Pro and Con 338

Uploaded 6-8-99

Incoming Email

I look forward to your web site every morning when I get in to work. This morning is the first morning, since I was introduced to you (through prayer in a book store only a couple or so months ago) that it won't access. I have you on my bookmark. Everything looks normal except the Netscape is unable to bring you on screen. Don't leave me!!! I share you with my sister ---- (she has no computer) and my son --- (also no computer). Lots of printouts, though, they can read. I keep looking up and wondering, "Is it today???" We DO believe HIS COMING IS IMMINENT and we sure want to be ready with plenty of oil in our lamps. You are truly my inspiration and I am truly THANKFUL TO OUR LORD JESUS for leading me to you NOW. I keep you in my prayers. One question...Do you think an advance warning of HIS COMING of say 2 or 3 days will happen? I was thinking about that when the weather report for Vermont is 94 degrees today and my son in Fla. said it was 75 degrees there! There are lots of other strange weather reportings. Stay well--you and your husband. In His Love

My reply

pe.net must have been down. I could not get my email either. Record these mirror sites for future reference:

http://www.pe.net/~mjagee
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/5341
http://members.xoom.com/marilyn_agee

We might get a warning of seven days as Noah did. We will just have to keep watching and see what develops.

Weather has been crazy. The morning paper had a picture of snow on the highest part of the local mountains.

Thanks for your kind words. We will try to stay well, you too.

Incoming Email

...Luke 21.24...It is very clear that Israel is, once again (and for the last time), taken into captivity at the mid-point of the trib....

The time is specific in Luke 21.20-24: Jerusalem surrounded by armies: Jews to flee to the mountains: Jews dying by the sword: Jews led away captive: Jerusalem in the hands of the Gentiles until "that day" (approx. three years later). Then, around this same time (if not the same day), Daniel 11. 40-45 begins: "At the time of the end shall the king of the south (Egypt) push at him:"...

My reply

Last night, I was reading Lu. 21:7-36 in the very literal Concordant Version. They tried to use one word to translate one word, so it is a study Bible, a bit choppy, not as smooth reading as the KJV, but interesting. In verse 7, the KJV has "what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?" The Conc. has "What is the sign whenever these things may be ABOUT to be occurring? (all emphasis is mine). The "about" seems to belong there for Green's Interlinear has "what will be the sign when these things are ABOUT to take place."

What I am getting at is that, in this chapter, there seem to be two times when SIGNS appear, what happened in 66 AD and what is happening today. Both times, something is ABOUT to take place. The former may be when the Christians escaped to Pella. Do you know exactly when that happened? I keep looking for it in Josephus, but have not found it. For us, the Rapture is ABOUT to take place.

I will quote the Concordant unless something else in listed. Lu. 21:9f says, "Now whenever you should be hearing battles and turbulences you may not be dismayed, for these things must occur first, but not immediately is the consummation" (of the age). "Roused shall be nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. Besides, there shall be great quakes and, in places, famines and pestilences. There shall be fearful sights besides GREAT SIGNS ALSO FROM HEAVEN. Yet before all these things they shall be laying their hands on you and they shall be persecuting you."

These GREAT SIGNS FROM HEAVEN seem to specifically apply to the signs in 66 AD, but also prefigure our days, just as wars do.

Jesus told them, "they shall be putting some of you to death." Then he said, "Now whenever you may be perceiving Jerusalem surrounded by encampments (the seige of Jerusalem by the forces of Titus), then know that her desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains...for days of vengeance are these, to fulfill all that is written."

Here it is seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies, not the abomination put in the temple, as in Mt. 24:15 and Mk. 13:14. There is a difference in Luke 21. It is not the same as the other accounts.

"And they shall be falling by the edge of the sword and shall be led into captivity into all nations." That took place in 70 AD. "And Jerusalem shall be trodden by the nations, UNTIL the eras of the NATIONS may be fulfilled." The KJV has "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the GENTILES be fulfilled." This brings us to 1967, when Jerusalem was taken back by Israel in the Six-Day War. All from this point to the fig tree parable is in our days. It takes place from 1967 to 2007, and was prefigured by the 40 years from 30 AD to 70 AD.

