Pro and Con 298

Uploaded 4-6-99

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David Hill wrote:
"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that God physically showed a part of Himself, to everyone on planet earth, through extraordinary means, during the NIGHT of January 23, 1999."

"Suddenly, and unexpectedly, before the eyes of the world, an INCREDIBLY BRIGHT "OBJECT" BURST onto the scene (in the gamma ray end of the known light spectrum), in the furthest reaches of the universe. As previously mentioned, it occured on January 23, 1999 (6 Shevat 5759 on the Hebrew Calendar)."

"Then, just as suddenly as it appeared,... it disappeared. The only thing left was the "afterglow" of the most intense display of light, energy, and power, ever seen by mankind. Its sheer force has very conservatively been estimated at one million billion billion billion Hiroshima bombs."

"Ask yourself this: Who/What else contains MORE LIGHT, MORE ENERGY, and MORE POWER than the ENTIRE UNIVERSE PUT TOGETHER - and it gave this off in only 40 seconds - if not GOD?"

"The scientific world is "hoping" that the display was aimed directly at earth [yeah, right, like an explosion in free-space only occurs in ONE direction!], failing which, it completely destroys all the current evolutionary models for gamma ray bursts. Simply put, exceedingly too much light was "given off/displayed", at previously unthought of distances, to support current evolutionary-type models, if the explosion occured equally, in all directions. Thus, the scientific world is going out of their way, in an attempt to "prove" a "one-sided explosion"!"

"Either way, it would still have to be God, since an explosion of that type would have to be "designed/pre-planned" to do so, neither one of which fits comfortably anywhere into so-called evolutionary theories."

"January 23, 1999 + 120 DAYS = May 22, 1999 (Judgment AFTER Pentecost.)"

"As we know, the "120" is in reference to GOD'S PRONOUNCED JUDGEMENT ON THE WORLD [120 years], after which came the Flood."

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"Right: The gamma ray and optical counterpart burst is near the constellation Corona Borealis."
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Ah, I don't know if the picture will come through on this post or not, but I felt compelled to share something with you all. I don't know exactly what, if any, effect this gamma ray burst will have, but I was shocked to find out exactly where this burst occured, especially after reading Eric's Take on it. If you skipped the quotes above you should really go back and reread them again, before you read the rest of this post. And I hope Eric forgive me for quoting so much of his material.

The comment above (in between the lines) which I got off the Astronomy Magazine site is misleading, to say the least. You see, this gamma ray burst, which one way or another is coming STRAIGHT at us just happens to be in the Constellaion of Bootes. First let me quote from Bullingers book:

"He is pictured as a man walking rapidly, with a SPEAR in his right hand sickle in his left hand. The Greeks called him Bo-o-tes, which is from the Hebrew root BO (to come), meaning 'THE COMING.' It is referred to in Ps xcvi.13: "For He cometh, For He cometh to judge the earth; He shall judge the world in righteousness, And the people with His truth." It is probable that his ancient name was Arcturus (as referred to in Job ix.9), for this is the name of the brightest star, (in the left knee). Arcturus means 'HE COMETH'...The star (in the spearhead) is named Al Katurops, which means, 'THE BRANCH TREADING UNDERFOOT' The star (just below the waist on his right side) is called Mirac, or Mizar, or Izar. Mirac means 'COMING FORTH AS A ARROW'; Mizar, or Izar, means 'the preserver, guarding. The star(in left leg) is called Muphride, i.e. 'WHO SEPARATES' The star (in the head) is named Nekkar, i.e. 'THE PIERCED' (Zech.xii.10), which tells us that this coming judge is the One who was pierced [by a spear!]. Another Hebrew name is Merga, 'WHO BRUISES' This brings us back to Gen iii.15...[and] to the final coming of the great Judge and Harvester to reap the harvest of the earth. This was the vision which was afterwards shown to John (Rev. xiv.15,16), when he says, "I looked; and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, 'Thrust in thy sickle and reap; for the time is come for Thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.' And He that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."

