Pro and Con 32, uploaded 11-12-97

Incoming Email

...I do have a question. Please do not think that I am trying to be confrontational or anything it is a question for my own understanding. You have placed a great deal of emphasis on the rapture being on a Sunday because it was on the Lords day that John had his heavenly visit.

The question comes from the idea that the early church, was called "The Way", and were a "sect" of Judaism. Messianic Jews in fact. Now the early church still kept the appointed times, the feast days, and observed the Sabbath. Johns revelation was apx 60 AD. The church did not begin observing Sunday as a separate day of worship until the Romanization of the church, about 360 AD. Until that time The Lords Day was Sabbath, Saturday, the 7th day. In fact only the 7th day was called the Lords day the pagan names for days Monday, Tuesday ect were not used by the Jews.

Now having said all that, Next Passover is on Sabbath, while Pentecost is on the first day of the week. I think that the 30 and 50 year rule from Numbers 4 indicate that Israel must take up the mantle of worship before May 14 which is before Pentecost. The Rabbi who communicated with Barbara Richmond seemed to agree with that understanding (30 through 49) and not 50. I think that all these things must take place before the 50th year of Israel and I don't think the Jews will take their place until the Church, the presence of the body of Yeshua is removed from its place on the earth, and from its place of Spiritual authority. The two witnesses and the 144,000 will lead the Jews into their new position. This may all come to pass BECAUSE of the Rapture. This might be the event that turns their eyes back toward their Messiah. The other thing that will happen at that time, is that when the Jews begin looking for messiah, that is the time that they are willing to accept messiah, even if it is the false one. The Antichrist must be revealed before they can follow him and Antichrist can't be revealed until that which holds back is taken out of the way.

With much Love and an open mind,

My reply

I certainly appreciate someone who operates in God's agape love and has an open mind. This is the way all the cells of the Body of Christ should work together in striving to understand God's word and in doing God's work. God is love, and if we are filled with his Holy Spirit, we are filled with his love. It should flow through each one of us out to others in the Body and weld us all into a well-oiled working organism that the Brain (Christ, the Head) can teach and use.

I don't want to be dogmatic. I just give my opinion, and I would change that in a heartbeat if I could see that the Scripture meant something different. I have no pet theory to defend. I just want to understand Scripture correctly. I want to know all the deep things--everything.

To me, if I find something in Scripture, I believe it. If someone tells me something, I have to see it in Scripture before I can accept it as gospel truth. Tradition must be tried against Scripture too.

If the Rapture comes on Passover, I will be delighted. However, it seems that the three feasts of Nisan belong to Christ, Pentecost belongs to the church and the three feasts of Tishri belong to the Millennium.

I do think Rev. 1:10 is Sunday. The word used is not derived from shabbath, but kurios.

There is some scriptural evidence that they kept the first day of the week in the first century.

Acts 20:7 says, "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."

I Cor. 16:2 says, "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."

On Saturday in 30 A.D., Christ had not yet arisen. As a type, Sunday is a better day for the Rapture because it was Resurrection Day and there is resurrection at the Rapture. The Rapture is a coming of Christ, even if it is in the air.

On Resurrection Day, Jesus did not want to be touched before he ascended to Heaven and took the saints in Paradise with him. After he returned, he allowed himself to be touched. He RETURNED ON SUNDAY, a good indication that he will again return on Sunday.

Pentecost in 30 A.D. was also on Sunday. The Spirit of Christ CAME DOWN to the church on Pentecost Sunday.

The Second Coming seems to also be on Sunday (Nisan 1, 5768). This doesn't seem too strange when you read Mal. 4:2. It says, "But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings."

We can't let Satan's counterfeit Sun god get in our way of understanding the truth. Our adversary always counterfeits the truth to confuse mankind. He mixes things up too.

For instance, the seven stages of the Tower of Babel, with its top the heavens, was being built to overturn the truth. The lowest stage represented the true Heaven, not the top. He turned the whole sequence upside down. The first stage represented Shabbatai.

Incoming Email, Re: Date of both Advents

Thanks. You make some good points....

You said, "The Second Coming seems to also be on Sunday (Nisan 1,5768)." Where did you get that date? When is that, 2007?

Keep up the great work, and God bless.

