulation at all! Neither have they applied the "he" to the Antichrist! Rather, they applied it to Jesus Christ. Notice what the world-famous Bible commentary written by Matthew Henry says about Daniel 9:27: "By offering himself a sacrifice once and for all he [Jesus] shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices." Another famous Bible commentary, written by Adam Clarke, says that during the "term of seven years," Jesus would "confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind." Finally, another well-respected old commentary declares: "He shall confirm the covenant—Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him."
***You can cite all the words of man you want. I don't go by what man says about the Scripture, but what Scripture itself says. Man can err. God can't. If you follow what man says without proving it right or wrong by Scripture, you can be led astray.
The following 10 points provide logical and convincing evidence that the "one week" spoken of in Daniel 9:27 does not apply to any future seven-year period of tribulation at all. Rather, this great prophetic period has already been definitely fulfilled in the past!
***Sure it has. Historians just forgot to record a few things. You say that the seventieth week of Daniel was from 27 to 34 AD. Rev. 8:8-10 says, "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire (an asteroid) was cast into the sea (Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5; Ezek. 38:20): and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died: and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters." Did those things take place between 27 and 34 AD? the time during which you think these things were all fulfilled? Was the bottomless pit opened between 27 and 34 AD? Was there a catastrophe so bad that it took Israel seven months to bury the dead? Is there yet a place called "The valley of Hamon-gog," where those dead are buried? (Ezek. 39:11,12). Has Christ yet returned? No? Well, he will return within this seven-year period you do not think is still future. Have the saints been caught up to Heaven? No? They will return with Christ at his Second Advent within this seven-year period you tell me is already past. Does that past fulfillment of yours hold water? No. The prophetic scriptures all attest to the fact that there is a future seven-year period that will be worse than any seven-year period since there was a nation.
***Dan. 12:1-4 says, "AND at that time (when the False Prophet 'shall come to his end,' Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament: and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
***Are you still going to insist that all this took place between 27 and 34 AD? Was that the "time of the end? Did the final millennium begin then? Did many run to and fro? Was knowledge increased? If so, why do we have airplanes and computers today that they did not have between 27 and 34 AD? or even in 1034 AD? Why didn't the end of the Millennium come in 1034 AD? Why hasn't the Great White Throne Judgment already taken place since you must start the 1000 years in 34 AD, according to your belief that the seven-year Tribulation was fulfilled from 27 to 34 AD? Don't you see how ludicrous your statement is? It upsets the logical flow of prophecy.
The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." This period applies to one complete, sequential block of time. This prophecy would start during the Persian period and would end during the time of the Messiah.
***Did the things in Rev. 8:8,10 (the asteroid impacts) take place then?
Logic requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!
***That is man's kind of reasoning. God evidently thinks differently. He left the 114 years of the Servitudes out of the 480 Theocratic Years in I Kings 6:1. He left out the periods during which Israel was out of fellowship with Him. God's clock concerning Israel stops when Israel is out of fellowship, and she definitely was out of fellowship after the Crucifixion in 30 AD. If God's clock stopped when Israel was out of fellowship during the Servitudes, how can you think that God's clock didn't stop after the Crucifixion?
***The Exodus was in AH 2513 (BC 1530). AH 2513 + 480 + 114 = AH 3107 (BC 936), when the Temple was begun. A list of the Servitudes is at http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/chron.html.
It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week. No hint of this gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?
***The Jews were fooled by the gap between Christ's two comings also. Many prophecies have both a near and a far fulfillment. God's clock stopped when Israel crucified the Lord. The last seven years are to run at the end of this age. They are the trial "which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). A "wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT" (Eccl. 8:5). The seven years are JUDGMENT added after 6000 years of TIME for man's test (being mortal and knowing both good and evil) are complete. The other 1000 years of TIME is the Millennium.
Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of tribulation, or about any Antichrist.
***Daniel 9:27 shows that there is a final seven-year period. There has to be to make up the full 490 years of the "Seventy weeks" of years (Dan. 9:24). Rev. 11:3 gives us the first 1260 days. Rev. 12:6 gives us the second 1260 days that make up these seven years.
***The word "Antichrist" is not used in Revelation, either. The terms there are the "beast" and "another beast" (Rev. 13:11), which is the "false prophet" (Rev. 20:10). The term "Antichrist" is not used in any of the Old Testament, either. It's use is confined to First and Second John.
The focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Modern interpreters have applied "the people of the prince" who would come to "destroy the city and the sanctuary" (verse 26) to the Antichrist. Yet the text does not say this. In the past, that sentence has been applied to the Romans, who under Prince Titus did "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in A.D. 70.
