Pro and Con 305

Uploaded 4-17-99, PM

Note: This is he way the Jews of today are counting the Omer.
"Arutz Sheva News Service:
Sunday, April 11, 1999 / Nisan 25, 5759 - Day 10 of the Omer"
My countdown had day 9. The Jew's inclusive reckoning will end up with Pentecost on Sivan 6. My non-inclusive reckoning countdown will end up on Sivan 7. Either day is ok with me for the Rapture. Or even Sivan 8, Sunday. How about you?

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FWD: To: Marilyn Agee: Re: possible sign
Doug: Tho you may not agree with Marilyn's date setting...the signs in the heavens are unmistakable and unparalleled! Bullinger's work on the stars and scripture has been born out in an incredible manner of late, her last paragraph is exciting!!! He is coming soon.

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One or two raptures?
Marilyn, hope Ed is well!! I found the following article on another web site. If you are able to find the time in the next week or so would you mind responding to it as I wouldn't like to see other bretheren being misguided by the information it contains. I would try myself but I think that God is using your wisdom more than mine in these matters. Yours in Christ our saviour's abundant love

My reply

Thanks. Ed is ok. My comments to the article will be interspersed within the text. It is from watcher. I don't know if Brenda or her husband David Johnson wrote it.
"Revelation 20:4-6"
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

***From Marilyn: These that sit on the thrones judging include the elders that were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Rev. 4:4 says, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats (lit., thrones): and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." Twelve are the patriarches of the 12 tribes of Israel. The other twelve are the apostles.

***Besides the elders, all that have part in the first Rapture are kings and priests. In Rev. 5:9,10, they are seen in Heaven. They say, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests."

***Psa. 91:8,9 says, "Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation." Psa. 149:5-9 says, "Let the saints be joyful in glory (Heaven): let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people: To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron: To EXECUTE UPON THEM THE JUDGMENT WRITTEN: THIS HONOUR HAVE ALL HIS SAINTS."

***The part quoted below starts out with "and." Not only were those taken to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, but the Tribulation saints are also already in Heaven. We see the first group in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, the second group in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. The latter are the great multitude that come out of the Great Tribulation.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

***The first resurrection has different RANKS, first the head of the Body of Christ was born into another world when Christ ascended to Heaven. Next, those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture will be born from the womb of the Earth to Heaven. Last, the Tribulation saints will be born into the new world. It is as if one foot of the Body of Christ is born a little before the other foot.

***"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (I Cor. 15:22,23).

***Note: This "coming" cannot be the Second Advent. At that time "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE" (Zech. 14:5). They must all be in Heaven before that time, or they cannot return with him. There is no Scripture that says they will go up in the air, turn around, and descend with him, as some say. That seems pretty pointless. Why go up at all? On the Day of God's Wrath, the Lord says, "I have trodden the winepress ALONE; of the people there was NONE WITH ME" (Isa. 63:3). His return to the Mt. of Olives is 7 1/2 months AFTER the Day of God's Wrath (Ezek. 39:12). The saints must be in Heaven BEFORE God's Wrath. We are not appointed to wrath. The first coming of Christ is in the air. This is the Pre-Trib Rapture. I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR." The Pre-Wrath Rapture does not say anything about meeting the Lord in the air. Then "shall he send his ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the Church saints that met the Lord in the air before the Tribulation) (Mk. 13:27). Then in Rev. 7:15, the Tribulation saints are in Heaven "before the throne of God." The first Rapture is unique in that we meet the Lord in the air.

This passage (Revelation 20:4-6) tells us that tribulation martyrs will be among those "dead in Christ" resurrected at the rapture. It follows, then, that the rapture takes place some time AFTER the antichrist starts persecuting those who will not take his mark.

***That won't wash, for the first group is seen in Heaven in Rev 5:9 before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6.

