Pro and Con 339

Uploaded 6-9-99

Incoming Email

Jim Bramlett probably posted the details on the 5Doves site. Let's join with him in praying for Carrie Wright, her husband Ed and her son, Jim. Ed's "heart continues to run from 140 to 180 beats per minute. He can't breathe, is weak, etc. Jim, their "16 year old son, is being placed in Juvenile Detention Center (awaiting placement in Boot Camp) for continued use of marijuana.

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Re: time line (previous email on 332)
Thank you Marilyn for the response, you do make a strong argument for pre-trib. I hope you are right. God bless

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I have been reading your pros and cons for a long time and find them very interesting and food for thought,but i have a different opinion when it comes to the virgins without enough oil.

I believe this refers to the jews, because they have never excepted jesus as lord and saviour. they would not have the holy spirit without jesus. I believe the second rapture will be the jews and anyone else that has gotten saved during the tribulation. I am not a bible scholar and i could be wrong, but as long as we have jesus we can have different opinions about some things and still go to heaven. I put alot of trust in romans chapter 7: and chapter 8: when i read them and understood them i had peace in my sole, and i know some day soon we will both be in heaven.

My reply

None of us have the Holy Spirit in us until we accept Christ.

If the virgins refered only to the Jews, we would be out of luck in earning the right to be part of the Bride of Christ. Yet, in II Cor. 11:2, Paul told the Greeks of Corinth, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste VIRGIN to Christ." He told the Romans, "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be MARRIED to another, even to him who is raised from the dead" (Rom. 7:4).

The church is is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. We are all one in Christ.

Rom. 8:1 says, "THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus; WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT."

> as long as we have jesus we can have different
> opinions about some things and still go to heaven.

You are so right. The only thing that can eventually keep us out of Heaven is not accepting Christ. We are bound to have different opinions on other things. Discussion in agape love is healthy. We can learn from each other.

Incoming Email

(From Finland)
The incoming e-mail (P/C 336) provoked some thoughts. It might well be that for some reason they are planning to "improve" the UN apparatus by adding the security council permanent members to 10, so that they better represent the world population. This process could be accompanied by changing the secretary generals role and maybe even his/her title to prime minister.

This change could be started by choosing first the new "World Prime Minister", who would them form, or assist in forming the new security council. Indeed, it is a possibility that this is the way it is going to be. What a "beautiful" way to create a world gov. it would be. And also would have a prophetic sound on it. Let us see!

My reply

Somehow, they seem destined to end up with 10 subsidiary kings. I hadn't thought about them being members of the Security Council. Since the world has been divided into 10 regions, I thought maybe each region would have a leader. Time will tell.

Incoming Email

"Nisan 1," according to the Talmud (a collection of writings that constitute Jewish civil and religious law), "is the New Year for the computation of the reign of kings and for festivals."

Several things occured on Nisan 1 "the first day of the first month"
1. The dedication of the tabernacle in the wilderness; Exodus 40:17.
2. The cleansing of the temple by King Hezekiah; 2 Chronicles 29:2-3 & 17.
3.Ezra and the exiles begin their return from Babylon; Ezra 7:9
4. The decree was given to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem; Nehemiah 2:1-8.
"Start of the 1st Week of Daniel"
5. (future, I believe) The cleansing of the Millennial Temple; Ezekiel 45:18

At the end of the 69th week Adar 30, the 70th Week should have started but as we know it was postponed. Whatever week started allowed Jesus to be crucified on that Nisan 14, fourteen days later, (the real day for the Passover as opposed to Nisan 15). "Messiah was cut off"

I agree with you that the rapture is near, but I believe there will be some slack time between the rapture and the start of the 70th. I believe Mr.666 has to make his showing and will bring peace to Kosovo and wherever and become the #1 media darling of all time in that slack time. I believe the signing of the Mideast Treaty will start the 70th. Rapture June 20 is OK by my figures too.

Something to think about. Sept. 9, 1999 is a Y2K date....9/9/99. If Russia invades on 9/8/99 to keep their military computers from being useless the next day "7 months [30 x 7 = 210 days] of burying the dead" brings us to Apr. 5, 2000. The next day is Nisan 1. The start of the 70th Week ????? A good day to dedicate the tabernacle of David.....again????? Things aren't looking too good between us and Russia right now.

I'm of the school that the Russian invasion comes at the beginning of the Trib or between the rapture and start of the 70th. The 7 years they burn the weapons will be the 70th. This does not create any problems with my Holy Spirit given wisdom, but it really could be anytime. Scripture is nobody's private interpretation. It how the Spirit leads us individually.

Also, the red heifer (Numbers 19:1) Israel has needs to be sacrificed real soon or it's not a heifer anymore. It was born Elul 24 (9/8/96). 4 years is too old.

Keep looking up...Our redemption draws neigh.

My reply

The start of the 70 weeks of Daniel was not the decree of Artaxerxes. It was when Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. Isa. 45:24-28 says, "Thus saith the LORD...that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof...That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." I do not know the month or day of the month, but I believe the year was BC 454.

Dan. 9:26 says, "And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off." How long after is not stated.

> I believe there will be some slack time between the rapture and the start of the 70th.

I agree. In Rev. 17:12, at the time of the Rapture, the 10 kings have no kingdom as yet. In Rev. 13:1, they are crowned as the Tribulation begins.

> I believe the signing of the Mideast Treaty will start the 70th.

I think so too.

> Rapture June 20 is OK by my figures too.

I hope it happens then, but I am not confident that it will.

> Things aren't looking too good between us and Russia right now.

They are not looking good in Russia, either. The people are starving.

> I'm of the school that the Russian invasion comes at the beginning of the
> Trib or between the rapture and start of the 70th.

It is the Day of God's Wrath. Ezek. 38:18-20 says, "at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken...the mountains (two asteroid pieces, Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground."

I'm looking up, and waiting to see what will develop. These are exciting times.

Incoming Email

I follow the pro`s and con`s regularly. It seems many of your detractors do too. I want to make an analogy that I see. This search for understanding of scriptural clues to end time events reminds me of those radio riddles that we`ve all heard of. Over the weeks of the contest, more and more clues or riddles are added and as the listeners call in with their guesses, the picture begins to come clearer. The clues are obscure enough to keep people guessing right up until the end, but those who are following them finally are able to put them all together and someone identifies or locates the prize.

Rather than putting down those who are earnestly searching for understanding, I believe we should be actively looking for the next most likely date and studying scripture to see how prophesy lines up with current events, signs in the heavens, and our own inner convictions.

I think you are doing a great service to all who will open their eyes and get themselves prepared to meet their saviour. In His Love

My reply

Thanks. When Jesus says, "Watch," I do my best to watch. I wouldn't want to not watch.

Rev. 3:2-4 in the Concordant Version of the Bible says, "Become watchful, and establish the rest who were about to be dying; for I have not found your acts completed in the sight of My God. Remember, then, how you have obtained, and hear; keep it and repent. If ever, then, you should not be watching, I shall be arriving on you as a thief, and under no circumstances will you be knowing what hour I shall be arriving on you."

James 5:7-9 (Conc.) says, "Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord. Lo! the farmer is waiting for the precious fruit of the land, being patient about it, till it should be getting the early (Tishri) and late (Nisan) showers. You also, then, be patient; establish your hearts, for the presence of the Lord is near. Be not groaning, brethren, against one another, lest you may be judged. Lo! the Judge stands before the doors." Agape

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May the Lord pour out his blessings on you and your family, keeping you safe, healthy and strong, in Jesus's name.

I want to raise a question with you to consider. You have often said something similar to the following (from P&C 336)

----- I hope for June 20. If not then, next Pentecost. I think it has to be when "summer is nigh." ---

This of course comes from Matthew 24:32, Mark 13:28, and Luke 21:30

But consider this conversation:

Marilyn: When can we go on that vacation?
Jim: You know that summer is near

So, I think that it might be possible that it won't happen UNTIL summer (caps mine). Sincerely

My reply

I agree. From the parable of the fig tree, spring or summer sound possible. If Song of Sol. 2:10-14 applies, it won't be in the winter or rainy season, which starts with the former rains in Tishri and ends with the latter rains in Nisan. However, it is when "The flowers appear on the earth." I assume this is the wildflowers that appear on the hills in the spring. After the rains cease, they will start to dry up. This limits how far into summer we could expect it.

"The fig tree putteth forth her green figs" is a limiting factor too. We know that even though it is spring, the middle of Nisan is too soon, for Mark 11:13 says that when Jesus cursed the fig tree, "the time of figs was not yet." There are certainly ripe figs in Av. Grapes begin to ripen in Sivan.

So, from these clues, it seems that Sivan or Tamuz are possible. If we do not go by early July, I will assume that we will probably have to wait until Pentecost, 2000. However, I will remain hopeful and watch in case Song of Sol. 2:10-14 does not apply.

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FROM CAPS, I read the article on the calendar by Ivan Labombarbe. I believe he has the correct, biblical method of calculating the Holy Days. While I was thinking about this last night,something interesting happened. I was thinking that if Nisan is the First month in the establishing of the calendar, and, if Nisan has to be "postponed" due to the requirement that the month of Nisan only starts at the first new moon AFTER the equinox, then what month "takes the place of Nisan?" I remembered that the month of Adar II is the month that is inserted into the calendar during certain years. Then, not knowing when the regular month of Adar was in the sequence, I said to myself....."Then Adar would Have to come right before Nisan in order for Adar II to take the place of Nisan if there was a delay." When I looked at the calendar, sure enough Adar comes right before Nisan. To me, this is confirmation that Labombarbe is correct. The fact that the insertion of Adar II happens in the place of Nisan, making Nisan come after Adar II is proof to me that the history behind this search for the true calendar involves the Jews using Nisan as the FIRST MONTH in setting the calendar.

To quote from Labombarbe ..." A leap year happens NOT AT "REGULATED" times but purely to insure continuity and THAT THE 1ST MONTH OCCURS AFTER THE SPRING EQUINOX." To me, this explains WHEN a leap year will occur and Why it occurs. It makes perfect sense. It keeps the Holy Days in their proper seasons. It is Biblical , being based on the Sun and Moon for the calculations of the new moons and the equinox. Also, it is very clear that it is after the weekly Sabbath that the 50 day count starts on. There are not two Pentecosts---only one. There are not two days for Trumpets---only one. The Jews "added" an extra day to Trumpets just to make sure they did not miss it in the dispersed areas because of not being totally sure of when the new moon is. This year the Feast of Pentecost is on June 20th. It is not the "astronomical" Pentecost. It is not the "second" Pentecost. It is the BIBLICAL FEAST OF PENTECOST.

My reply

I hope that is correct, but I am still mulling over the ramifications. What day of the month of Sivan do you figure he meant for Pentecost this year? Have you figured out how to figure it like he does from his Dark Moon and number of days in a month on his charts?

He picked May 31 for last Year's Pentecost. That fell on Sunday and was Sivan 6 on the Talmudic calendar. Next year, he picked June 11. That will be Sunday, Sivan 8 on the Talmudic.

I would like to have his whole set of calendars for 2001 to 2008, so I can count the actual number of days to see if the 2300 days fits between the Feast of Weeks in 2001 and the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, by inclusive reckoning. Using the Talmudic calendar, everything fits like a glove. Will it using his calendar?

Incoming Email

God bless you for being a shining light and a trumpet blast for people to see and hear the Truth! I, like some of the other readers became nervous when there didn't appear to be an updated P&C and then when I couldn't access your homepage at pe.net. (I've since bookmarked the mirrored sites.) Your updated P&Cs are a needed daily staple of spirtual reading for me.

