Pro and Con 347

Uploaded 6-26-99

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Hi: (From Finland) Re: creation & dinos etc.
What do you think about this site?

Do you agree?

My reply

His site is under construction. I was just the 7th on his counter. I do not agree with him. He seems to be following what a certain man said instead of what God said. I'll give you just a few of my reasons for disagreement, and will quote the Bible version that brings each point out the clearest.

I think there was a gap between the first two verses of Genesis. Whatever bones they find, Adam was different from any creature that was before him. "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen. 1:26). That was the beginning of the roughly 7000 years that the Bible covers. Scripture only gives us hints of what was before and what comes after. Gen. 1:1 was before. (I Cor. 15:24,28, "when all things shall be subdued unto him, then..." is after.)

Gen. 1:1 (KJV) says, "IN the beginning God created the heaven (lit. heavens) and the earth." I don't think you will find any astronomers suggesting that the heavens are only about 6000 years old. Far from it, they think that the heavens are more like 12 billion years old. The great distances involved and the speed of light make 6000 years sound like a drop in a bucket. I think that people who think the Earth is this young have a myopic view of God's creation.

Earth was NOT created a ruin. I believe Isa. 45:18 (KJV): "thus saith the LORD that created (bara, to creat a new thing) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, moulded into a form, as a potter) the earth AND made (asah, dressed, fashioned, prepared) it; he hath established it, he created (bara) it NOT in vain (tohu, ruin), he formed (yatsar, moulded) it to be inhabited." Earth was created ("bara") long ago. It was fashioned, prepared, made ("asah") to be a fit habitat for Adam, roughly 6000 years ago.

By the time of the Tower of Babel, the materials buried before Adam's day had already become "tar" (chemar, bitumen) (Gen. 11:3, NIV). The tar came from the destructive distillation of buried organic materials.

Gen. 1:2 (KJV) says, "And the earth was (hajah, had become) without form (tohu), and void (bohu); and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

The very literal Concordant version says, "Yet the earth BECAME a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos."

Job 26:11-14 (JB): "The pillars (uprights, i.e., the righteous, Rev. 3:12, including Enoch, Gen. 5:24, Jude 14,15) of the heavens tremble, awe-struck at his threats (Rev. 8:8,10). By his power, he has (in the past) whipped up the Sea (took the Moon out of the Pacific Basin), by his skill, he has CRUSHED RAHAB (Satan's planet, where the Asteroid Belt is now). His breath has made the heavens luminous (the blackness of space lit up by explosions), his hand transfixed ('slew,' Lamsa Bible) the Fleeing Serpent (Satan). This is only a fraction of what he has done and all we catch of it is the feeblest echo."

Eccl. 1:9 (KJV): "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be." Earth got hit by an asteroid before Adam, and it will get hit again on the day of Jacob's trouble, a day "such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Dan. 12:1).

Isa. 42:5 (JB): "Yahweh, who created (bara) the heavens and spread them out (the as the light finally arrives here, the red shift indicates the expansion of the universe), who HAMMERED into shape the earth."

When Bessel figured the distance to a nearby star (61 Cygni), the enormity of the stellar universe became apparent. When the Hubble Telescope could see clearly, the scope of the universe began to assume dimensions that are beyond the grasp of our human minds. The time it has taken for the points of light to reach us from the far reaches of space is enormous. Just the size of our own galaxy is astonishing. It is 100,000 light years across, and has at least that many stars in it.

If one doesn't think the present shape of earth was hammered into shape, they should look at the closeup pictures of the Moon and other planets. Craters are on every suface we have been able to see clearly. Why would Earth be immune? We have craters on Earth that can't be ignored. Earth got hit in the past, and it will get hit again in the future. I believe an asteroid impact destroyed the dinosaurs, killed the lush vegetation and caused the Earth to become waste and desolate. What else could expel the Moon, cause mass extinction, bury whole forests, throw pillow lava from the sea bed on top of the ground in Wyoming, and dust a layer of iridium over the whole planet--on TOP of the layers containing dinosaur bones.

Isa. 51:9,10 (Lamsa): "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake AS IN THE ANCIENT DAYS, as in the generations of old. Surely it was thou that didst DECREE A SEVERE SENTENCE THAT DIDST SLAY THE DRAGON. It was thou that didst dry the sea, the waters of the great deep."