***Second Thess. 2:1-3 (New Scofield) says, "NOW we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is present. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away (apostasia, departing, as in a divorce, apostacion, i.e., the Rapture) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

***Almost every ancient MSS has "day of the Lord." That is the millennial Day of the Lord. It can't come until the Rapture has taken place, and then the man of sin is revealed after that. The Holy Spirit restrains his appearing until after we are safely in Heaven. We are the salt of the Earth, and salt retards the growth of leaven. After we are gone, evil will mushroom in a hurry.

***We are to be kept "FROM the hour of temptation (pierasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

***Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."

In order that they hang on to their "pre-trib" rapture hope, some Christian authors posit a second rapture during the tribulation which will account for those saints described in Revelation 20:4-6. A "pre-trib" rapture would have already removed the faithful prior to antichrist's persecution, so according to this theory these tribulation martyrs must be those newly converted, having missed the "pre-trib" rapture.

***Some will be newly converted. Some will be Laodiceans who were left behind the first time.

However, there can be no "pre-trib" rapture/resurrection and then a "second rapture/resurrection" at some point within the tribulation. We are clearly told that "THIS is the first resurrection", the resurrection which INCLUDES THOSE SAINTS MARTYRED DURING ANTICHRIST'S PERSECUTION. The rest of the dead do not live again until after the thousand years.

John's Revelation says nothing of three resurrections of the dead. There are merely the two: the first resurrection of the dead in Christ, including those martyred during the antichrist's persecution, as John saw, and the resurrection of the rest of the dead after Jesus Christ's Millennial reign. According to such noted authors as Marilyn Agee, there is a "pre trib rapture" removing Christians before the antichrist comes to power. This would necessitate three resurrections: the "pre-trib resurrection" which would take all Christians before the antichrist could persecute them, an "inter trib resurrection" to account for those martyrs seen by John, and then of course there is the final Great Throne Judgement resurrection after the Millennium Kingdom. Notice how thoroughly John has described two resurrections of the dead during the tribulation: one at a point after many have been martyred by antichrist, and one after the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. There is no mystery surrounding TWO resurrections of the dead...BUT WHERE IS THE THIRD? The answer can only be that Agee and her fellow pre-tribbers are incorrect ... there is only the resurrection of the dead DURING the tribulation which will include those martyred by the antichrist, and the Great Throne resurrection after the 1000 year Millennium Kingdom.

***If that were true, Brenda and David, as well as the rest of us, would have no hope, since the head of the Body of Christ has already been resurrected. There could be no other resurrection until the end of the Millennium, and all those are lost. The first resurrection is a term that applies to the saved. The second resurrection is a term that applies to the lost. There are ranks in the first resurrection, as I Cor. 15:22,23 says. Just as many Jews could not see that there were two comings of Christ to walk the Earth, many Christians today cannot see that there are also two comings of Christ for his saints.

If one can get past the basic arguments for a "pre-trib" rapture perhaps we in the Body of Christ can piece together a more Biblical end time chronology. We here at watcher have heard the pre-trib arguments many times, and the scripture used to support these arguments remain unconvincing. Really, we would love to optimistically believe that we will be raptured prior to antichrist...but all the arguments for this just don't make sense.

***They make sense to me. In Rev. 5:9, we see the first group, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," in Heaven before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. In Rev. 7:9,14, we see "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that have come "out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes" standing before the throne in Heaven before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth in Rev. 8. Notice how the first group did not have to wash their robes, but the second group did. The Church saints are caught up before the first seal is broken. The Tribulation saints are caught up between the sixth and seventh seals. If you have eyes to see, it is clear. What happens before the first seal is broken cannot be the same event that takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals.

***In Lu. 12:42-47, Jesus said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of MEAT IN DUE SEASON? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming: and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the UNBELIEVERS (in the Tribulation). And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes."

***Mark 13:27 says, And then shall he (the Son of man) send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, and from the uttermost part of the earth (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the Church saints that were taken to Heaven before the Tribulation. There are two groups here. One is already in Heaven. The other is being gathered from the Earth on the first day of the Millennium.