Bullinger also provides a note on the name Arcturus:

"Aratus calls him, 'Arctophylax', i.e., 'the guardian of Arctos', the flock of the greater fold [big dipper]"

My note on this name by Aratus is that 'the guardian' guards the fold with a 'plylax' which I believe is where we get the phrase phalanx from, which is an infantry line armed with LANCES, or in other words a SPEAR. It would appear that the Good Shepherd has heard the calls of his flock that are being threatened by the Bear and the devouring Lion, just like David long ago. Concerning GOD'S SPEAR:

Habakkuk 3
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the Heavens, and the earth was full of His praise. And His brightness was as the LIGHT; He had horns coming out of His hands: and there was the hiding of His POWER. Before Him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at His feet. He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting...Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? Was thine anger against the rivers? Was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy CHARIOTS OF YESHUA? The bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy WORD. Selah. Thous didst cleave the earth with rivers. The nountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high. The Sun and Moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine ARROWS they went, and at the SHINING OF THY GLITTERING SPEAR." (see also Job 39:23 and Nahum 3:3)

You see, the actual location of this Gamma Ray Burst, inside the Constellation of Bootes (the location of which the scientists don't want to talk about)is right smak dab on the very Tip of the Spear in the hand of Bootes, the Coming Judge. This is not a joke, and it is not an exaggeration. If this is not a SIGN from our Father, than I don't know what is. This is also, alot like my post on the Bull's Eye, that I received exactly 40 days before this burst occured. The coincidencs are scary. Habakkuk 3 was one of the verses that kept coming up that night. We would be the Arrows, and YESHUA would be the GLITTERING SPEAR!...
And one more thing I would like to say. When I asked the Father to confirm the timing of the Rapture for me, He gave me Ps 77:17. The last couple of verse in that chapter is : "Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron." It is so obvious, that I totally missed it. This is anytime between Passover and Pentecost...

My reply

> "Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron." It is
> so obvious, that I totally missed it. This is anytime between Passover and Pentecost.

The quote is Psa. 77:20. Indirectly then, since Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits are already past, what you are saying is that if the Rapture is to be this year, it could be this Pentecost. I agree, but does this passage tell it?

Let's think this through. Things that happened to Israel are types, "ensamples," of what will happen to us at the end of this age (I Cor. 10:11). Job 11)6 says, "the secrets of wisdom, that they are double (like carbon copies) to that which is!" The word "like" is symbolic language. Very often "like" or "as" do point to symbolism hidden in an ordinary sounding statement. Jesus is the good shepherd, and we are his sheep. We are his people too. Moses means "taken out of the water." Aaron means "lofty, mountain of strength, teacher, or teaching." That's pretty good.

What else is in Psa. 77? "I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times...my spirit made diligent search. Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more? Is his mercy clean gone for ever: doth his PROMISE fail for evermore?" (77:5-8). The answer is no, not one of his promises will fail. "I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High (Jesus Christ). I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old" (77:10,11).

The years of Jesus Christ were 33 1/2. It is interesting that 5278 (1517, Martin Luther's theses) + 450 (Acts 13:20,21) = 5728 (1967/8, Sign of the End of the Age) + 33.5 = 5761.5 (2001.5, near the Feast of Weeks on 5-28-2001, the beginning of the Tribulation).

What is in Psa. 78? "GIVE ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the GENERATION TO COME the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done....That the GENERATION TO COME might know them....He...smote all the firstborn in Egypt...But made his own people to GO FORTH (as he told Noah to 'Go forth' out of the Ark) like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock....And he brought them to the border of HIS SANCTUARY, EVEN TO THIS MOUNTAIN, WHICH HIS RIGHT HAND (Jesus Christ) HAD PURCHASED."

Sinai represented Heaven. "And they saw the God of Israel (YHVH): and there was under his feet as it were (symbolic language) a paved work of a sapphire stone (sapphire means 'dear to Saturn'), and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body), in his clearness" (Ex. 24:10).

Since the Pre-incarnate Christ figuratively brought them to the border of HIS SANCTUARY, i.e., Saturn, on Sivan 1 (Ex. 19:1), and "the glory of the LORD (YHVH) abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it SIX DAYS (Sivan 1-6): and the SEVENTH DAY (Sivan 7) he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud....And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him UP INTO THE MOUNT" (Ex. 24:16-18).

This makes Sivan 7, May 22, a definite possibility. It also agrees with my study of the correct day of Pentecost (Pro and Con 256) the evening before Ed and I found ourselving driving in the end of the most gorgeous rainbow we ever saw in our lives. The only reason I went back to Sivan 6 was because the Tribulation seems to start on Sivan 6. The Jews keep it both days, so that may not be an obstacle. In 30 AD, Acts 2:1 says, "when the day of Pentecost was fully come." This is when the Holy Spirit descended on the Church. Fully come may indicate Sivan 7. This would put our trip to Shabbtai (Saturn) on Shabbat (Saturday Sabbath), an appropriate day since Jesus was born on the Sabbath and is Lord of the Sabbath. A thought just occurred to me. Israel is 10 hours ahead of me here in California. Sivan 7 to them is Sivan 6 to me. Both are considered Pentecost. That could be by design.