My reply, Re: Date of both Advents

...No, the Second Coming is not in 2007. Nisan 1, 5768 is April 6, 2008, the anniversary on our calendar of the Crucifixion. It is the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year because Jesus is returning as King of kings. It is the first day of the Sacred Year because he is returning as Lord of lords. He will take office on Earth on the same date, month and day of the month, as all the other Israelite kings officially took office.

> Where did you get that date?

First of all, in De. 11:14, YHVH (the LORD) promised Israel, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN." This means that the two advents of Christ are as the former rain and as the latter rain in Israel. The former rain starts on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets, and is Jesus' birthday. The latter rain starts on Nisan 1, the beginning of the Regnal and Sacred Year and is the date of the Second Advent. For the dates of the former and latter rain see "Calendar" in Unger's Bible Dictionary or any Jewish calendar that lists the feasts and harvest dates.

Second, Hosea 5:15-6:3 says, "I (YHWH/Yeshua/Jesus) will go and return to my place (Heaven), till they (the Jews) acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction (the day of Jacob's trouble as the Millennium begins) they will seek me early. (Now Israel speaks) COME, and let us return unto the LORD (YHWH): for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days (1000-year days) will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight (fulfilled on time in 1948). Then shall we KNOW (the time of his comings), if we follow on (1967's Sign of the End of the Age made this knowing possible) to know the LORD: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH."

Third, Joel 2:23 shows that the former and latter rains come down in the first month, first day of the month. This is is because in Scripture, if a number of a day is not given, the first of the month is understood because the word for month means new moon. The new moon is the first of the month. Joel said, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD (YHWH) your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." The former rain is Tishri 1, the latter rain Nisan 1.

Fourth, Ezekiel 29:17,21 tells us plainly that the Lord will return on Nisan 1. The day is set in verse 17, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." This is Nisan 1, see Ezek. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD (YHVH)."

Now that we know it is on Nisan 1, we must determine the year. When Israel first became a nation when she came out of Egypt, those males 20 and up were counted. All of those except Joshua and Caleb died in the wilderness. The 19-year olds were considered the young. They went into the promised land after the 40 years in the wilderness.

All these things happened to Israel for ensamples to us upon whom the ends of the ages are come. The 19 years being the last year one is considered young fits the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. It says, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel); When his branch (scion, modern Israel grafted into her old rootstock) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., 19 years old and no more), and putteth forth leaves (grows, Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (the war started June 5, summer started June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the two Raptures, Rev. 3:8: 4:1). Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Israel was reborn in 1948. That plus 19 years is 1967, the Sign of the End of the Age, plus one 40-year generation = 2007, when Jews will again go back to their land.

The Millennium begins on the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation (that began on the Feast of Weeks in 2001), Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007). It is the greatest day ever. No other will ever be like it. First, it is Coronation Day. Christ will receive his golden crown on his birthday (probably placed on his head by his mother, Song of Solomon 3:11). Second, the Marriage of the Lamb will take place. Then the Tribulation saints will be gathered (Mark 13:27) for the Judgment Seat of Christ is next. All Heaven and Earth keep silence 1/2 hour while the judge is installed and seated.

Rev. 11:17,18 describes the scene: "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

This is also the Day of God's Wrath, the day of thick darkness. It cannot be the day of Christ's Second Advent. Zechariah 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass at that say, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

Christ will not return for seven months. Ezekiel 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD." That is when he will return in glory.

Normally, Tishri 1 to Nisan 1 is six months, but 5768 is a Jewish leap year. Therefore, there are seven months between the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord and the Second Advent.

Another confirmation is that there are four Jewish years, 5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761, Pentecost to Pentecost (our 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001, inclusive reckoning) between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Feast of Weeks that begins the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Luke 13:6-9). And, there are ten years (Rev. 2:10) between the Pre-Trib Rapture in 5758 and the Pre-Wrath Rapture in 5768. (The word translated days in Rev. 2:10 means any of several periods of time, including years, the meaning to be determined by the context.)

I hope I have made this clear in as little space as possible. Other things enter into the picture, such as 1998 being both the Jubilee year and the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of Eden and man began to be tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil.

Incoming Email, Re: Date of both Advents

I studied your e-mail and am fascinated. Must meditate on this more.

Just checked out your Web site, the first time in many months. I had forgotten what an excellent site it is. Congratulations. You have some interesting stuff....

You are very gifted in knowledge and insight. I thank God for your commitment to our Lord and for boldly proclaiming His soon return, as some others of us are.