***The people of Christ, the apostles, disciples and Christian believers did not "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in 70 AD. You yourself know that "Titus did 'destroy the city and the sanctuary' in A.D. 70." He was a Roman and not a disciple of Christ.
"He shall confirm the covenant." Jesus Christ came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Romans 15:8. Nowhere in the Bible is Antichrist ever said to make or confirm a covenant with anyone! The word "covenant" always applies to the Messiah, never to the Antichrist!
***You say it "ALWAYS applies to the Messiah"? Well, what will you do with Isa. 28:15,18? It definitely does not apply to the Messiah. It says, "Because ye have said, We have made a COVENANT WITH DEATH (the False Prophet, Rev. 6:8), and with hell (Satan) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves....your COVENANT WITH DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."
"He shall confirm the covenant with many." Jesus said, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." Matthew 26:28. Jesus used the same words, because He knew that He was fulfilling Daniel 9:27!
***Dan. 9:27 says, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." Are you telling me that the new covenant that came into effect at the Crucifixion was only a seven-year covenant in effect until 34 AD? or even 38 AD? Then are we lost with no hope? Why was the New Testament written after the covenant was no longer in effect? Why is the new covenant even mentioned in the New Testament since it was not in effect? Your position is absurd.
"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."
***The sacrifice and the oblation did not cease between 27 and 34 AD. However, in the middle of the seven years, the "Wicked" one, "whose coming is after the working of Satan," will "as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4-9). This will "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."
The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34. After three and a half years of ministry, Christ died in A.D. 31, "in the midst [middle] of the week."
***I think Christ died in 30 AD. It fits all the criteria. The end of the 70th week was NOT in 34 AD. When the still future 70th week of Daniel is over, "THAT DETERMINED shall be poured upon the desolate (lit., desolator)" (Dan. 9:27). Dan. 11:36 explains, "And the king (little horn) shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for THAT THAT IS DETERMINED shall be done."
At the moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was rent [torn] in twain from the top to the bottom." Matthew 27:51. This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices had at that moment ceased to be of value. The Great Sacrifice had been offered!
***Dan. 8:11-14 says, "Yea, he ('a little horn') magnified himself even to the prince (Christ) of the host, and BY HIM (the little horn) the DAILY SACRIFICE WAS TAKEN AWAY, and the place of his sanctuary (on an asteroid) was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice BY REASON OF TRANSGRESSION, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard...How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be CLEANSED." If the seventieth week of Daniel started in 27 AD, was the sanctuary cleansed 2300 days later? No.
***By your assumption that the seventieth week of Daniel took place in 27-34 AD, you are in effect cutting end-time prophecy into floating puzzle pieces with no place to fit into the larger picture. Is that your intent? You owe it to yourself to reconsider. You do not really want to do injustice to the Word of God, do you? We are living near the end of this age. You may not have much time to get this straight before the Rapture takes place and the Tribulation begins. The Rapture could take place this year and the Tribulation begin in 2001. Would you please take another good look at what Scripture says before it is too late?
***Concerning the asteroid Satan lives on, Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? and whom hast thou here, that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he that heweth him out a sepulchre ON HIGH, and that graveth AN HABITATION FOR HIMSELF IN A ROCK? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq, Rev. 18:21): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."
"For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Jesus plainly applied this "abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70.
***But, you say the seventieth week ended in "A.D. 34." Aren't you a little inconsistent?
Jesus told His 12 disciples, "When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies [the Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near." Luke 21:20, emphasis added. Those disciples did "see" those very events. Christ’s very last words to the Pharisees from inside the second temple were, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:38. Thus Daniel’s prophecy about Jerusalem becoming "desolate" was exactly fulfilled in A.D. 70! Jesus understood this perfectly.
***According to your timetable, "desolate" should have been fulfilled by 34 AD. You said, "At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34."
Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). From A.D. 27 to A.D. 34, the disciples went only "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6. At the end of the 70 weeks, in the year A.D. 34, Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts chapter 7). Then the gospel began to go to the Gentiles. In Acts chapter 9, Saul became Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles." Romans 11:13. Then in Acts chapter 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing that it was now time to preach the gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10:1-28). Read also Acts 13:46.
The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point, the events of the 70th week have already been fulfilled in the past! The following eight words found in Daniel 9:27: "confirm...covenant ...many...midst...sacrifice...cease...abominations...desolate": all find a perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and in early Christian history.
***Perfect??? Between 27 AD and 34 AD??? I don't think so.
One reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its leaders and scholars failed to correctly interpret the 70-week prophecy. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the Messiah who died in the midst of the 70th week. The same thing is happening today! Amazingly, sincere Christian scholars are now misinterpreting the very same prophecy.