***Mark 13:25 says, "And the stars of heaven shall fall." This happens at the sixth seal. Rev. 6:13 says, "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth." Therefore, according to Mark 13:27, some are already in Heaven before this time.

***Isa. 57:1 says, "merciful men are TAKEN WAY (abab, exit, evacuate), none considering that the righteous is taken away FROM the evil to come" (in the Tribulation). This agrees with Rev. 3:10: "I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD."

***Two men have been raptured to show us that there will be two Raptures, Enoch and Elijah. Enoch was taken up before tribulation. Elijah went through tribulation. Remember the 3 1/2 years without rain and Jezebel? Remember that Elijah had to flee for Jezebel would have had him killed?

***The first Rapture is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37). No fire fell that day. The second Rapture is as the days of Lot (Lu. 17:29). Fire fell that same day. That is why there was no fire when Enoch was taken up, but there was "a chariot of fire" (II Ki. 2:11) when Elijah was taken up.

***We must be careful to be ready at the time of the first Rapture. We do not want to be divorced as Israel was at her first time. Agape

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Re: "I really wish you'd cut it out."
Dear Patient, Everbearing Marilyn,
I not only chuckled but guffawed at this last quote from P and C 301. Poor dears. They are getting so exasperated. They just can't shut you up. And in their minds they shriek, "You lummox!"

I should say "Poor things." It is amazing how deluded people can become by some preacher with a long list of letters after his name who thinks that during his 4 years of seminary he learned everything he ever should need to know about God. They therefore shut their minds, their ears and their spirits to the truth that we'll never fully understand everything about God or even everything about the Bible.

They remind me of some doctors who refuse learn anything new after graduating from med school. They know it all. Someone who has a little bit of information and refuses to learn more is far more dangerous than someone who knows next-to-nothing but admits it and tries to remedy his ignorance.

Hopefully we haven't long to wait. In the meantime, if a few more can be shaken to their senses enough to get on board before the train leaves the station it will be well worth the trauma.

We're continuing to pray for you...

By the way, You recall 6 year-ol Amy's dream last May of opening three doors, searching for Jesus: "....And behind the third door there was a great big light, and there was Jesus!" (Jan 23, 1999's "great, big light?")

Today Amy said, "I really hope that Jesus comes in May. I'm really getting tired of waiting."

Karen said, "Why don't you ask Jesus again to tell you?" (Hoping that the Lord would give her another dream).

Amy replied, "I already did, but I couldn't understand what He said."

Obviously Amy believes that the Lord answers prayers. Much love

My reply

Thanks for reminding me that in Amy's dream, Christ followed the light behind the third door. I had forgotten the light. It seems more significant since the really big light on Jan. 23.

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Please know that we share your sorrow at Millie's home going. As you have pointed out, it won't be long before we shall join them.

Millie was fortunate to have been so greatly loved by her devoted family. She could not have had a better daughter than you have been to her, a reflection of her son's good sense in choosing a mate! Because of your care for her and for Ed during these past few months you have been stretched almost beyond belief. I really did not think that you would be able to cope with all of that as well as continue your work for the Lord. Somehow, through God's grace and assistance you have managed to get over what we hope were our roughest trials during this past year, during which time, as you have pointed out, we were all being "sifted as wheat".

On our travels throughout the Middle East we were fortunate to observe the sifting of wheat the old fashioned way, with a pile of wheat on the ground and women tossing it into the air with pitchforks. That gives an excellent picture of this past year. Those who were too "light" just floated away with the wind. Thankfully you have helped many of the Lord's people to keep their substance, so as not to get spiritually dried up and careless during the stress of waiting. Hopefully our band of Believers are still in the pile, the good wheat that remains after the sifting process and suitable for the Master's use.