Re: Sivan 7. Josephus said, "on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth...When a week of weeks has passed over AFTER this sacrifice (which weeks contain forty and nine days,) on the fiftieth day, which is Pentecost...they bring to God a loaf, made of wheat flour, of two tenth deals, with leaven (Ant., III.X.5). His "AFTER" Nisan 16 makes it seem that we should not use inclusive reckoning. Counting this way, Pentecost is Sivan 7. He said, "a week of weeks," instead of a week of Sabbaths. He seems to just mean 49 days (7 x 7). Also important is the word "after." This sounds like the omer is not counted by inclusive reckoning. Then, in 30 AD, Pentecost could have been on Monday, Sivan 7, May 29, my daughter's birthday.

This may not be meaningful to you, but it is to me, because my son was born on April 6, which is both the day of the Crucifixion and the day of the Second Advent. My birthday is "the thirteenth day of the twelfth month," of December instead of the Jewish Adar, but it ties in with the day the Jews slew their enemies (Esth. 3:13; 9:1,5) and falls on Hanukkah in some years. In 1998, it was on Kislev 24. Haggai 2:18 tells us to consider this day and upward. It was "the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid. Verse 19 says, "from this day will I bless you." I don't base anything on this, only on Scripture, but I pay attention and praise the Lord, who had all these in his control.

Of Lev. 23:15,16 Mr. Hoeh said, "when the Jews translated the passage, they were forced to render it correctly: "And ye shall count unto you from the morrow" (Nisan 16) "after the day of rest" (first day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15), " from the day" (Nisan 16) "that ye brought the sheaf of the waving" (Firstfruits, Nisan 16); "seven weeks" (49 days) "shall there be COMPLETE" (i.e., without counting Nisan 16)." Verse 16: "even unto the morrow after the seventh week shall ye number fifty days."

Things do seem to fit Sivan 7, May 22, 1999. At the Transfiguration, Mk. 9:1-3 says, "some of them that stand here , which shall not taste of death (as at the Rapture), till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. And AFTER SIX DAYS (i.e., on the 7th) Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, an John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them." There may be a double meaning to "after six days." This may be a clue that the Rapture will be on Sivan 7 in the 6001st year (after the seventh millennium of man's test being mortal and knowing good and evil has begun).

Eve was taken out of Adam's side on Friday, but it could have been the last thing the Lord did before the seventh day, and his rest, began. Hebrews 4:1 says, "LET us therefore fear, lest, a PROMISE being left us of entering into HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said." This also points to the seventh day.

II Thess. 1:6,7,11 says, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God ro recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled REST with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED (at the Rapture) from heaven with his mighty angels....Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you WORTHY OF THIS CALLING."

Rest is suggested in Psa. 149:5's "new song." It says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds." The seventh-day Sabbath is the day of rest.

Samuel means "Name of God." I wonder if it is significant to us that he told Saul, "SEVEN DAYS shalt thou tarry, till I COME TO THEE" (I Sam. 10:8).

Job 7:1 says, "IS there not an APPOINTED TIME to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?" Ex. 21:2 says, "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, SIX YEARS shall he serve: and IN THE SEVENTH he shall GO OUT free for nothing." This too may have a double application and indicate Sivan 7, 5759, in the 6001st year.

This seems to rule out Mt. 24:20 as applying to the Rapture. It must show that the middle of the Tribulation will not be in winter, nor on the Sabbath day. I figure that Mid-Trib will be Cheshvan 23, 5765, our Friday, Nov. 25, 2005, neither in winter nor on the Sabbath day.

Guess I'll have to revise my Home Page again. This has been a long learning process. That is why my first book took 23 years to write and was completely rewritten seven times. Even so, I know more now than I knew then. The Lord is always ready to show us something else when we need to know it.

> "January 23, 1999 + 120 DAYS = May 22, 1999 (Judgment AFTER Pentecost.)"
> > "As we know, the "120" is in reference to GOD'S PRONOUNCED JUDGEMENT ON
> THE WORLD [120 years], after which came the Flood."