"And (in our days) there shall be SIGNS IN THE SUN AND THE MOON AND THE CONSTELLATIONS." There has been an unusual blast of energy from the sun. A hexagon feature has been detected under the surface of the sun's north pole, and strong sunspot activity is expected at the turn of the year to add to our Y2K problems. There have been "blood" moons. We had the largest gamma ray burst ever Jan. 23, 1999, in Bootes (HE COMETH). We have had the new star, Nova Velorum (THE SAILS) appear in the ship Argo (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELLERS). Now Eta Carinai (THE KEEL) of Argo, Eta being "among the most massive and energetic in the known universe, equal in size to 100 suns," has increased at least double in brightness. Keep watching, who knows what is yet to come. No wonder Jesus said to "look up" (Lu. 21:28, KJV).

The next part of the passage in Luke 21 seems to be going on right now. It continues, "and on the earth pressure of nations in perplexity."

The next part could be talking about the beginning of the Tribulation, for seas represent nations (Rev. 17:15). It says, "at the resounding of the sea and the shaking." The first beast of Rev. 13 rises out of the sea (nations).

Following that, the account sounds like it ends with Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven. It says, "at the chilling of men from fear and apprehensiveness of that which is coming on the inhabited earth, for the POWERS of the heavens shall be shaken."

I think the next part refers to The Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). It is the day of the Sign of the Son of Man, Rapture II, and the Day of God's Wrath. It says, "And then they shall be seeing the Son of Mankind coming in a cloud with power and much glory."

Then He sets forth our hope of escaping all these things. He says, "Now at the BEGINNING OF THESE OCCURRENCES, unbend and lift up your heads, because your deliverance (i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture) is drawing near.

After the 'eras of the nations" were fulfilled in 1967, the very next things mentioned are the "SIGNS IN THE SUN AND THE MOON AND THE CONSTELLATIONS. To me, this is exciting. How could the mind-bogglingly huge gamma ray burst of Jan. 23, 1999, not be a SIGN? It is called the Second Big Bang. It was in the constellation Bootes (HE COMETH). To fulfill the plural "SIGNS," we have had the new star, Nova Velorum (THE SAILS) and the doubling in brightness of Eta Carinae (THE KEEL) in the ship Argo (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELLERS). Our "deliverance is drawing near."

"And He told them a parable: Perceive the fig tree (Israel) and all the trees. Whenever they should be already budding (growing; Israel did in the Six-Day War), you, observing for yourselves, know it is because SUMMER IS ALREADY NEAR. Thus YOU ALSO, whenever YOU may be perceiving these things occurring, know that NEAR is the kingdom of God. Verily, I am saying to you that by no means may this generation be passing by till all should be occurring.

This sounds like the Rapture could be either in the spring or summer. In the spring, He is near.

"Now take heed to YOURSELVES, lest at some time your hearts should be burdened with crapulence and drunkenness and the worries of life's affairs, and that day (the Tribulation) may be standing by you unawares, as a trap, for it will intrude on all those sitting on the surface of the ENTIRE EARTH. Now be vigilant, on every occasion beseeching that YOU may be PREVAILING TO ESCAPE (ekpheugo, exit away from) ALL THESE THINGS which are ABOUT to occur, and to stand in front of the Son of Mankind."

I think the Tribulation begins in 2001 (1967 + 40 - 7 = 2000, but those days are shortened to 2300, Dan. 8:14). However, if we were roughing it out, we would say Tishri 1, in 2007 - 7 = Tishri 1 in 2000. It seems that the time slot within which we are to exit is between now and Tishri 1 in 2000.

Rev. 3:8,10 says, "I am aware of your acts. Lo! Before you have I granted an OPEN DOOR, which no one is able to lock, for you have a little power, and you keep My word and you do not disown My name...Seeing that you keep the word of My endurance, I, also, will be KEEPING YOU OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL (the Tribulation) which is ABOUT to be coming on the WHOLE INHABITED EARTH to try those dwelling on the earth. I am coming swiftly! Hold what you have, that no one may be taking your wreath (crown)."