God bless, Hold in there and know that we continue to pray for your family during this time of sorrow. Love

My reply

Thanks. Because of my having to do for Ed after his bypass surgery, our son Dave took over taking Millie to her doctor appointments. This last trip home from the hospital, Ed and I managed. Because of my leg and foot cramps, driving that far is hard on me. Ed doesn't drive now. Dave told him that he didn't want to ride with him if he tried. He is too slow with his feet. We made the between 90 and 100-mile round trip on Wednesday to see Millie, then again on Friday to take her home from the hospital. Going was not bad. Traffic would let me use the cruise control quite a bit. Coming home, stop and go traffic would not allow it but one tiny stretch.

I have three more swags to pleat today and the drapery sewing is done. Don't know yet if we will have to make another trip to deliver them or not. The weather turned hot and the heavy unseasonable snow is melting on the mountains. One ski lift closed two days and then reopened after getting so much late snow. My workroom is in the garage, so I was glad the Arctic air quit coming down here. Now, it seems like spring.

That must have been interesting to actually see wheat winnowed. I appreciate your sharing that. I think that is just what has been going on this year. We all have to hang in there and be strong.

Hope you are well. You are in my prayers.

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As you have pointed out repeatedly that the raptures will be like the days of Noah and Lot, the first in which there was plenty of time and opportunity to get on board days in advance while Lot and his daughters barely escaped the destruction.

The translations of Enoch and Elijah can be examined in a similar fashion. Enoch walked with God and "was not for the Lord took him." It sounded like a normal day to me.

Elijah went up in "a chariot of fire and horses of fire." II Kings 2:11. Does that sound like the day of God's wrath? Another interesting correlation that points to the concept of two different raptures.

My reply

I think Enoch represents the first Rapture and Elijah the second, which is on the Day of God's Wrath. Some fire falls like figs as soon as the sixth seal is broken. Then the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. That is why there was a "chariot of fire" when Elijah went up.

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Thanks for responding to the Zechariah 14 question. I see what you are saying about the day of verse 1 being a different day than verse 4. It is common in the writings of the prophets to see a complete subject change from one verse to the next. For instance, in Daniel 11, verses 36-39 refers to the False Prophet but then changes to the King of the North in 40-44.

Even though I see what you are saying, there are a couple of things about Zechariah 14 I would mention. First, verse 4 begins with "And". Have you not said in the past that when you have a paragraph beginning with "And", it means it is definately a continuation of the previous verse?

And something else. We agree that verse 1-3 refers to the day of the asteriod hits, the first day of the Millennium. Verse 3 also says it is the day the Lord goes forth and fights against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle. It is the day of Psalms 149 when the Lord turns over to the Saints the "honour" of executing the judgement written upon the heathen, the people, the kings and the nobles.

In your response you said, "Those of the first Rapture will be in Heaven at least seven years. Those of the second Rapture will be in Heaven seven months before all return to Earth with the Lord. There would be no need of a second Rapture if they were going to return to Earth again that same day."

Zechariah 14.3 is the day the Lord fights, and the day the Lord fights is the day the Lord gives the "honour" to the Saints in Psalms 149. We know the second Rapture takes place immediately before the asteriods hit. And we also know that the Lord fights on this day with His Saints.

We also know that the second Rapture Saints appear at the wedding feast shortly after the marriage of the Bridegroom and the Bride on the first day of the Millennium. Therefore the Lord and the Saints must go to fight after the wedding feast is over but before the day is over. Now this brings up another question. Are the first Rapture Saints still considered to be "Saints" now that they are no longer a bride but are now married to the Lord? If the answer is 'no', then the second Rapture Saints WILL return back to earth on the same day to fight with the Lord and His wife. They would be the only Saints left. And since they will be in their new eternal bodies, they will "know fully" and will be therefore "fully" prepared to carry out the "honour" the Lord gives to His Saints. If the answer is yes, they can still come back the same day. They will know "fully'.

