Pro and Con 332

Uploaded 5-29-99

Incoming Email

...from NZ again I have just read Pro and Con 329. You talk of all the signs in the moon and sun and stars. I visited the Nasa Astronomy Picture of the Day website today. Http:// It shows the latest Gamma ray burst (GRB 990510) huge but not as big as Jan 23rd.

It was seen on 11th May in the southern sky. I don't know how to find out which constellation it was in or if it has any meaning as in Bootes. Can you advise me if it is of any importance? Thanks

My reply

I think it is important because of its mind-boggling size and where it appeared. It is my understanding that both of these GRBs are in the The Pinwheel galaxy. Therefore, I assume that both were seen in Bootes in our southern sky. Also, Bootes can be seen from both the northern and southern hemispheres. We turn toward the south to see it. They turn toward the north.

Incoming Email

I was interested by the mention of signs before the Rapture and the non-imminent nature of the Rapture. I think it's true that when Christians say with emphasis that Jesus could come at ANY time etc., etc., that's as good as saying He isn't coming at all! But do you have a PRO & CON to outline these signs. If not, don't trouble to go through them again as I'll pick it up in time from your discussions. Love

My reply

When Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse, "the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be THE SIGN of thy coming, and the end (sunteleia, full end) of the world (aionos, age)? And Jesus answered" (Mt. 24:3,4). He told them that many would claim to be Christ. There would be wars and rumours of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes in divers places. We have seen these things in recent times. We have had two world wars, famines, outbreaks of terrible diseases, such as ebola and HIV. Earthquakes have greatly increased. Lists of large ones are in books such as the World Almanac. There is no doubt about the increase.

In the following verses in Mt. 24, we find more revealing information. "All these are the beginning of sorrows (i.e., the birth pangs). Then (tote, at the same time) shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

The scope of these verses goes beyond the first century application, just as they do in Mt. 10:16-23. We know that most of the apostles were killed. The great end-time application here probably began with the Holocaust.

"And then (tote, at the same time) shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another." At the same time as the Holocaust, we had WW II.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love (agape) of many shall wax cold." Here, we can see that sin quenches the Holy Spirit, and therefore agape love. When iniquity increases, agape love decreases. By this Laodicean era just before the Pre-Trib Rapture, the agape love of many is already lukewarm.

Cold sounds like people will finally be practically snarling like beasts at each other when the False Prophet rules. I don't want to be here then.

In all of this we can see the character of this age. As earthquakes increase, war, famine, disease, persecution and false prophets increase too. And instead of getting better and better, all these things keep getting worse and worse, finally culminating in the Great Tribulation. These things will increase to an awful intensity at the very end of this age. There will be the Satan indwelt False Prophet and finally a worldwide earthquake so disastrous that every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20).

After sketching events from the middle of the Tribulation to those of the 2300th day in verses 15-31, Jesus answered the disciples question about the SIGN OF THE END OF THE AGE. In Mt. 24:32-34, he said, "Now learn a parable." The disciples would not understand the full ramifications of this parable, but those that were watching during the endtimes could understand it completely when it was fulfilled.

Jesus said, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos 9:10; Eze. 36:8; Jer. 24:5); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting, i.e., modern Israel grafted into her old rootstock) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19), and putteth forth leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, taken in the Six-Day War of 1967, when the outer limit was reached--Israel was 19 years old), ye know that summer is nigh (the Six-Day War began June 5; summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (signifying two Raptures; the first door is mentioned in Rev. 3:8; 4:1). Verily I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

So the earthquakes, wars and rumours of wars, false Christs, famine, pestilence, increased all during the course of this age. Then in 1967, we had the SIGN OF THE END OF THE AGE. From there to the end of the age is one 40-year generation. The next SIGN to the world will be the Pre-Trib Rapture. Jesus described this in Mt. 24:37-25:13. The wise servants will be caught up to be with the Lord. The foolish servants will be left behind for chastisement during the Tribulation, but will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture as the sunteleia, full end, of this age comes and the millennial Day of the Lord begins.

In Lu. 21:24-28, we see other SIGNS: "and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Jerusalem was fully in Israeli hands in 1967. "And there shall be SIGNS in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars."

We are seeing these in our days. The polar hexagon found on Saturn and the Sun, the blood-red moons on feast days, comets crossing in the Rosh Satan, head of Satan, comet pieces impacting Jupiter, the gigantic gamma ray bursters in Bootes, which means HE COMETH, the Moon occulting Regulus, the king-star in Leo, which stands for the Lion of the tribe of Judah, and then being close to Denebola, which means THE JUDGE OR LORD WHO COMES QUICKLY, and now a new star in Argo, which means A COMPANY OF TRAVELERS.