Psa. 89:9-14 (KJV): "Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. Thou hast BROKEN REHAB (Satan's planet) IN PIECES, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them....Justice and JUDGMENT are the habitation of thy throne."

Job 38:8-10 (KJV): "who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and THICK DARKNESS a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my DECREED PLACE" (the Pacific Basin).

Gen. 1:9 (NAB): "'Let the water under the sky be gathered into a SINGLE BASIN, so that the dry land may appear.' And so it happened: the water under the sky was gathered into its basin, and the dry land appeared."

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Thanks for hanging in there. You have often used Rev. 5:9 to point out the multitudes from every nation, etc. that are in heaven. "They say that the "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1 is not the Rapture, and close their eyes to the fact that the people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" are in Heaven in 5:9. They fail to recognize that they are in Heaven before either one of the endtime beasts come on the scene in Rev. 6."

I don't see the multitudes singing this, only the elders. Even though the words to the song refers to us that doesn't necessarily mean that "us" is there does it? Nevertheless, if 12 of the elders are the apostles, I suppose we can wonder how did they get there without the rest of us. Buta, the apostles are not from every nation or tongue. Can you tighten this up a little for me?

5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 5:9 And they (the beasts and elders) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and (thou, the Lamb) hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

While we are on this subject, where are people who have died and are awaiting the resurrection? Jesus told the thief that "today thou wilt be with me in Paradise." I understand this to mean that his spirit will be there. He will receive his resurrection body when the dead are raised. In this context, could it be the spirits of those who are in heaven who are doing the singing? After all, the angels are spirits. What do you think?

My reply

> I don't see the multitudes singing this, only the elders.

Do you remember how the 24 priests that were on duty represented all the priests? The 24 elders represent all the believer priests that are caught up in the first Rapture. Twelve elders are the OT patriarchs, the "princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel" that "shall gather themselves unto thee" at the first trump (Nu. 10:4). They represent Israel. The other twelve are the apostles. Peter said he is "also an elder" (I Pet. 5:1). The apostles are Israelites, but they also were the beginning of the Church on Pentecost. They represent Christians.

Also think of how an American can send a letter to their Representative in the government's House of Representatives. Our elected Representative then speaks for us and presents our wishes to Congress. In a similar way, the elders can speak for us and present our prayers to Christ as our Representatives.

In Rev. 3:8, "an open door" is set before the Philadelphians who are to be kept "from" (out of) the Tribulation that will come upon the whole world. In Rev. 4:1, one of the elders, John, is told to "Come up hither" He was the last living member of the elders. In John 21:22, "Jesus saith unto Peter, If I will that he (John) tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" John was still living when The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written as if the Rapture were at hand. John represents the last living members of this generation, the ones that don't have to die before the Lord Jesus Christ is revealed at the Rapture.

Just as Rev. 13 starts out talking about the kingdom, then blends into talking about the sixth head out of that kingdom, Rev. 8-10 starts out with the elders and blends into talking about the whole group of saints that the elders represent.

Rev. 8-10, in the New Scofield Reference Bible, says, "and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints. And they (the whole assembly of saints) sang a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us (the whole assembly of saints) to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us (the whole assembly of saints) unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall reign on (margin: Or over) the earth."

Psa. 33:1-3 says, "REJOICE in the LORD, O YE RIGHTEOUS: for praise is comely for the upright. Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. SING UNTO HIM A NEW SONG."

Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put A NEW SONG (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

Psa. 149:1 says, "PRAISE ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD A NEW SONG, and his praise IN THE CONGREGATION OF SAINTS."

It seems to me that we all join in to sing the new song. The elders are all Israelites, and the saints are from all nations.

> Even though the words to the song refers to us that doesn't necessarily
> mean that "us" is there does it?

I think "'us' is there." :-)

> could it be the spirits of those who are in heaven who are
> doing the singing? After all, the angels are spirits.

The saints are separate from the angels here. Rev. 5:11,12 continues as others join in, "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne...Saying...Worthy is the Lamb..." In verse 13, "every creature" joins in saying, "Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne."

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RE: the new song
Marilyn, I think you are right. "Us" is there! If the elders are there, we be there too. PTL! Thanks for your help.

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Re: the 10 kingdoms yet to come
Found it! Check out this URL:

This site also has a lot of other interesting info you may find useful.

My reply

Thanks. Here is the lst of the ten kingdoms as found on "THE CUTTING EDGE."
...the New World Order Plan has divided the world into 10 Super Nations...and has nearly completed the reorganization...


1. North America
2. Western Europe
3. Japan
4. Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market-economy of the developed world.
5. Eastern Europe, including Russia
6. Latin America
7. North Africa and the Middle East
8. Tropical Africa
9. South and Southeast Asia
10. China...

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It appears that with all your diligent work in the scripture, there are still something that you are missing about the timing of the rapture?

The rapture would have been on the day of Pentecost 5-21-99 based on the hints in the scripture. Nevertheless it did not take place, due to the reasons only known to the Lord. Therefore, it appears that there is a delay. This delay is also explained in the Bible in many clear versus.

Dear Marilyn, the only hint that I can come up with from the scripture is related to the book of Esther. If Esther is a type of church, then the Bible tells us the month not the day of the rapture, listen to this:

Es:2:16: "So Esther was taken unto king Ahasuerus into his house royal in the tenth month, which is the month Tebeth..."

The month of the rapture appears to be the tenth month which is Tevet on the Jewish Calendar. Yet the day is not known. Does this make sense? Perhaps we can look forward to the month of Tevet. God Bless you!

My reply

Whenever you see the word month in the Bible, it means the first day of the month unless a day number is listed. The word month is the same as the word new moon, and the new moon is the first of the month.

I just UL Pro and Con 345. Be sure and see it. I think we probably must wait until next Pentecost.

I can't see the Rapture in Teveth. It is in the winter. According to Song of Solomon 2:10-14, the Rapture is in the spring or at least at the time of the firstripe grapes. We are wheat, and it makes sense that it will be at the time of wheat harvest, Pentecost.

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Why do you spend so much time worrying about when the second coming will be, when we're told clearly that we can't know the day or time? Why not just be busy spreading the gospel instead of fiddling with calendars? That's what we're told to be doing, not staring up into the sky, waiting.

My reply

The Bible tells us the Jewish month and day of the month of the Second Coming. Look at these verses.

De. 11:14: "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain, and the latter rain." The former rain starts Tishri 1, Jesus' birthday. The latter rain starts Nisan 1, the date of the Second Coming.

Hos. 6:3 "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."

This is confirmed in Ezek. 29. Verse 17 sets the day, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." This is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Logos, Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Re: look up. Lu. 21:28 says, "And when these things begin to come to pass (which they have), then LOOK UP, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Heb. 9:28 says, "unto them that LOOK FOR HIM shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Jesus commanded us to "Watch."

Mt. 24 ends with "The lord of that servant (the evil one) shall come in a DAY when he looketh not for him and in an HOUR that he is not aware of. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The companion passage in Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unfaithful and unwise one) will come in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and at an HOUR when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" (the shortened Tribulation).

Here it is evident that the wise servant will be looking for Him on a DAY that he is aware of, and in an HOUR that he is aware of. It is the evil servant that is not aware of the day or hour.

In Rev. 3:3, Jesus warns the churches, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what HOUR I will come upon thee." However, if we do watch, he will not come on us as a thief, and we shall know what HOUR he will come on us.

This helps us understand Mt. 24:36: "But of that DAY and HOUR knoweth (present tense) no man." On that day, no man knew. Isa. 28:9 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts." The church is old now and can understand what the baby church could not. In Dan. 12:4, we see that in the time of the end, "knowledge shall be increased." Verse 10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise SHALL understand."

You have "an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME (kairos, due season, fixed time). Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season (oligos, puny, BRIEF DURATION OF TIME), if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory....Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST (i.e., the Rapture)...Be ye holy; for I am holy....Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (I Peter 1:4-22).

In Scripture, a "time" can represent a year, as in Rev. 12:14. What if the above contains a clue that the date of the Rapture is "READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME," or year? The "TRIAL OF YOUR FAITH" fits our being sifted as wheat. "THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST" and "THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" both represent the Rapture.

I intend to obey Christ's admonition to watch. You might want to read Pro and Con 345.

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I would like to order your books. Could you let me know the prices and where to send the money? I love your web-site and I pray for you (and everyone one on this site) each day that God will give you the strength to keep it up until He comes for us. Please add me to your prayer list. The devil is attacking me from all sides: financial problems, health problems, family troubles. It gets so hard sometimes. I was really hoping the Lord would come this year, but it looks like we'll have to wait (patiently) until next Pentecost.

I love you, dear sister in Christ. Thank you for your faithfulness.