Give this some thought, and let me know what you think. Agape

Incoming Email

I just prayed that you are well. Your page is our internet starting page. Our central link, over the last four or five weeks, since I first surfed in. So much accumulated knowledge, from so many different sources, all scripturally based. The thought occurred to me, that you may have been raptured. Sadly for me and anyone else still left behind,but very happy for you. Your absence on the net is noticed by hundreds if not thousands.I pray you and your family are just taking some well deserved time off, and will return to continue your work of divining GODs word for us. This page has been a much needed wake up call for me. I've also been converted into a believer, in the blessed hope that I won't have to be beheaded during the tribulation.

My reply

I have had Pro and Con 335 and 336 up for awhile. Try them again. There was a capital letter in the index.html fouling up the works. Sorry...

Thanks for your sharing your good news with me. Accepting Christ is the single most important thing in our lives. It is what we were put on Earth to decide--for or against Christ. I thank God that you have gotten in the Body of Christ. Let me know if there is anything I can help you understand. Agape love

Incoming Email

You didn't mention Daniel 12:1 or how it goes on to state what is said in Matthew. If Michael isn't the restrainer what is meant by Daniel 12:1. According to Rev.6:17 the Day of God's Wrath starts just after the opening of the sixth seal.

My reply

Michael is not the restrainer, the Holy Spirit in believers is the restrainer.

Sorry, I meant to tie Dan. 12:1f in better. I was leading up to it and had to stop for awhile and forgot to finish. If Dan. 11:40 is "at the time of the end," and verse 45 is "his end," the day the False Prophet is deposed from office, it is the Day of God's Wrath. This is the day that Dan. 12 is talking about. "AND at that time shall Michael stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble (Day of Jacob's Trouble), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (same day, first day of the Millennium) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." This is the second and last Rapture. It is the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:51,52.

This one single day is the most eventful ever. It is the first day of the Millennial Day of the Lord, the Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Christ's Birthday and Coronation, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the Day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Day of God's Wrath and the day of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

> According to Rev.6:17 the Day of God's Wrath starts just after the opening of the sixth seal.

It does. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place that day between the opening of the sixth and seventh seals. The sixth seal is opened in Rev. 6:12. Those raptured are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. The seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8. As the judge is being seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ, both Heaven and Earth are silent. At the judgment, believers receive their rewards for their belief and the same time that unbelievers on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief, the seven trumpet judgments. Agape

Incoming Email

I would like to ask two questions regarding the pretrib rapture. From what I have read most pretribbers believe that it is the church that is the restrainer of the evil one and must be removed to allow his rise to power. If this is true would you please explain Daniel 12:1 and how after it is stated that Michael is the one who stands up, it goes on to agree with what is said in Matt 24:21?

The second question is how can the entire sevens years tribulation equals the Wrath of God, as most pretribbers believe, when the Bible tells us when His wrath starts in Rev.6:17? Thank you for your time.

My reply

It is the Holy Spirit in the Church that does the restraining. We are the salt of the Earth, and in breadmaking, salt inhibits the growth of leaven.

In II Thess. 2, the Wicked one, the son of perdition, is the False Prophet, "whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thess. 2:9; Rev. 13:13,14). He is not in his final office until Mid-Trib. However, he is revealed when he signs the 7-year covenant at the beginning of the Tribulation.

KJV's day of Christ is supposed to be day of the Lord, as per most major MSS. The millennial Day of the Lord will not come until two things happen (1) the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, and (2) the Wicked One is revealed as the Tribulation begins.

The Day of the Lord will not come until "there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, i.e., the Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).

> explain Daniel 12:1 and how after it is stated that Michael is the
> one who stands up, it goes on to agree with what is said in Matt 24:21?

Mt. 24:21 is the Great Tribulation, which is the last half of the 7 years. Dan. 11:40 is "at the time of the end." Dan. 11:45 is when the Wicked One "shall come to his end." That is the end of the shortened Tribulation, which falls on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14), the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Both the Pre-Wrath Rapture and the Day of God's Wrath are that same day. I think it is the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3; Mal. 2:3), Sept. 13, 2007.

> how can the entire sevens years tribulation equals the Wrath of God

It doesn't. The Day of God's Wrath is the first day of the Millennium.