Sivan 7, 5759, our Sat., May 22, 1999, agrees with your 120-day count from Shevat 6 (Sat., Jan. 23, 1999) (counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning), but it seems to hit Pentecost, when fully come, on the nose.

His reply

David Hill wrote:
> Indirectly then, since Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits are already past, what
> you are saying is that if the Rapture is to be this year, it could be this Pentecost.

[Yeah. There are a couple of more dates that I am going to be watching on before then, but definately Pentecost is the most likely date.]

> "I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High (Jesus Christ). I will
> remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders of old" (77:10,11).
> The years of Jesus Christ were 33 1/2.

[Yeah, you are absolutely right here. I hadn't picked up on that.] > What is in Psa. 78? "GIVE ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of
> my mouth. I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old: ....That
> the GENERATION TO COME might know them....He...smote all the firstborn in Egypt...But made
> his own people to GO FORTH (as he told Noah to 'Go forth' out of the Ark) like sheep, and
> guided them in the wilderness like a flock....And he brought them to the border of HIS
> SANCTUARY, EVEN TO THIS MOUNTAIN, WHICH HIS RIGHT HAND (Jesus Christ) HAD PURCHASED."

[Yeah, see now Psalms 77 and 78 were written by Asaph. He wrote about 7 or 8 psalms. So I looked through them awhile back to see exactly what time frame he was refering to, and I came to the same conclusion as you did. It could have started at Passover, but I don't think that you could extend his view much beyond Pentecost, while they were at Sinai. Actually, I think ALL of Asaphs psalms are connected to endtime events, one way or another. Some day I was planning on studying just his psalms, kinda like how they do with different apostles- the theology of paul, peter, john etc. Well, I would think that Asaphs Theology would be enlightening, to say the least.]

> Sinai represented Heaven. "And they saw the God of Israel (YHVH): and there was under his
> feet as it were (symbolic language) a paved work of a sapphire stone (sapphire means
> 'dear to Saturn'), and as it were the body of heaven (heavenly body), in his clearness"
> (Ex. 24:10).

[Yeah, I agree here as well. Peters and other authors believe that the Theocracy will be reestablished at Mt. Sinai in secret, during the last half of the trib.]

> Things do seem to fit Sivan 7, May 22, 1999.

[Yes, they do, and we don't have much longer to wait now. I wanted to tell you something else. A couple of months ago, the Lord told me that the first epistle of Timothy also contains a clue to the timing of the Rapture. At first thought this doesn't seem to stand out any more than any other Epistle. But then when you realize that Timothy was Bishop at EPHESUS, when paul wrote that letter from LAODACEA, then its like paul was standing at the very door of the Rapture, describing the current conditions and the events that would soon take place, and he sent them in a letter back through time 2000 years to Timothy, who kept them, and ended up passing them back into the future 2000 years to were we are today. Well, I tell you I have read that thing front to back and back to front etc. And the only reference I could find to a time frame is when Paul says, "Don't muzzle the Ox while he is treading out the corn." He is quoting Deut. (applying it to Bible Teachers) and the word that is used for ox, is also basically the same word for Bull, as in Taurus the Bull, and of course the Sun is in Taurus at Pentecost. Also, the other verse, "Don't yoke an ox and ass together" I believe that the Ass represents the Churh (It does in the Constelations) and I believe that the Ox would represent Israel. Hence, after the Rapture, Israel would be 'unmuzzled']

Your brother in Yeshua, david

My reply

> word that is used for ox, is also basically the same word for Bull, as
> in Taurus the Bull, and of course the Sun is in Taurus at Pentecost.

It is amazing how many subjects one must know something about to get all the shades of meaning of the Bible. I grabbed "The Zodiac Conspiracy: God's Hidden Message In The Stars Revealed," by F. Chris Patrick. He says that Taurus represents a large, fierce wild ox called a "RIMU" in Hebrew. In Job. 39:9, it is translated "unicorn." The brightest star in this constellation is AL DEBARAN. It means the leader or governor. The second is EL NATH. He says that is Arabic for the wounded or slain. I recognize that EL means God in Hebrew. These two stars alone suggest Christ. Another star is WASAT, which in Arabic means the foundation, or appointed to rule. Christ is appointed to rule.

In Taurus are the Pleiades, which the Hebrews called CHIMA, the accumulation. The Pleiades were associated with Noah's Flood (as is the Rapture). It is astonishing to see that the astronomical symbol for Taurus is a single boat on the surface of the Earth.