This year, there is a growing intensity in these signs too. The largest GRB was Jan. 23, the second largest May 10. The Moon occulted Regulus, which means THE TREADING UNDERFOOT on May 21. The new star in Argo was found May 22. The Moon was close to Denebola May 23. These three marked the season of Pentecost.

Things seem to be building to a climax. The next dates I am watching expectantly are May 30, the Orthodox Pentecost, and May 31, Memorial Day, 365 days after Sivan 6, 5758 (May 31, 1998), and 10 days after Sivan 6, 5759. Enoch was 365 when he was raptured, and Rev. 2:10 says, "ye shall have tribulation (trial, testing) ten days."

Stay ready and keep watching. Maranatha

Incoming Email

Marilyn, thanks for responding to my e-mail. Regarding God existing eternally (forever), why can't the Universe have existed forever? Most people that believe in a god say they do so because they say the Universe has to have a creator. Why not the creator?

According to THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE GODS by Michael Jordan (not the basketball player), their are or have been over 2,500 gods worshiped. How many of those gods do you believe in? How did you choose which gods to worship? If you grew up in India, don't you think you would probably be a Hindu? Best regards

My reply

> why can't the Universe have existed forever?

Because John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

> How many of those gods do you believe in?

One. I Tim. 2:5,6 says, "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

> How did you choose which gods to worship?

God's prophecies come true 100%. Jesus was resurrected from the dead as proof of who he is. No other religion has such. Because of the 100% track record on prophecies, I believe the Bible in its original editions is 100% truth. It tells me that Jesus gave his life to take the death penalty I deserved for sin in my place that I might live. All I have to do is have faith in Him. Rom. 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

I'd like to know what holds you back from accepting Christ? He really lived, died, and was resurrected from the dead. What more proof do you need? And what have you got to lose?

Josephus, the first century Jewish historian, spoke of him. He said, "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day" (Ant. XVIII.III.3).

> If you grew up in India, don't you think you would probably be a Hindu?

Not if I had heard of Christ who died for me. There are Christians in India. If someone really wants to know the true God, God will get the necessary information to that person one way or another. The saved that appear before the throne in Heaven are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). If I was a Hindu, I would be out of luck, and this is eternal life we are talking about here. To be lost eternally is a long time.

The reason we are on this Earth is to see if we will accept Christ or not. This life is a test. God gave us a manual, the Bible, so that by reading it, we have a chance to pass our test. If we neglect reading it, the loss is ours when we fail the test. If you decide to read the manual, I suggest you start with the book of John. In John 20:31, he said, "these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Being saved is easy. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Please tell me that you accept Christ as your own personal Saviour.

Incoming Email

I have read "The end of the Age" and have checked out your web site. I do enjoy your understanding of the scripture and the enlightenment to the body of Christ in your teachings.

I have never been convinced, although I have considered the probability, of Christ taking the bride before the tribulation. Your timeline seems so scripturally logical except for the allowing of the probability that Yeshua may take us during or near the end of the great tribulation. One thing I know for sure is that the antichrist will 'make war with the saints' while reigning in power. We know for sure that there will be saints here. The thing about being overly sure that Christ will take us before the tribulation can lead to the potential great deception. For if one is very sure that Christ will come before the tribulation, he may be confused by the arrival of the false prophet. He will come as an angel of light and would even deceive the very elect if possible.

I hope that Christ will take us before the tribulation but I do realize scripturally that I must be ready to endure tribulation for his name sake. I know he will come before the wrath is poured out in judgment on Earth, that is my blessed hope.  I guess my overall comment would be that no one has scripturally proven to me the early ascension of the saints before the seven year tribulation. You, above all other eschatological authors have the most convincing argument. If there is any scriptures that best prove this belief I do wish you could list them.

Keep studying the Scriptures and looking up! It is a blessing to read your writing. Hoping he does come quickly. God bless

My reply

A blessed hope that includes the Tribulation is not very blessed in my eyes. A blessed hope is to "be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36).

The Pre-Trib Rapture is even seen in the OT. Isa. 57:1,2 shows "that the righteous is taken away FROM the evil TO COME." You have to latch on to God's promises. He will bring them all to pass. If he says it, he means it.