In your response you also said, "The day of thick darkness cannot be the same day that will be light at evening. ...Ezek. 38:23 shows that the first day, Tishri 1, is the day the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 is seen."

Mt. 24:30 also says they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven. If they can SEE Him in the air, then this means that at some point during the day, the Lord must lift the "thick darkness" in order for them to see the sign. In fact, the last part of verse 7 (Zech 14) says, "...but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light". Maybe the Lord lifts the thick darkness at evening time on the first day of the Millennium and the world will see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky.

And lastly, could the earthquake that "swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth" (Rev 12.16) be the same earthquake that splits the mount of Olives when the Lord's feet touchdown?

My reply

> changes to the King of the North in 40-44

Look again. He is attacked by the king of the north.

> Have you not said in the past that when you have a paragraph beginning
> with "And", it means it is definately a continuation of the previous verse?

Not unless it was a specific case. There are times where it does continue, but I doubt that it is that cut and dried. I remember Bob Thieme saying that the word "But" meant a break though. The Bible is written in enough "coded" messages to keep the wicked from understanding it. Each case has to be examined carefully and compared with the rest of Scripture to see what it really means.

> asteriods hit. And we also know that the Lord fights on this day with His Saints.

I don't think so. At this time, the saints do not fight. When they do, it is at Armageddon, after the Second Advent. Since I mentioned Thieme, I remember that he said that each one of us would bump one demon. You couldn't prove that by me, but he studied Greek eight years and Hebrew five, and is totally convinced that it is true. He says it is not as clear in English.

Isa. 63:2-4 says, "Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I HAVE TRODDEN THE WINEPRESS ALONE; AND OF THE PEOPLE THERE WAS NONE WITH ME: for I will tread them in mine anger...For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come."

> Are the first Rapture Saints still considered to be "Saints" now that they
> are no longer a bride but are now married to the Lord?

They can't be non-saints, can they? They have earned the right to be called saints. Saints are called the Bride here, why not then?

> Maybe the Lord lifts the thick darkness at evening time on the first day of
> the Millennium and the world will see the sign of the Son of Man in the sky.

As I understand it, he rolls the clouds back from a portion of the sky like a scroll. In that area, they see the Sign of the Son of Man. That he could roll back the darkness will be as much a wonder to the unsaved as the actual sign. This is totally a different day from the day of the Second Advent. The bodies of the dead have to be buried in Israel before he will return in glory. That takes seven months (Ezek. 39:12).

> And lastly, could the earthquake that "swallowed up the flood which
> the dragon cast out of his mouth" (Rev 12.16) be the same earthquake
> that splits the mount of Olives when the Lord's feet touchdown?

I don't see how it could be. The former is after the Messianic Jews flee Jerusalem in Mid-Trib. The Day of God's Wrath has not yet come, and there are seven Jewish months after that before the Second Advent. The Day of God's Wrath is Tishri 1, and the Second Advent is the following Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21) in a Jewish leap year. The Jewish 5768 (our 2007/2008) is a leap year.

Nisan 1, 5768 is our April 6, 2008, the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar. It is interesting that Nisan 1 also falls on April 6 in our 2000 and does not again until 2008.

Since after Tishri 1, there will be a delay of several months before the Second Advent, it makes more sense that after the 6000th year was over last Sept. 21 there will be a delay of several months to Christ's coming in the air at the time of the Rapture.

Here is something else I found very interesting. In "Pre-Trib Perspectives" for April, 1999, is an article, "Why the Rapture," by Thomas Ice. Here is a paragraph: "Enoch's rapture is confirmed by the divinely inspired New Testament commentary found in Hebrews 11:5 which says, 'By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.' The New Testament word 'taken up' in Hebrews is the same one selected by those who translated the Old Testament into Greek. This word conveys the idea of being removed from one place to another. Thus, it is clear that both the Genesis passage and the thrice repeated reference to Enoch in Hebrews teaches the idea of translation to heaven."

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Updated 4-17-99