I am glad you posted the fax from the rabbi in Jerusalem and his "more than 30, less than 50" understanding, which I take seriously. However, according to his view, the rapture must be BEFORE May 14, 1998. How is that compatible with your Pentecost, 1998 view as your end-note implies?

Incoming Email, Re: Date of both Advents, from another who received copies of this discussion

Thanks for the quick answer. I too believe that the spring feasts are connected with the first coming and the fall feasts with the kingdom and Pentecost with the church. I do not expect a Passover rapture myself. Although as types go, there were many men resurrected on the day of the Crucifixion. A Type of Rapture. It is perfectly reasonable to think that Pentecost could mark the end of the Church as it marked it's beginning. I was really more concerned with the times associated with the 50th year of Israel and how all that Lines up with Pentecost. It would mean that Israel would pick up the mantle of worship before the Church is removed. This seems a foreign idea to me, but anything is possible. I thank you for all the work that you have done in presenting the message of the imminent return of our Lord.

My reply, Re: Date of both Advents

Since this is a sort of Round Robin letter anyway, I'll answer both of you in one email.

Before getting into the real subject at hand, the Rabbi's FAX and the Rapture, I want to thank you, ---, for saying my Web site is an excellent site. It makes all my hard work worth it....Thanks also for saying, "You are very gifted in knowledge and insight. I thank God for your commitment to our Lord and for boldly proclaiming His soon return."

-------, thanks for saying, "I thank you for all the work that you have done in presenting the message of the imminent return of our Lord." Between my studies, my three books and my Web page, this has consumed much time and energy ever since around 1960. We are only here for awhile and have to work. We can get a much needed rest in Heaven.

To refresh our minds, here is what the Rabbi said:
> > Numbers, chapter 4, verse one, Moses instructs the people that for a man to
> > be a priest he must be at least 30 years of age but not more than 50 years.
> > Then he may serve in the house of G'd. Y'shua began to minister at 30
> > years. I began to think about 30 years and 50 years, to ask for
> > understanding because I felt something in my heart.

> > > > Exodus 19:6 the Almighty calls all Israel to be a nation of priests. This
> > is our destiny, our mission, our calling which must to be fulfilled in these
> > times after the days of the Gentiles are finished when the body of Messiah
> > is removed from this earth.

> > > > Daniel's last week is at the door - when Israel will finish her calling from
> > the Mighty One. Now here is the situation to me...

> > > > G'd always fulfills His patterns which he established. At least 30, no more
> > than 50. The city of Yerushalayim so to speak became 30 years on 6 June,
> > 1997, 30 years after Israeli control since 1967 war. Israel is 49 years, to
> > celebrate 50 years 14 May, 1998.

> > > > This is like a window of days when for the only time in history, both the
> > city of David and the nation of Israel qualify at the right age to take up
> > again the calling to be a nation of priests... THE CITY IS 30 YEARS, THE
> > NATION LESS THAN 50. Could it be that Israel will begin to fulfill its
> > final destiny between now and May 1998?

> > > > You understand, dear Barbara, if this is true revelation from the Mighty
> > One, "Blessed be His Name" that it is very important for you for as we
> > know, the present body of Messiah must be taken from this earth before the Jews
> > take up the mantle again of G'd's work and will. So Y'shua could come for
> > His followers anytime in this "window."

Numbers 4:3,4 says, "From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This shall be the service of the sons of Kothath in the tabernacle." This applied to the Levites.

If strictly applied to the time of the end, it would indicate that the priests that will officiate at the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem will be between 30 and 50 years old.

Exodus 19:6 says, "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." This applied to all the tribes. Many times in Scripture, the mention of "children" does refer us to the end times, such as "Little children, it is the last have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things." (I John 2:18,20). Since all Israel will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8) as the Millennium begins, this is when "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" will really apply to Israel.

We know that I Cor. 10:11 tells us that "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come." Therefore, the above may also be types, the antitypes to take place in the time of the end.

Thus, we are justified in looking for correlations such as the Rabbi is doing. Let's look first at the Sign of the End of the Age, the Six-Day War of 1967. He indicates that the rest of Jerusalem was taken June 6. By Jewish inclusive reckoning, the first year runs from June 6, 1967 to June 6, 1968. The 30th year runs from June 6, 1996 to June 6, 1997. By our reckoning, using a zero year, the 30th year runs from June 6, 1997 to June 6, 1998.