***Well, I know one that is. His name is Steve Wohlberg. Dan. 9:26,27 says, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (karath, killed), but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall (future tense) come (after the Messiah is dead) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, 40 years after the Messiah was dead); and the end thereof shall be (future tense) with a flood (was there a flood in 70 AD?), and unto the end of the war DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED. And he (certainly not the Messiah, who had been dead 40 years before Jerusalem was burned) shall confirm the covenant (of peace) with many for one week, and in the midst of the week he (not the Messiah that's been dead these many years) shall (future tense) cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (idols, not in 70 AD, either) he (actually, the False Prophet) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (of the age), and that DETERMINED ("DESOLATIONS") shall be poured upon the desolate (lit., desolator," i.e., not the Messiah, but the False Prophet).
The entire "seven-year period of great tribulation" theory is a grand illusion. It may go down in history as the biggest evangelical misinterpretation of the 20th century! It can be compared to a big, fat hot air balloon. Inside, there is no substance, only air. As soon as Daniel 9:27 is understood correctly and the pin of truth is inserted, the balloon will pop. The fact is that no text in the Bible teaches any "seven-year period of great tribulation." If you look for it, you will end up like Ponce de Leon, who tirelessly searched for the famous fountain of youth but never found it.
***As for seven years, in Lev. 26, the Lord says, "I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins." That is seven years (Rev. 12:6,14).
***Mt. 24:21 says that there "shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE." You said, "The 70th week was from A.D. 27 to 34." If the above happened in 27 to 34 AD, nothing worse ever happened before or can ever happen again. Yet, Noah's Flood killed all but eight people before that time. Worse than that did not take place between 27-34 AD. Since that, we have had two world wars; the atomic bomb was dropped. Did worse than that take place between 27-34 AD? Ezek. 38:20 says, "and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE...every wall shall fall to the ground." Did worse than that happen between 27-34 AD? In Rev. 16:3, "every living soul died in the sea." Did worse than that happen between 27-34 AD? Did the "king of terrors" (Job 18:14) take place then? When it happens, "it shall be a vexation only to understand the report" (Isa. 28:19). It is "a consumption, even DETERMINED upon the WHOLE EARTH" (Isa. 3:28:22). What was worse that happened to the whole earth in 27-34 AD? Go back and see where the word DETERMINED appears before. This shows what 'THAT DETERMINED" refers to.
May Jesus save His Church from "strong delusion" in this critical hour, is my sincere prayer.
***Mine is that you may be saved from your "strong delusion" in this critical hour. We could be just about two months from the Rapture. Repent and get ready, just in case. Agape
Incoming Email I couldn't help but notice that the new date that you are hoping the Rapture will take place falls on a Friday.
Do you think this may contradict The Revelation of Jesus Christ, when the Apostle John was immediately in the spirit ON THE LORD'S DAY?
I thought that this clearly stated that the Rapture will happen on a Sunday??
Hoping to hear from you again. Your friend in Christ Jesus
My reply Last year, I thought Rev. 1:10's "Lord's day" had to be Sunday. However, since last Pentecost was the last Sivan 6 that falls on Sunday before the 40 years of probation are up, I had to take another look at it.
It appears in the Preview of the Rapture section, therefore, it cannot refer to the millennial Day of the Lord.
However, it may refer to "one of the days (plural, i.e., two Raptures) of the Son of man" of Lu. 17:22. Verse 26 says, "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural) of the Son of man." Verse 28 also mentions "the days of Lot." The days of Noah represent the Pre-Trib Rapture. The days of Lot represent the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Fire falls that same day.
Incoming Email I've been mulling over the differences between the words "redemption" and "salvation". Although they often are used interchangeably by Christians, they are different in concept. Redeem essentially means to regain possession or to pay off, as in mortgaged or pawned. Salvation means to save, with an element of rescue or deliverance in the dictionary's alternate meaning. Doubtless this could be further elucidated.
There is no doubt that many Christians are engaged in twisting meanings to make them fit preconceptions. Of course, when people insist that they have figured out something while stretching meanings to enforce a "fit" they inevitably result with egg on the face.
Nevertheless, we need to have compassion for them since most of the time it's simply a reflection of their longing to be with the Lord and to hear Him say, "Well done, faithful servant". I'd like to experience that also, as soon as possible, while making sure that I have remained and worked to the best of my ability until His appointed time. Devoted Christians do seem weird to the world, since the unsaved focus on remaining here as long as possible while we, as strangers in a foreign country, pine for our real home with our Father and our Savior along with our loved ones who already are there.
In any case, hopefully 1999 truly is our year of redemption and salvation. God bless you
My reply Thanks. Well said.
Pro and Con 290 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: email@example.com
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960
© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee