Pro and Con 348

Uploaded 6-30-99

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Re: Consider Other Options!
I felt I should write you and encourage you to consider other options besides a Pentecost rapture.

Clearly, God has given you great insights into His Word and He has allowed you to awaken many to the reality of His soon coming. Now that I have diligently watched and waited for four specific dates, Feast of Tabernacles 1997, Pentecost 1998 and the "two" Pentecosts of 1999, I am convinced that we will not know the day or hour, unless He reveals it to His wise virgins just a few days before the firstfruits rapture.

Jesus' coming for His firstfruits is so close that I believe we dare not begin to think it is another full year away. Therefore, I want to encourage you to look at other scriptural signs that could point to this rapture on a date other than Pentecost. You see, you always try to determine the relevance of other Scriptures based upon your PRESUPPOSITION that the firstfruits rapture MUST OCCUR on Pentecost. Nowhere in Scripture does it specifically state this. You have reasoned in your own mind that this is the case. I am not criticizing your reasoning. You have figured many things out, I believe.

I just want to encourage you to consider a new paradigm. It would be a shame for any to fall asleep because they think they have a year to flirt with the world! I would suggest that you consider times that do not fall on Jewish holidays as well as the Fall holidays.

My reply

> you always try to determine the relevance of other Scriptures based upon your
> PRESUPPOSITION that the firstfruits rapture MUST OCCUR on Pentecost. Nowhere in
> Scripture does it specifically state this. You have reasoned in your own mind that
> this is the case.

I did not start out with any PRESUPPOSITIONS at all. I did not even read other books about the Bible until I had read the Bible for myself. I was afraid that if I read anything else first, I could be misled and not realize it. I wanted the Bible in my head first so I could judge whether what man said about the Bible was true or not. I let the Bible interpret itself and show me what it meant. After more than 38 years of deep study have gone by, I still have no agenda of my own to defend. I only believe what I think I see in Scripture. I know what I believe and why. I can show you what scriptures my belief is based on. If further study indicates that the Bible means something different, I immediately accept that. The Bible is pure truth, the only real truth we have to go by. It is our anchor to keep us from being blown about by every wind of false doctrine.

The Lord planned everything before this kosmos, order of things, began, before the ages of time began. Paul said, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained (proorisen, predetermined) BEFORE the world (pro ton aionon, before the ages)" (I Cor. 2:7). Second Timothy 1:9 tells of "grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began (prochronon aionion, before the ages of time)."

Since he set the seven feasts on dates that the most important events would take place in the future, it does not seem the least bit unreasonable to think that he might set the Rapture on a feast day. It is an important event. It doesn't have to be on a feast day, but it seems more likely on a feast day. There were three feasts when they were supposed to GO UP to Jerusalem. Pentecost was one of those. That is interesting; we are to go up to New Jerusalem at the Rapture.

When the feasts were set up, the people were not told what would happen on that day in the future. The events of each feast day were symbolic of what would happen on that day in the future. Pentecost is no different from the rest in this respect.

It looks to me like Song of Sol. 2:10-14 gives us clues to the day of the Rapture, when the Bride of Christ is caught up by the Bridegroom. It says that winter is past and the "rain is over and gone." Since the former rain comes in Tishri and the latter rain in Nisan, six feasts are eliminated. ONLY Pentecost is left.

Song of Sol. 2:12,13 says, "The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle (tor, turtledove) is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. ARISE, my love, my fair one, and COME AWAY."

This indicates spring or very early summer, before the vegetation dries up. The turtledove arrives in Israel in April and stays until October. In the middle of Nisan, "the time of figs was not yet" (Mk. 11:13). The time of green figs is May or June. They ripen in July. The time of firstripe grapes is around Sivan 1 (Nu. 10:33; 12:14: 13:20). Pentecost is in early Sivan.

In the Tischendorf New Testament, James 5:7 says, "Be PATIENT therefore, brethren (believers), unto the coming of the Lord (i.e., the Rapture). Behold, the husbandman WAITETH for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long PATIENCE for it, until he receive THE EARLY (former rain in Tishri) and LATER RAIN (of Nisan). Be ye also PATIENT; stablish your hearts: for the COMING OF THE LORD DRAWETH NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren. lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge (Christ) standeth before the DOOR" (the "open door" of Rev. 3:8).

Doesn't this sound like his coming is nigh after the latter rain is over? Pentecost is the only feast that comes after the latter rain is over and before the former rain begins again.

Pentecost is the only feast that has a plain connection to the Church. The Church was born on Earth on Pentecost. Believers were filled at the coming of the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). It makes sense that the believers that are filled with the Holy Spirit would be born into another new world on the anniversary of the coming of the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of Christ came to the Church on Pentecost. It makes sense that Christ would come to the Church again on Pentecost.

> consider other options besides a Pentecost rapture

What alternatives do we have? Christ is the head of the spiritual Body of Christ. He ascended on the Feast of Firstfruits (took the OT saints to heaven) and returned the same day. However, that day was in the month of Nisan, the month of the latter rain.

Christ ascended again on the 40th day after Firstfruits. Could we also ascend on the 40th day? It is possible, but Jesus did not come on that day. He went away.

The "Spirit of Christ" CAME on Pentecost. At that time, He came to FILL believers. I think it makes more sense that He will pick up the FILLED believers on the anniversary of that day. Thus Pentecost would both begin and end the Church Era.

Dr. Tabor, translator for the Original Bible Project, wrote me. He said,
> I am sure you have looked at Jeremiah 5:24 before. There we have reference
> to our former and latter rains--and how they come in their proper TIME, but
> also we read: "and he keeps for us Shavuot, appointed for the harvest."

The KJV says, Let us now fear the LORD our God, that giveth rain, both the former and the latter, IN HIS SEASON (Tishri 1, First Advent; Nisan 1, Second Advent, Ezek. 29:17,21): he reserveth unto US the appointed WEEKS of the harvest." Pentecost is also called the Feast of Weeks. It is the only feast that has a seven-week countdown before it.

Since we are called wheat, the time of the wheat harvest seems the best time for the harvest of the firstfruit saints. James 1:18 says, "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures."

Lev. 23:17 says of Pentecost, "Ye shall BRING OUT OF YOUR HABITATIONS two wave-loaves...they shall be of fine flour...baken with leaven; THEY ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS unto the LORD."

Since the foolish Laodicean virgins are left behind (spewed out of His mouth, Rev. 3:16), Lev. 23:22 is chock full of meaning. Concerning Pentecost, it says, "And when ye reap the HARVEST of your land, thou SHALT NOT MAKE CLEAN RIDDANCE OF THE CORNERS OF THY FIELD."

Micah is cast in the role of a Tribulation saint in Mic. 7:1,2. He said, "WOE is me! for I am as (symbolic language) when they have gathered the summer fruits (the setting is just before the Pre-Wrath Rapture on Tishri 1), as the grapegleanings of the vintage (Elul/Tishri): there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the FIRSTRIPE FRUIT (of Sivan, i.e., Pentecost). The good man is perished (abad, ESCAPED) out of the earth." This ESCAPE is what we are to pray for. Lu. 21:36 says, "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

On Pentecost, they were "to bring the FIRSTFRUITS of our ground (i.e., Israel), and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees (i.e., all nations), year by year, unto the house of the LORD: Also the FIRSTBORN OF OUR SONS" (Neh. 10:35,36).

Ex. 23:16 says of Pentecost, "the feast of harvest, the FIRSTFRUITS of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field." We are the good seed that Christ has sown in the world. Pentecost is a time for going up to Jerusalem. Verse 19 says, "The FIRST of the FIRSTFRUITS of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God." That is at Jerusalem. For us, it will be "new Jerusalem" (Rev. 3:12). Ex. 23:20 says, "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to BRING THEE INTO THE PLACE WHICH I HAVE PREPARED." In John 14:2,3, Jesus said, "I go to prepare a PLACE for you. And if I go and prepare a PLACE for you, I will COME AGAIN (His Spirit came on Pentecost, 30 AD), and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

I think Pentecost fits best. You decide and tell me when YOU think the Rapture will be.

His reply

Thanks for the reply, Marilyn.

When one looks at all of the Scripture that you have put together at one time it is hard to imagine a different time for the firstfruits rapture!

I guess I would just like to believe that it will happen before June 2000!

Well, we just have more time to warn the sleepers that the end of the age is nigh!

God bless your wonderful patience and perseverence, dear Saint!

Incoming Email

The 9th of Av, the day that both of the other Temples of the Lord were destroyed, is in the "summer". The "third day" a temple of the Lord is removed could perhaps be the same (July 22, l999). Would fit all the Matthew, Mark, and Luke answers that Jesus gave the disciples when they asked "when". Also, fits the discription of the mystery of the revelation of the Lord in Ephesians 2 and 3. Please look and advise us. I haven't given up on this year, it is summer. Also, the fig tree parable (I think in Mark) says when the fig tree and ALL the trees shoot forth, you will know that summer is nigh.

Could the Temple of the Holy Spirit be removed in the summer, on the same day as the other two temples were removed? Could this be the "third day?"

Also, in Genesis 8:8, it says the tops of the trees were seen on the lst day of the 10th month (5th month,now), then 40 days later Noah opened the window of the ark and released the raven, and then the dove. She found no rest for the soles of her feet, and he reached forth and pulled her in unto himself.

This is very close timing the 9th of Av (this year seems to be the llth of Av).

My reply

> Could the Temple of the Holy Spirit be removed in the summer, on the same day as the
> other two temples were removed? Could this be the "third day?"

It's possible. The very fact that two temples have been removed on the same day seems pre-planned for a very good reason.

However, there are a few things that make Pentecost sound more probable. We are called wheat. The wheat harvest suggests Pentecost. Lev. 23:17 says, "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave-loaves...they are the firstfruits unto the LORD." We are "a kind of firstfruits" (Jas. 1:18). Neh. 10:35,36 says, "to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of ALL TREES (nations)...unto the house of the LORD: Also the firstborn of our SONS."

The grapes start to ripen in Sivan. The vegetation is generally dried up in the following month of Tamuz, and Song of Sol. 2:12 says, "The flowers appear on the earth." The spies went into the promised land at the time of firstripe grapes, and the Israelites started to leave Sinai on Iyar 20 (Nu. 10:11). It was a "three days journey" (Nu. 10:33), but they waited another seven days until Miriam could come back into the camp (Nu. 12:14). Thus, it may have been Sivan 1 when the spies went into the land. Also, the Spirit of Christ came to the Church on Pentecost. It would be a good type of Christ coming for the Church on Pentecost.

One thing we might be waiting on is for the tares to be bound into bundles, i.e., the ten regions of the world to be better formed. Their kings would not yet be elected though (Rev. 17:12). Mt. 13:30 says, "Let both (wheat and tares) grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST: and IN THE TIME OF HARVEST I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and BIND THEM IN BUNDLES to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." The ten regions have been decided on, but the economic union of each of them is not yet complete.

> the dove. She found no rest for the soles of her feet, and he reached
> forth and pulled her in unto himself.

The Jewish year 5758 (1998) means the season of Noah. We entered the season of Noah in 1998. In Gen. 8:8-12, Noah "sent forth a dove" (symbol of the Spirit of Christ). The dove returned to him the FIRST TIME. Think of this as the first of the three years in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. Noah waited seven days and sent out the dove again. She returned to him the SECOND TIME. He waited "another seven days" (equal intervals) and sent the dove out again. The THIRD TIME, she did not return, but flew off. This fits the Rapture in the THIRD YEAR of the parable. That is the year that Christ comes AND speaks. He is not said to either come or speak in the extra year.

I certainly hope the Rapture takes place this summer, but am afraid we will have to wait for next Pentecost.

Incoming Email

Re: View opposing Split-rapture
Marilyn, curious as to what you think about this writer's thoughts. Keep looking Up!
***Hi from Marilyn: I don't agree with her at all. My comments are interspersed in hers.

>"Romans and the Split-Rapture Theory"


***There are two Raptures, one Pre-Trib, the other Pre-Wrath. Both are "SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD."