My reply

Book Information:

Exit: 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed ($5.50).
Heaven Found: A Butter and Honey Star ($5.50).
Revelations 2000 ($6.99).

Shipping: Book Rate, $1.63 for one, $2.08 for two, $2.58 for three books.
Priority Mail: $3.20 for one or two, $4.40 for 3 books.

Send check or Money Order to:
Marilyn Agee
8641 Sugar Gum Rd.
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I prayed and added you to my list. Thanks for praying for us. We have financial and health problems too, but the whole family gets along with each other fabulously. I was hoping for the Rapture this year too. It looks like we are going to have to try to sell the house and move. That sounds horrific. Ed had heart attack and bypass surgery. Our son, Dave, and I both have back injuries and should not lift heavy things at all. We were scared that we would hurt our backs so bad that we would never be able to walk again the last time we moved. We have pain every day.

All three of us worked in the yard a bit day before yesterday. We have to get the house and yard in shape to show to prospective buyers. Ed was pruning. He quit first, then I had to quit--too much stooping. My feet cramped so hard I had to put a hot pack on them and take medicine that put me to sleep. Dave and I both took the day off yesterday to try to get over our pains. Ed had Cardiac Rehab, co couldn't do more than that. I have an appt. with my Dr. today about my muscle cramps. My right foot is cramping lightly right now. Both were cramping when I woke up.

However, the Lord has never let us down yet. Some way, we will get through whatever we have to do. We have to stay ready in case the Rapture would happen before I think it will too. Our bodies may be weak, but our faith is strong. We are overcomers, no matter what.

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Presuming you are still with us....I have some non-eschatological Bible questions. (Hope I spelled that right.) I've being doing one of those read-the-Bible-in-a-year programs and I've run across a couple of things that just don't sit right. First, at the end of David's rein (tail end of 1Kings and 1Chron) we have a situation where David takes a census. For some reason that I can't determine God doesn't like this a punishes him for it with a plague (David's choice). Why can't he take a census? It seems like a perfectly logical, reasonable, and wise steward type thing to do? I don't get it.

The second instance is the situation of Elisha and the 40 kids. (Somewhere in 2Kings) What does 'go up' mean anyway, and why is it such a taunt as to require the 'bear' remedy? It seems a bit extreme.

Looking for your reply.

My reply

> Why can't he take a census?

We can't understand if we think like men. We have to try to think like God. In Israel's recorded history, he was painting dramatic pictures for us so we could understand prophecy. We have to realize that these things were types of things to come in the future.

David was a type of Christ, the Son of David. The Israelites were to become as the sand of of sea. To be presumptuous and count them when he was not told to do so was the wrong thing to do. It spoiled the type, and Satan knew it. First Chron. 21:1 says, "AND Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." Joab protested. He knew it was not the right thing to do at that time. In I Chron. 21:3, Joab said, "The LORD make his people an hundred times so many more as they be: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why then doth my lord require this thing? why will he (David, type of the LORD) be a cause of trespass to Israel?"

Moses did something similar. He angrily struck the rock twice. Christ is the rock and was only to die once. Therefore Moses was punished by not being able to go into the promised land. We are to do exactly what the Lord says, but it was terrible for the early Types to spoil the picture God was trying to paint for us. I Cor. 10:11 says, "Now all these things happened unto them (Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come."

> The second instance is the situation of Elisha and the 40 kids.

First of all, mocking was a serious offense. Ishmael was sent away because he mocked. Gen. 21:9,10 says, "Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac."

The picture this was painting is found in Gal. 4:22-31. Hagar represented the first covenant, "the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage." Sarah represented the new covenant and the Jerusalem which is above and free." "But as then he that was born after the flesh PERSECUTED him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." The one that persecutes the one that is born of the Spirit will be cast out. The son of the free Jerusalem will be caught up to Heaven.

II Kings 2:23 says that this large group of children (standing for the last generation, the "Little children" of "the last time" in I John 2:18) "mocked him, and said unto him, Go up (as Elijah had been caught up to Heaven), thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

I think that, as a type, Elisha and the gang of more than 42 children was to picture that irreverence in the end of this age is to be cursed after the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. It took place right after Elijah was taken up to Heaven. The wrath of the Lord (the curse) falls right after the Pre-Wrath Rapture as the Millennium begins.

Note: In a message from Jim Bramlett, he said, "the number 42 'is connected with the tribulation of Israel.'" We can see that in the 42 months listed in Rev. 13:5.

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