I almost fell off my seat when I read the following from P&C 338...

The new star, Nova Velorum (the sails), in the ship Argo (the company of travellers), plus the doubling of brightness of Eta Carina (the keel), makes me think of when Peter walked on the water. It was the fourth watch of the night. Peter doubted and started to sink when the Lord said, "Come." He called to Jesus to save him. The Lord reached out his hand to him, and together they got into the SHIP. "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret (garden of the prince) (Mt. 14:33,34).

About a month ago I woke up from a dream I had. In my dream, I was being encouraged or urged to step out and walk on water! My first few steps were fine but my faith started to waiver and I began to sink. I prayed, "Help me, Lord Jesus. I can't do this without you." and my walk was steadied. Immediately after this, I woke up. The dream has been on my mind ever since.

Maybe the dream means something or maybe not but I believe in my heart of hearts that the time of the blessed hope is near and we must be ready for His calling!

You have many rewards awaiting you in heavan dear Marilyn. In Jesus' name

My reply

I appreciate your kindness.

That is one neat dream. It reminds me of some I had of Heaven. I don't know if they mean anything or not. Have to wait until we get to Heaven to check out the details.

Even if we have to wait one more year, His coming is drawing near. I hope it will be sooner, but if not, I will still count myself lucky. I keep thinking of all the generations that did not have this chance set before them. I appreciate living in these times. God is good. The world is going to pot around us, but we have this blessed hope that is unique to these times. It more than makes up for all the rest.

Incoming Email

Re: elijah knew the day of his rapture!
please read 2 kings 2: 1-11.

My reply

You are so right. Not only did Elijah know, but Elisha and 50 of "the sons of the prophets that were at Beth-el" (house of God) knew. So 52 knew in all. Not only that, but Elisha saw Elijah taken up.

Incoming Email

I waited, as I continue to wait, but you have been mistaken. Man cannot know the day and hour of Jesus' arrival. Not even Jesus Himself knows which date and hour He will come.

I asked you in an email, if you knew anything about the traditional ancient ceremony of a Jewish wedding. You replied to me directing me to your site in which I did not find anything pertaining to it. Let me share with you what happens during the traditional ancient Jewish weddings....

In a traditional ancient ceremony, the hopeful bridegroom went to the home of his potential bride carrying three things: his best financial offering, a betrothal contract, and a skin of wine. If the father was impressed and accepted the bridegroom's offering, he called the daughter for her response. If things were acceptable to her, the bride-to-be drank the wine, and immediately a trumpet sounded to announce their betrothal.

During the following year of betrothal, the couple could not see each other alone, and a chaperone always accompanied them wherever they went. During this year, the bridegroom went to his father's house to prepare a place, a 'chupah', or honeymoon bed.

No engraved invitations were sent out for the wedding. If people preparing the calendar wanted to reserve a day for the celebration, they had a problem. When the young bridegroom was asked for the date of his wedding, he could only reply, "No man knows except my father." Why? Because he could not go get his bride until the father approved of his son's preparation.

The bride, therefore, had to be in a state of constant readiness lest the bridegroom's arrival catch her by suprise. Often she kept a light burning in the window and an extra jar of oil on hand, lest the bridegroom come in the night and find her unprepared.

When the groom's father decided everything was in place and released his son to go and fetch his bride, a second trumpet was blown. This trumpet, to announce the groom's coming, was called the "last trump." Thus announced, the bridegroom took the marriage contract to present to the father of his intended bride. He claimed her as his bride and took her from her father's house to his father's house. His father would be waiting to receive the couple, and then the groom's father would take the hand of the bride and place it in the hand of his son. At that moment, she became his wife. That act was called the 'presentation'.