>Proponets of the split-rapture theory never seem to quote Romans, or Corinthians, or
>Timothy, or Philippians, or Thessalonians, do they? They usually refer to scriptures
>which doctrinally are speaking to Jews or aimed at those unbelievers who may or may not
>come to Christ after the rapture has taken place. The problem quite simply is they are
>short on doctrine - which rightly divides the Word and identifies and puts people in the
>proper place and time slot. The split-rapture teachers use the books of Matthew, James,
>Acts, & Hebrews to wrest scriptures from their doctrinally correct meaning.

>That's why you find them using Matthew to warn believers what will happen if they don't
>do this or that. That's why you find them quoting James to justify a works related
>worthiness to be caught up. And if using scriptures doesn't work, they say things like
>"the teaching that all believers are going up at the first rapture is an 'evil & false'

>The trouble comes from taking verses out of the doctrinally correct position, and making
>them line up with what they believe to be so.....EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE TO OVERTHROW A HUNDRED

>2 Tim. 1:12 - "..for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to
>keep that which I've committed unto him against that day."

***Paul is talking about himself, not us. The whole passage says, "I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I've committed unto him against that day."

>Philippians 1:6 - "Being confident of this very thing, that which hath begun a good work
>in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

***In Phil. 2:14-16, Paul also said, "Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." In 3:11-14, Paul also said, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. NOT AS THOUGH I HAD ALREADY ATTAINED, EITHER WERE ALREADY PERFECT: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I COUNT NOT MYSELF TO HAVE APPREHENDED: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I PRESS TOWARD THE MARK FOR THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS" (the Pre-Trib Rapture).

***You see, there are two days of Christ, i.e., two Raptures. Jesus "said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man (the Pre-Trib Rapture), and ye shall NOT SEE IT....And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man."

***The PRIZE Paul was working for was to be included in the Pre-Trib Rapture on the first Day of Christ.

>I Thess.5:9 - "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain
>salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

***Both those caught up in the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath Raptures escape God's wrath.

>John 3:16 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
>even to them that believe on his name."
>John 1:12 - "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that hath not
> the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
>John 5:24 - "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting
> life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
>Acts 13:39 - "And by him all that believe are justified from all things,
>from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."
>Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being justified by his blood, we
>shall be saved from wrath through him."

***Both those caught up in the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath Raptures escape God's wrath.

>Ephesians 2:8-10 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves:
>it is a gift from God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
>Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him
>that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

***These are talking about Salvation, not which Rapture they are caught up in.

>I Corinthians 1:7-9 - "..waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also
>confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, God
> is faithful, by whom ye were called unto fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord."

***She left off the beginning, "So that ye come behind in no gift:". In verse 10, Paul said, "Now I beseech you, brethren...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you." In verse 11, he said, "there are contentions among you." He was pleading with them to not have contentions so that they might not come behind in earning a gift and be blameless in the day of Christ.

>Jude 24 - "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and
>to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy."

***He left off the previous verse: "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even THE GARMENT SPOTTED BY THE FLESH." By the Pre-Wrath Rapture, the Tribulation saints "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:14,15). They are pulled out of the fire before the asteroid impacts on the Day of God's Wrath.

>I Thess. 5:23-24 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your
> whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord
> Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who will also do it."

***Why is he praying that they will be blameless if they can't fail to be blameless at the Pre-Trib Rapture?

>Colossians 2:9-10 - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are
>complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power." All that is necessary
>to understand the destiny of Jews, Gentiles, believers, and unbelievers is to be doctrinally
>correct as to whom the scriptures are addressing. If you confuse this issue, you will get
>into trouble assigning promises and warnings to the wrong set of people....and that is how
>we lose our direction and our assurances. None of the above quoted verses (aimed at
>believers) are anything like the verses aimed at Jews or those in the tribulation wise &
>foolish virgins, the evil servant, ye that work iniquity, whosoever is angry at his brother,
>whoever calls his brother a fool, the children of the kingdom who are cast into outer
>darkness, he that endures until the end, those that see the abomination of desolation,
>those who see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory,
>those who are appointed unto wrath, those that look for him a second time, those that 'did
it not unto the least of these', those cursed into everlasting fire, those who hid their
>talents in the earth, those who cannot enter because of unbelief, those to whom the word
>was preached and did not profit them because it was not being mixed with faith, etc.