Next, let's look at Israel's being reborn as a nation. By inclusive reckoning, the first year ran from May 14, 1948 to May 14, 1949. The 50th year is May 14, 1997 to May 14, 1998. By our reckoning, it is May 14, 1998 to May 14, 1999.

Since Israel has declared the 50th year to start May 14, 1998, it will run until May 14, 1999, here they are using the modern way of reckoning, not inclusive reckoning.

Therefore, using our way of reckoning, the window the Rabbi was talking about would actually run between the June 6, 1997 to June 6, 1998 for Jerusalem and the May 14, 1998 to May 14, 1999 for Israel.

If the Rapture took place on Pentecost, May 31, 1998, it would fall within both the 30th year for Jerusalem and within the 50th year for Israel.

Also, I think the Jewish Year 5758 (our 1997/1998) is the 6000th year of the mortality of man. This count began when, after 40 years of testing and probation, Adam was judged and cast out of the Garden of Eden and man began to be tested knowing both good and evil in 40 AH, year of man, (4004/4003 BC) (243 BJE, before Jewish Era).

I think the Exodus was in 2513 AH (our 1530 BC) and that the Jubilee cycle is a 49 year cycle, starting with the Jewish Nisan 1, 2231. That would place the 72nd Jubilee in 5759. If the Rapture was Pentecost in 5758, this Jubilee would be announced the following Day of Atonement and start on the following Nisan 1, 5759. That might make good sense.

However, since it is so easy to make a mistake of one year when dealing with our years versus Jewish years, I keep wanting to make a new spreadsheet chart of all the years since Adam was created using AH years, BC-AD years and Jewish years. I just don't seem to be able to find the time.

I am no computer whiz. I wish I knew how to put a formula in the ClarisWorks 4.0 spreadsheet (for the Mac) that would set it up to automatically advance one number in each frame with just one click. That would make it so much quicker and would assure accuracy. I have to type each number in one at a time. Surely there is a better way, if I just knew how to set it up.

Before I sign off, here is something to mull over about a Rapture on Pentecost. Exodus 23:16 mentions "the feast of harvest," which is Pentecost. This is the wheat harvest and we are called wheat. Then verse 19 says, "The FIRST of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God." I think the Rapture of the Bride of Christ is the FIRST of the firstfruits and that the Rapture of the rest of the Body of Christ is the rest of the firstfruits.

Nehemiah 10:35,36 says of Pentecost: "to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD: ALSO THE FIRSTBORN OF OUR SONS." This suggests that people are brought into the house of the Lord on Pentecost. It could tie in with the Rapture, when Christ takes his Bride to his Father's house.

Incoming Email, Re: Date of both Advents

Marilyn Agee wrote: > Next, let's look at Israel's being reborn as a nation. By inclusive
> reckoning, the first year ran from May 14, 1948 to May 14, 1949. The
> 50th year is May 14, 1997 to May 14, 1998. By our reckoning, it is May
> 14, 1998 to May 14, 1999.

I am still struggling with this. Please help. Maybe I am thick. By my counting (and as you say above), the 50th year ENDS May 14, 1998, and you then begins the 51st year. How can Israel be "under 50" after May 14, 1998, when it will be in the 51st year?

Marilyn Agee wrote:
> Since Israel has declared the 50th year to start May 14, 1998

Are you sure they are declaring the "start" of the 50th year and not just the 50th birthday? When I celebrated by 1st birthday, I had already completed it. Thanks

My reply, Re: Date of both Advents

I wish I had not mentioned Jewish inclusive reckoning for Israel does not seem to be using it now, although they have in the past and did in Bible days. This whole thing would have seemed much simpler if I had left that out. It is just that in my mind, I am used to figuring things by both systems to try to figure out which system is being used.

It is similar to figuring out which hour of the day Jesus was crucified and which hour he died. You have to sort out the accounts and figure which account was using Israeli time and which one was using Roman time. It gets complicated.

Now, I just hope I can clarify what I meant and not just mix you up more. Like any arithmetic, it seems simple if we already know it and hard if we don't.

There are two main methods of reckoning time that we have to consider when dealing with the Bible and the Jews. The method used by the Jews in Bible days is called inclusive reckoning. It differs from the way we count time today because we consider the first date in a series a zero and they call the first date in a series number one.