Incoming Email

A Second Pentecost, possibly?
I had this thought tonight. In Numbers 9:10-11 the scriptures speak of the second Passover. One of the reasons for keeping the second Passover is: "be in a journey afar off". The first Passover was for the remberance of an ancient event with the fulfillment being: "The Lamb of God" sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice was the fulfillment for the first Passover, but the second Passover, could it have significance for the end times. If you calculate Pentecost, from the point of the second Passover, this puts the date, for a "second Pentecost", at June 19 or 20. The first Pentecost was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was given in Peter's day, but what if a "second Pentecost" has an end time fulfillment? Possibly the rapture?

I thought of this after I watched J.R. Church, tonight, on TV. He was talking of all the different things that people thought would happen this last May. Like: May 1 - Martial Law, May 4 - Arafat was to declare a state, May 21 - China told all it's people of importance to be out of the USA by that date; possible USA war with China, May 23 - Pentecost rapture, etc. May was definitely a month of high prophetic expectations, that just didn't pan out as most expected. That is when I began thinking of the "second Pentecost".

Love your site! I know you are working hard, spreading the good news, of the SOON return of our Saviour! May the LORD bless you and keep you. A brother in Christ

My reply

It is something to consider.

Since only the second Passover is mentioned in Scripture, I don't know if any other feast could be put off one month. Passover and its portrayal of Christ's sacrifice for us is of paramount importance. That is probably why it alone has this provision.

However, it does seem strange right now that the Astronomical Pentecost is about one month later. In any event, we should stay strong and ready, and keep watching.

We do not want to be like the Jews that revolted in 66 AD, the year they had miraculous signs. We can see that summer is near.

Mt. 24:33, in the Concordant Version, says, "...you know that summer is near. Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near--at the doors."

The new star, Nova Velorum (the sails), in the ship Argo (the company of travellers), plus the doubling of brightness of Eta Carina (the keel), makes me think of when Peter walked on the water. It was the fourth watch of the night. Peter doubted and started to sink when the Lord said, "Come." He called to Jesus to save him. The Lord reached out his hand to him, and together they got into the SHIP. "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret (garden of the prince)(Mt. 14:33,34).

We want to stay in the ship (i.e., in Christ), worshipping the Lord until he says, "Come." Then go to him with no doubts to hinder us. Our Gennesaret will be heavenly.

Incoming Email

...God Bless you....I was interested in reading some of your replies re the book of Esther. I am not a prophet, for sure! but felt I had a revelation from the book of Esther awhile back. My question.....Esther 2: 16- "so Esther was taken to King Ahasuerus, into his royal palace, in the tenth month, which is the month of Tebeth, in the seventh year of his reign."

"taken to.......into his royal palace....." could this mean the rapture?

"in the tenth month, which is the month of Tebeth"........what month is that on OUR calendar?

"in the seventh year of his reign".........what would this specifically 'refer to/mean'? thank you Marilyn. Ready and Waiting. One Day Closer Home

My reply

> "taken to.......into his royal palace....." could this mean the rapture?

I thought it might, but it could represent Rapture II, which I think is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007).

> "in the tenth month, which is the month of Tebeth"..what month is that on OUR calendar?

Dec./Jan. Next Teveth 10 is Dec. 19, 1999.

> "in the seventh year of his reign".........what would this specifically 'refer to/mean'?

It might suggest the seventh year of the Tribulation. Agape

Incoming Email

I am disappointed that you did not place the full transcript of our email on your site (you left off the last emails). I think this shows that you did not want others to see the full account of our discussion.

My reply

Sorry, but I have not had time to answer all 185 emails in my Inbox plus all those I put in another file when I tried to use my Disk Drive that didn't work. However, since what you are after is to get it posted. Here it is. BTW, I have never corresponded with Mr. Hoah. Someone sent me something he wrote.
---
Marilyn,
I hear what you are saying, but you still are not addressing the possibility that you are undermining the faith of others by speculating wrongly.  And I do recall last year how the hoped for day shifted from Pentecost to Orthodox Pentecost to dates in the fall, etc.  Sound eschatological analysis keeps us from jumping to conclusions that are hoped for yet do not fit all the clues to the puzzle.  Many times last year I observed reasoning being hoped for instead of reasoning that acknowledged all of the pieces of the puzzle.  Instead of cautious reasoning I observed hopeful speculation.  I remember your reaction when I proposed that you read Avi Ben Mordecai's book and then finally bought a copy for you.  You were adamant that he was wrong on certain points and then after Pentecost 1998 came and went you changed your mind about some of Avi's conclusions.  All I am suggesting is that you temper your gut reaction "pat answer" and look at the possibility that the answer is still out there, we just are not conclusive about what it is because not enough of the pieces are there.  You may also want to look back over all of the times you feel God guided your CAPS LOCK KEY and see if they all were accurate and all support a single conclusion.  If they don't, I don't think we can assume that God is guiding your keyboard.  If they do, maybe it would be a worthwhile effort to see what all of theses CAPS LOCK HINTS point to.  And all of these people who had dreams or encounters saying the rapture is in 1998 or 1999?  If they did and it didn't happen, surely we cannot say the origin is of God.

  Also we haven't heard the significance of the Gamma Ray Burst.  What does it mean that we are now beyond a 120 days from the last one?  What else is not currently happening that we would expect to be a possible event around the time of the rapture? Perhaps "Jerusalem being as a cup of trembling".  Although we can see the precursors of this happening even now.  Also do we really think that God would rapture us on the USA's Father's day?  What kind of message does this send to the rest of the Christians of the world.  Are we still convinced that the USA is really God's favorite?  I wouldn't think so.  I would say we are probably high on God's list of nations to deal with.  We are a leading promoter of Homosexuality, Pornography, Abortion, Murder, Adultery, Divorce, and so many more.  The USA's father's day does not fit into any credible eschatological analysis that I could support at this point.  I am 100% behind the search for truth, not sustaining paradigms.  Your website faces a critical juncture especially as the time draws near, which it is.  Please move your group from sensationalism to solid analysis.  I know what I am talking about.  I have a B.A. in Theology and have studied for many years (not that it will guarantee my righteousness or wisdom, only Jesus Christ does that for me).  I even studied under Herman Hoeh who you have corresponded with on several occasions.   And if you know anything about the group Herman Hoeh was a part of, you know that they were into supporting paradigms no matter how erroneous their foundation.  But, I also realize and have heard Herman Hoeh comment that "...if you believe everything WWCG has to say, you haven't studied enough..." or something to that effect.  And I have found that to be so very, very, true.

  You and I are not immune to being firmly convicted and committed to erroneous ideas.  Getting over those and continuing to pursue credible truth is our goal, is it not?  Not creating false hope, not clouding the issue with reasoning that does not have much foundation.  I hope I am wrong about your astronomical Pentecost, but I see no biblical support to this concept.  Now I am not debating whether or not we have tracked the days properly, but what you are proposing is that Passover, The Days of Unleavened Bread, etc are all on the wrong day, and therefore the 50 day count is also wrong.  I just can't say I think this is a credible explanation in knowing when the rapture will occur.  And this is clearly well beyond winter, and to my knowledge, beyond the Wheat Harvest, is it not?  Are the figs still tender (green or ripe)?  When do the turtle doves migrate?  Which kind of turtledove?  Another question to ask is if the two women grinding at the mill, would they be doing that on a High Holy Day?  Or is it ok for them to do so since they possibly represent two gentile Christian churches?  Perhaps the day will have more obvious indicators than those we speculate about today.

Incoming Email

Please pray for my boy Bill. (Barry Lunsford) I would like to ask all of you to please lift up my 12 year old son Billy in your prayers this week. He will undergo surgery on his hip on Thursday, June 10th, at about 4 PM. He has Perthe's disease (as does his brother Benjamin) and this is his third operation. He is expected to be in a cast from the hips down to his feet (for the second time), with his legs separated by a brace. He is in a lot of pain, and his spirit is weak. Please pray that God will give him the strength to bear the pain and strengthen his spirit, and that the doctor's hands would be guided by angels. I thank you all in advance for your prayers, and may God, Who sees our hearts, bless you.

Incoming Email

I was reading a report on the May 10 GRB in which it says it's location has been pinned down to the constellation known as Chamaeleon, in the Southern Hemisphre. Do we know any of the major stars from Bullingers in this constellation. The story is at
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast18may99_1.htm

My reply

Thanks. Chamaeleon is shown on the chart on p. 43 in Robin Kerrod's "Star Guide." The two stars near the C in Chamaeleon make a right triangle with Eta Carinae and Canopus. It is nearer the S. polar area than the other two. I can't find the star names in the material I have.

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Updated 6-8-99