Another cluster is THE HYADES in the left eye of the bull. It means the congregated in Hebrew, suggesting that we are the apple of his eye. That fits with another star, PALILICUM, which means belonging to the judge. That fits us. We are the congregated that belong to Christ, who is the judge.

Since Christ is called "the Sun of righteousness" in Mal. 4:2, it seems appropriate for the literal sun to be in Taurus at Pentecost. I'm glad you told me that.

Saturn will be in Aries, the Ram, or lamb. That completes the picture. After the Rapture, Christ is depicted as "a Lamb as it had been slain" in Rev. 5:6. With him are those "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." We sing that he is worthy, "hast redeemed us" and "hast made us unto our God kings and priests" (Rev. 5:9,10). At that time, we will be "the congregated."

Heb. 12:22-24 says, "ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant." The next verse is a warning: "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they ESCAPED not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we ESCAPE, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven." Agape

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FWD: NPR on Apocalypse

Marilyn: Have you listened to this?
"James D. Tabor" wrote:
Ira Glass with NPR's "This American Life" did their one hour show on the Apocalypse this weekend. I spoke with him over an hour and got only five minutes, but I think the show is worth listening to on the whole, covers a lot of ground, including Clyde Lott and his Red Heifers, Marilyn Agee and her date setting, etc. I specifically asked that I not be featured about Waco but about Apocalypticism in general, and I gave him some of my best theoretical stuff, but you know how that sort of thing goes--Waco will always be sex, guns, and suicide it seems. Anyway, if you missed the broadcast and want to hear it it is easy to do so from their web site, provided you have some up dated version of RealPlayer (which can be downloaded free if you don't). This current program is featured on their opening page.

James Tabor

(WBEZ Chicago, "This American Life,") http://www.thislife.org/

My reply

Thanks for telling me it had run. I have no way of listening to it, tried to DL Real Player. My system is too old. Don't have a clue as to what they used. Hope you can hear it....

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Marilyn wrote:
> Abraham was 99 when the Lord CAME to him. Gen. 17:1 says, "AND when Abram was ninety years
> old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk
> before me, and be thou perfect." I think we would be smart to take that as advise as to
> us right now.

Yes, and Abram is commanded to WALK before God. The word for WALK is 'halak' (Strongs 01980) which is used as WALK in a few other places in Genesis that are interesting. It is used first of God walking in the garden (Gen 3:8), then of Enoch who walked with God (Gen 5:22, 24), then of Noah who also walked with God (Gen 6:9) then finally of Abram who is commanded to walk before God (Gen 17:1).

Marilyn, This is absolutely too much. You can call it coincidence but I think something else is going on here. I realize that the writings of Josephus are not inspired, neither are the Lexicon numbering schemes but for the heck of it, I did a lookup on the Strongs number (01999 for Hebrew) and (1999 for Greek) and found something interesting:

Hebrew: 01999 hamullah
1) rushing, roaring, rainstorm, roaring sound, rushing sound (This word appears in Jeremiah 11:16 and Ezekiel 1:24)

Greek: 1999 episustasis {ep-ee-soo'-stas-is}
1) a hostile banding together or concourse 1a) to excite to a riotous gathering of the people to make a mob 1b) a troublesome throng of persons seeking help, counsel, comfort (This word appears twice in Acts 24:12 and 2 Cor 11:28)

I couldn't help but think of the Miracle in 66 AD (99 upside down) recorded by Josephus and quoted on your web page:

Miracle in 66 AD: Josephus wrote, "Moreover, at that feast which we call PENTECOST, as the priests were going BY NIGHT into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of A GREAT MULTITUDE, SAYING, 'LET US REMOVE HENCE.'" (Wars. VI.VI.3, emphasis mine)

You can come to your own conclusions! Maranatha!

My reply

You made me go look these up in Strong's. Clay Cantrell said I should do that a long time ago. Someone else also told me. I expect they make more sense this year than they did to me last year anyway.

Hebrew word number and meaning:
1998, noise, from 1993, be disquieted
1999, rush, sound, speech ("Come up hither"?)
2000, put in commotion, trouble (Y2K bug?)
2001, Haman (he that prepares, tumult, a type of Satan)

Greek word number and meaning:
1998, come running together
1999, that which cometh upon, + raising up
2000, to trip, insecure, dangerous
2001, to avail further, insist stoutly, be the more fierce

They fit the circumstances pretty well. You said 01999 (Hebrew) was used in Ezekiel 1:24. It says, "And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host." Makes you wonder, huh?

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