A modern-day example that comes to mind is the Six-Day War. It started June 6 and ended June 10. The Jews call that 6 days. Count them. (5-6-7-8-9-10). Did you get 6? You have to say "one" when you point to the 5, "two" when you point to the 6, etc. to end up with six total.

Now, forget the way the Jews counted it. How many days would you say this war lasted if you never heard it called the Six-Day War? Wouldn't you say 10 - 5 = 5 and call it a five-day war? Wouldn't you consider the 5 as a zero and say "one" as you pointed to number 6 and "two" as you pointed to number 7, and end up with five total?

The result is that there is a one-year difference in the totals when reckoned by the two different methods. If we were to figure that that war was a six-day war, it would have had to end on the 11th instead of the 10th. (11 - 5 = 6)

The same type of thing is true of a baby's age. By inclusive reckoning, he is "one" the entire first year of his life and "two" the entire second year of his life, starting on his first birthday.

We count it differently. We do not say a child is "one" until his first birthday and "two" until his second birthday.

Therefore, by Jewish inclusive reckoning, where you include the first year in your count, the 50th year after May 14, 1948 would have started May 14, 1997 and ended May 14, 1998.

But, by our reckoning, the 50th year after May 14, 1948 starts May 14, 1998 (1948 + 50 = 1998) and ends May 14, 1999.

However, obviously, Israel is not using their own calendar or inclusive reckoning these days, because they set the Jubilee year to start May 14, 1998 (1948 + 50 = 1998). The Jubilee year is one year long, so it will end May 14, 1999. They are calling it a Jubilee, but of course the one-day birthday is May 14, 1998.

Actually, on the Jewish calendar, Israel was reborn Iyar 5, 5708. The year 5708 + 50 = 5758, which is our 1997/1998. I don't think there really is a conflict with the Rapture on Pentecost in 5758. Do you?

At any rate, in case we make a mistake somewhere, let's just be ready, whenever the Rapture takes place. We don't want to miss out on being chosen as the Bride of Christ, and the Bride always wears white.

Incoming Email, Re: Date of both Advents, from another who got a copy of this three-way Round Robin letter

Dear Marilyn, You have a gift for teaching. You explained those dating methods thoroughly so that a 3rd grader could understand. It belongs in one of your pro and cons since there will be others who will get confused with all of the rhetoric storming over the internet. As my late husband used to say, paper does not refuse ink, and the internet reports whatever people choose to post. Keep up the great work. Love

Incoming Email, Re: shout


> > Dear Fellow Believer, A point of controversy has arisen in respect
> > to the coming of the bridgroom for His bride (rapture). One who
> > does not believe in a pre-trib rapture states that the 1
> > Thessalonians 4 account of the Lord's coming has nothing to do with
> > a bridegroom coming for his bride since the Mishnah does not
> > describe a shout or blowing of the shofur at that time. He holds
> > that this scripture refers to the shout announcing the commencement
> > of the Battle of Armageddon. Can you supply a reference in
> > Traditional Jewish tradition relating to a shout or shofur blast
> > when a groom arrives to claim his espoused bride? Thanks for any
> > help you can give with this. wrote:
Thank you for your October 27 question to Zola Levitt. My name is Todd Baker I am a Ph.D. student at Trinity Seminary. Due to the large volume of mail he receives, Zola is not able to answer every inquiry. He has given me the privilege of answering some of them on his behalf. The analogy of the bride-groom coming for the bride is not explicitly found in 1 Thess. 4:16 but rather is a trumpet that will signal the gathering of the resurrected and translated saints to heaven "to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17). It cannot refer to the battle of Armageddon on earth because the place for the Rapture to take place will be in the air. From there Christ will take us to the Father's house as a groom takes His bride (see John 14:1-3). The Mishna is not inspired Scripture and should not be the standard on which Christian doctrine is true or not. The Bible is the final court of arbitration. The trumpet and other musical instruments were used during a wedding feast. I would consult the Encyclopedia Judaica under "wedding customs" for some references. In His service, Todd Baker, Zola Levitt Ministries

My heartfelt thanks to all who like my Web Site. God's wonderful blessings on you all. May we meet at the assembly in Heaven right after the Rapture.

In Christ,
(Mrs.) Marilyn J. Agee

  Pro and Con 33

Or Return

Contact me for more information. My e-mail address is:

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960

© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 11-12-97