Rev. 3:10 says that our patience will be rewarded. He will "keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (trial, Tribulation) that shall come upon all the world." Do you believe that he means what he says?

The first group to be seen in Heaven is in Rev. 5:9. It is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." It is there before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. Thus, these church saints are in Heaven before the Tribulation even begins.

We see the Tribulation saints in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. They are out of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues." They are there in Heaven after the sixth seal is broken in Rev. 6:12, but before the seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8.

The first group are made "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10). The second group "serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15).

The first group are those that are taken up as in the days of Noah. Those that are left behind that day have a chance to be caught up just before the seven trumpet judgments hit Earth. That second Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire falls that same day. The ones that get left behind the second time do not get another chance to be caught up. Read Lu. 17:28-36. Verse 29 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." The fire and brimstone will accompany the second and third trumpet judgments, the asteroid impacts.

You can study what happened to Sodom and the cities of the plain and understand what is going to happen on a bigger scale on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. What do you think had enough force to depress the bedrock 2,615 feet in the Dead Sea? Miles of lava near the lower end of the Dead Sea bears mute testimony to the severity of that asteroid impact.

As for saints being on Earth during the Tribulation, they are the foolish Laodicean virgins that got left behind plus new converts to Christianity. The 144,000 Jewish saints are included.

> The thing about being overly sure that Christ will take us before the tribulation can
> lead to the potential great deception. For if one is very sure that Christ will come
> before the tribulation, he may be confused by the arrival of the false prophet. He will
> come as an angel of light and would even deceive the very elect if possible.

The Pre-Trib Rapture theory is not a great deception. The deception is if Satan can make you think the Pre-Trib Rapture is a deception. If you can't tell the difference between being lifted up by a force and looking at an angel of light, you might be deceived. I think you could tell the difference in one big hurry.

It might help if you understood II Thess. 2:1-3 correctly. In the NSRB, it says, "NOW we beseech you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM (the Pre-Trib Rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord (the Millennium) is present. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away (departure, i.e., Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND), the son of Perdition."

Departure is the Greek "apostasia." It means leaving, as in a divorcement, "apostacion." It is "OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM." We are leaving FIRST. The wicked one will be revealed SECOND. After he confirms the covenant there are 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) before the very first day of the millennial Day of the Lord is over.

Elijah and Moses arrive at the beginning of the Tribulation. Mal. 4:5 says, "I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" (the Millennium).

We are not to watch for the appearance of the wicked one. We are to watch for the Lord from Heaven. He will gather us together unto himself FIRST. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the next item on the agenda.

FIRST, We will be called up in Rev. 4:1. The Tribulation "must be HEREAFTER" (Rev. 4:1). We will be part of that group in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. Only after that can the SECOND thing take place, the revealing of the wicked one when he confirms the 7-year peace treaty by signing it. The other man who signs it with him rides forth on a white horse in Rev. 6:2. The wicked one is called in Rev. 6:8, "Death and Hell (Satan) followed with him." He will be Satan possessed. Neither of these men will be in their Tribulation positions when the Rapture occurs. The first will be in an office, but not as head of the world government. Both of these men have to be in their final jobs BEFORE the Tribulation saints are caught up by Rev. 7:14.

I sure hope you can grasp this and hang on to it. There may not be much time left, and Satan would just love to be able to convince you that the Pre-Trib Rapture was a deception.

Some say that the Pre-Trib Rapture theory is a relatively modern concept. That is not true. In his just-under-1500-word sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem (c.374-627) said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together BEFORE the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

I think the first Rapture will be seen. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

Those that see it and trust in the Lord have the chance to be caught up in the second Rapture. At that time, ALL the saints will have been caught up to Heaven. At that time, the entire Body of Christ will be in Heaven. The first foot to be born seems to be the Church saints. The last foot to be born seems to be the Tribulation saints. Agape

Incoming Email

The Rapture will Occur during the Feast Of Roshashana on Sept 11, 1999 . As Pentacost was fulfilled long ago.

You need to refer to the study of the greek./hebrew teachings for more info... But you were right about one thing, the rapture happens this year. God Bless

My reply

I sure hope you are right about the year. Also, if we go past this month, I'll sure be hoping you are right about Rosh HaShana.

Right now, it seems to me that the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Marriage of the Lamb do take place on Rosh HaShana/Feast of Trumpets. However, on that day, when the angels gather the Tribulation saints from one end of the Earth to the other, they also gather a group from one end of Heaven to the other (Mk. 13:27). The group gathered from Heaven got there ahead of the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Those of the Pre-Wrath Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. Those of the Pre-Trib Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. Since it looks like the Pre-Wrath Rapture is on Rosh HaShana, those already in Heaven might have been caught up at an earlier feast. The only one of the seven feasts that fits the clues in Song of Sol. 2:10-14 is Pentecost.