After the presentation, the bridegroom would bring his bride to the place he had gone to prepare. There he would introduce her to all the society of his friends who had heard the trumpet and come to celebrate the marriage at the marriage feast. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul wrote to the church, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have enspoused [betrothed] you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

What a powerful picture of what God has prepared for us. We are the betrothed bride of Christ, purchased at Calvary with His precious blood. Paul said, "For ye are bought at a price" (1 Cor. 6:20). The Almighty Father looked down from heaven and accepted the price of our redemption. We, the bride, accepted the Groom and the evidence of His love for us.

In this interim, as we wait between Pentacost and Trumpets, Jesus Christ, our Bridegroom, returned to His Father's house to prepare everything for our arrival. Before He departed this earth, Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2-3).

Our Bridegroom WILL soon come for us. Make no mistake, we must wait with ears attuned to hear the last trumpet sound.

This is why we can read Mark 13:32-33 as the bible states it, without adding to it whatsoever. "But on that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

Thank you for taking your time to read this. If you still wish to believe that you can calculate the day of the Rapture, then you can mislead yourself once again. I am not stating that you will not be taken when He comes, only you know that in your heart; however, I do state that I believe the Word of God, and only the Word of God... Research this jewish ceremony for yourself, you will come to the same story if you seek it out. God bless you and take care. In His Love

My reply

Thanks for all the good information on the Jewish wedding.

I am a perennial watcher, and will continue to obey my Lord's command to "Watch."

I believe that Christ is God and as God knows when he is returning. He planned it before the world began. He is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2). Psa. 194:19 says, "the sun knoweth his going down."

Knowing when he is coming does not save us. The issue in Salvation is "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he" (Mt. 22:42).

Incoming Email

I didn't say that we were not also virgins, only that the jews were the virgins without enough oil. thank you ,marilyn for your web site . I am like everyone else , I watch every day to see if you have posted, and I get excited when I see a new pro come up and can't wait to read it. In gods love

My reply

Thanks. What about people who are not Jewish, people who believe in Christ, but are living like the world? Agape

Incoming Email

Re: Tu B'Av/15th Av
just a little food for thought. On www.vjtorah.com, under Holidays, there is a holiday, Tu B'Av, which they referred to as a jewish Valentine's Day. It is a minor holiday, not even mentioned on the site for the jewish calendar. It has its origins, among other events, in Judges 21:17-24. The children of Benjamin were commanded to "go and lie in wait in the vineyards; and see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin." This day, according to the jewish calendar site, is our July 28th this year. Wouldn't it be nice if the Lord caught us away on Valentine's Day???? Hoping that you and Ed are feeling well. With love to you both, In His Love

My reply

Ed is fine.

It would be nice to go on Tu B'Av, but I am afraid the wild flowers on the hills of Israel would be dried up by then.

Incoming Email

Upon what do you base your opinion for the following from P&C 337:

"...and I think there is a space between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation..."

My reply

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5).

After the Preview of the Rapture in chapter one, John is told to "Write the things which thou hast seen (things before the Rapture, i.e., he had seen the 7 churches), and the things which are (at the time of the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER (after the Rapture) (Rev. 1:19).

In each section "HEREAFTER" the Rapture in 4:1, we have to examine it very carefully for match marks to see just where it fits in the overall plan. Rev. 17:12 is obviously at the time of the Rapture, for the ten kings, have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast." In Rev. 13:1, as the beast comes to power as the Tribulation begins, all ten kings are crowned. Therefore, there is a gap between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation.

At the time of the Rapture, we are not to know exactly who the Wicked One is going to be. He is still being restrained. Yet at the beginning of the Tribulation, he is revealed when he confirms the 7-year peace covenant. His rise to this kind of power will come soon after the restraining influence is removed.

Also, Rev. 11:1,2 reveals that as the Tribulation starts, there is a temple that can be measured. Some kind of agreement is worked out with the Gentiles, for the outer court is given to them. This is an obvious prophecy that needs to be fulfilled soon. This may be the next thing on the agenda after the Rapture. I think Dan. 8:14 shows that sacrificing commences as the Tribulation starts. The gap between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation will give some space for getting the temple ready for sacrificing to begin.

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© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 6-9-99