>Those verses come almost exclusively out of Matthew - at a time when the crucifixion had
>not even a time when Christ had not a time when the Church was
>still a time when the Holy Spirit had not even a time when as
>yet there were no Christians! To make them "fit" the split-rapture teaching, one must not
>only wrest them out of the proper doctrinal time, but one must also overthrow the definite,
>pointed, clear, exact, plain statements written and given as authoritative, absolute,
>infallible truth by the infallible Holy Spirit of God.

>But the root of this trouble about these people who think a Christian can be left behind goes
>a great deal deeper than just being confused on doctrine. At the bottom and base of this
>thing is a self-righteous person who wants his works to be part of his worthiness. Oh, they
>won't admit to self-righteousness, they still say they need Christ for salvation; but the
>'proof of the pudding' they say, is in the works....

***In Rev. 3:15,16, Jesus says to the lukewarm Laodicean CHURCH, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold not hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then BECAUSE THOU ART LUKEWARM, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE (emesai, vomit) THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH."

***His advise to the church that gets vomited out of the Body of Christ at the first Day of Christ is in verses 17-19: "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and HAVE NEED OF NOTHING; and knowest not that THOU ART WRETCHED, AND MISERABLE, AND POOR, AND BLIND, AND NAKED: I counsel thee to buy of me gold (deity, i.e., the oil of the Holy Spirit) tried in the fire (i.e., the Tribulation), that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: BE ZEALOUS THEREFORE, AND REPENT." Jesus finishes in verse 22 with these words, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES."

> Shalom, Sherry Vance

Incoming Email

Re: Rethinking the Parable of 10 virgins I have been following your site since PC number 27 and we have written to each other numerous times, I thank God for your work and pray for you and Ed often.

Please consider what I have to write.

I guess there is no need to rewrite the parable of the 10 virgins, so I will get to the point. At midnight a call went out that the groom was coming. This woke up the 10 sleeping brides some to full lamps with extra oil and some with not so full lamps. During this time of the call at midnight and the actual return of the groom, the 5 brides without extra oil went out to get some. Some time later the groom returns and takes the 5 ready brides.

Marilyn, you say that the oil is the Holy Spirit and I believe you, I think that the oil also represents anointing that goes along with it. This much I am sure we agree on.

Now to fill our lamps again, we are to ask for forgiveness of our sins. If done in true repentance, then I believe that filling can happen in a blink of an eye. So during that time frame between the call of the groom returning and his actual return why can't the 5 brides without extra oil get their extra oil quickly if we know that they can?

I believe that there is something special about the call that the groom is coming. At this call, something happens that omits the unprepared brides. Are there any clues that might give us a hint to what is going on and why the 5 brides without full lamps are left out?

I believe that the 5 unprepared brides were foolish in the fact that they were not ready at the call otherwise, they would have filled their lamps during that timeframe and been taken with the original 5 prepared brides. Again, I think that the call has some clues to the answer.

Can you shed any light on this? Thankful always, Your friend in Christ

My reply

Thanks for your kind words and prayers.

There are people who do not think any believer can be left behind. They think that if they have accepted Christ, they will be automatically included in the Rapture. The Laodiceans think they "have need of nothing" (Rev. 3:17). They go out with their lamps, but take no extra oil in their vessels. They fully expect that the oil in the lamp will be enough. Since they do not expect to have to do anything, they may not realize right away what they have to do. Christ comes quickly. The lukewarm Laodiceans are spewed out of his mouth. Before they can figure out what to do and do it, the Rapture is over, the Bridegroom is gone. We have to be ready ahead of time.

The call is Christ saying, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1).

When the Bridegroom came, "they that were READY went in with him to the marriage; and the door was shut" (Mt. 25:10).

One email I just answered quoted Sherry Vance's article Re: View opposing Split-rapture. Sherry quoted Romans 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

For sure, our belief in Christ is enough to get us into Heaven, but this verse just doesn't indicate which Rapture we might be taken up in.

One group is seen in Rev. 5:9. The other in Rev. 7:14. Both groups will get into Heaven Pre-Wrath, the first before the first seal is broken as the Tribulation begins, the second between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals when the Day of God's Wrath has come (Rev. 6:17). Agape

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