Christ is the Firstfruits. We cannot go to Heaven before Firstfruits. The only feast between Firstfruits and the Feast of Trumpets on Rosh HaShana is Pentecost. Pentecost has to do with the wheat harvest, and we are called wheat. It seems fitting, but we are not told definitely that the Rapture will be on a feast day. It just seems likely for the Lord planned other important events to fall on feast days. The feasts are rehearsals of coming events.

There is a reference in ancient writings that Enoch was raptured on his birthday on Pentecost too. If that is correct, it would prefigure the Rapture being on the Church's birthday. It would also prefigure the preceding year. Here is what we find in "The Secrets of the Book of Enoch," chapter 68.


1Enoch was born on the sixth day of the month Tsivan, and lived three hundred and sixty-five years.

2He was taken up to heaven on the first day of the month Tsivan and remained in heaven sixty days.

3He wrote all these signs of all creation, which the Lord created, and wrote three hundred and sixty-six books, and handed them over to his sons and remained on earth thirty days, and was again taken up to heaven on the sixth day of the month Tsivan, on the very day and hour when he was born.

4As every man's nature in this life is dark, so are also his conception, birth, and departure from this life.

5At what hour he was conceived, at that hour he was born, and at that hour too he died.

6Methosalam and his brethren, all the sons of Enoch, made haste, and erected an altar at that place called Achuzan, whence and where Enoch had been taken up to heaven."

Since "He wrote all these signs of all creation," I wonder if that means that he drew the Zodiac. All creation includes the whole Universe. We are told that God named the stars. Maybe Enoch wrote down those names for posterity.

If the Pre-Trib Rapture is not on a feast day, and Song of Sol. 2:10-14 has nothing to do with the Rapture, then Cheshvan 27, when Noah was told "Go forth of the ark" (Gen. 8:16), would seem likely. Cheshvan 27, 5759 is Nov. 6, 1999. Exactly one solar year before that is the date when Noah entered the Ark, Cheshvan 17, 5758, which also fell on Nov. 6 last year. The ten days of Rev. 2:10 might then apply to the ten days between Cheshvan 17 (when one Jewish year is up) and Cheshvan 27 (when one solar year is up).

However, I still think it is very likely that the Song of Sol. 2:10-14 gives us the clues that set the Rapture in the spring of the year. Verse 8 starts out, "The voice of my beloved!" At the Rapture, the Lord will return with a shout (I Thess. 4:16).

Song of Sol. 2:8 continues, "behold, HE COMETH (Heb. bo, as Bootes, the constellation, is from bo) leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills." That doesn't fit anyone as well as Christ. The description of the Bridegroom in Song of Sol. 5:10-16 fits Christ too.

When he cometh, he says, "Rise up...and come away. Winter is past and the rain is over and gone. There are green figs and tender grapes. Only two things that I can think of fit this time slot, Pentecost and when the spies went into the promised land 10 days after Pentecost. That was the time of firstripe grapes.

If Song of Sol. 2:8 applies to the Pre-Trib Rapture, wouldn't it eliminate all feasts but Pentecost because it says that the rain is over and gone? Because of this one thing, it looks like the Rapture would have to be during the dry season.

Incoming Email

FWD: unsubscribe & READ, To: Webmaster:

I saw your email to Marilyn Agee, and her response. You should know that her sole authority is the Bible -- not what others have written. I would like to suggest that you research thoroughly how she has come to the conclusions she has. She doesn't rely on what others have written (other than maybe supporting authentic writings of Josephus) -- and she consistently responds to opposing views with scriptural authority. All the other stuff (bible codes, astronomical info, etc. is also just supporting information and is NOT how she came to those conclusions). As to the rapture date? She's maintained all along that it is the weakest part of the puzzle but it should happen before the tribulation begins in 2001. Her findings as to the tribulation timeline chronology is astounding and there's little if any room for error -- it will happen that way. PLEASE read her material -- I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

My reply

Thanks. Karen Linton sent a fundamental Christian forum "a message 35 times." (It was not to me.) That was not appreciated, and is not the way a Christian should act. We should love the brethren and do unto others as we would have them do to us. Each and every one of us has the right to our own beliefs and opinions. Agape

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