Pro and Con 351

Uploaded 7-5-99

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Reference P@C 348 and the 10 virgin discussion:
The cry did not occur until AFTER the virgins had already gone out to meet the bridegroom. The bridegroom tarries and THEN the virgins go to sleep. Then AFTER all this happens, comes the midnight cry.

Also from 348, I must agree with the person who thinks a Pentecost rapture is no longer a requirement but for a different reason. The TARRY!!! The way I see it, the only way to now find the date of the rapture is to search out the Word for clues about the TARRY.

What made the virgins go out in the first place? Could it have been a similiar star in the sky like the one that brought us all out 120 days before this past Pentecost?

My best to you and Ed. Agape

My reply

Here is some food for thought.

Concerning Jesus, Lu. 2:41-46 says, "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover....And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus TARRIED BEHIND in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it....And it came to pass, that after THREE DAYS they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions." Verses 49 and 50 say, "wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business: And they understood not the SAYING which he spake unto them." Do these three days typify something else?

Maybe the three days could be a type of three Sacred Years, starting with Nisan, the month of passover. If Jesus was found in the temple, whose temple are we, AFTER three years, then he left to go home, could it typify the Rapture AFTER three years, on Pentecost in Sivan, the 3rd month? Agape

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Have not seen a P&C for a while. Hope you and Ed are OK.

You are probably familiar with this quote from the book, "Thy Kingdom Come", by Graff and Dolphin:

A promise is given that "In that day" [at the end of the tribulation], "the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant " The Lord will "assemble the [rest of the] scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."

Certainly sounds like a second rapture (pre-wrath), doesn't it? There would therefore have to be a first (Pre-Trib) rapture as well!

My reply

We are better now....
I haven't read the book, "Thy Kingdom Come."

> A promise is given that "In that day" [at the end of the tribulation], "the Lord will
> extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant The Lord will "assemble the
> [rest of the] scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."

I think that Isa. 11:11 refers to the Millennium on EARTH. There is a heavenly kingdom and an earthly kingdom.

In the heavenly kingdom, "No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: And the ransomed of the LORD shall return (to Heaven, not staying on Earth 1000 years), and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away" (Isa 35:9,10).

During the Millennium, it looks like we live in Heaven and travel to Earth when and if necessary to do the Lord's will. "A glorious high throne from the beginning (Gen. 1:1) is the place of our sanctuary" (Jer. 17:12).

In the earthly kingdom, there are lions: "and the lion shall eat straw like the ox" (Isa. 11:7). "In that day (the millennial Day of the Lord) there shall be a root of Jesse (YHVH, who is also in YHVHSHUA, Y'shua, Jesus), which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his (Christ's) rest (the Millennium) shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day (the Millennium), that the Lord shall set his hand AGAIN the second time (first time, from 1897 to 1948+) to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be LEFT" (Isa. 11:10,11).

> Certainly sounds like a second rapture (pre-wrath), doesn't it? There would
> therefore have to be a first (Pre-Trib) rapture as well!

I think both Raptures are past history by this time. This is the millennial Kingdom of Christ. Isa. 12:5,6 says, "Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done (past tense) excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion (the earthly one): for great is the Holy One of Israel (Jesus Christ) IN THE MIDST OF THEE." Agape

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Do you think it's possible that since after Christ's resurrection, many where raised from the dead and taken with Him to heaven 40 days later, and since Paul said that the dead in Christ will rise first, that dead Church Age Saints shall be resurrected 40 days prior to the Firstfruits Rapture?

My reply

Jesus took the OT saints to Heaven on the same day he was resurrected. When Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father" (John 20:17). Later that day, Jesus said to the ten, "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Lu. 24:39). In between, he had taken captivity captive and had taken the OT saints to Heaven.

It is possible that the dead in Christ could rise a bit before the Rapture, but Jesus says that he comes quickly, so I expect everything to happen quickly on that day. With the power that the creator has revealed to us in the 24-hour day in which he created anew the whole animal kingdom, he can give new bodies to the saved in one big hurry. The power of our God is awesome.

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Re: 144000 and "First Fruits"
I enjoy your site very much and truly appeciate all your hard work. May God continue to bless you richly.

The 144,000 that appear in Revelation 14 are called "first fruits".  My thought is that this a different 144,000 that is in Revelation 7.  In Matthew's gospel it says that after Jesus was crucified many graves were opened and then 3 days later after Jesus rose from the dead, these old testament saints appeared to many.  I read somewhere (maybe on your site here) that extra-bblical sources say this was a worldwide resurrection.  We don't know what happen to these people.

It is my thought that these are the "First Fruits" resurrection and they are the 144,000 in Revelation 14. I think also this could be the fulfillment of the prophecies for a springtime "rapture"

What do you think about this possiblity? Love in Jesus

My reply

I think the 144,000 is the same in both Rev. 7 and 14. Jesus took the OT saints to Heaven on Resurrection Day in 30 AD. In John 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." Then the same day at evening, he said to the ten, "handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Lu. 24:39). Also, the Rapture of the Tribulation saints is on the Feast of Trumpets, not in the spring. It is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.

Rev. 14 is a parenthetical section. We have to look for what I call match marks to see where it fits in the schedule of end-time events. It all takes place on one day. I expect it to be the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007.

First on the agenda of the day that is like no other--ever (Dan. 12:1), is the Coronation of Christ. The clue is in Rev. 14:14. The "Son of man" (Christ) has on his head "a golden CROWN." Because of Song of Sol. 3:11, I think Mary is allowed the priviledge of crowning him King of kings and Lord of lords on the day of the Marriage of the Lamb. Song 3:11 in the Amplified says that king Solomon, the son of David and type of Christ, the greater Son of David, was "crowned on the day of his wedding."

After the Coronation comes the Marriage of the Lamb, then the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The Tribulation saints are not called to the wedding, but to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The order of events can be seen in Rev. 19:6-9: "the Lord God omnipotent REIGNETH. Let us ...rejoice, and give honour to him: for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB is come, and his wife hath made herself ready...Blessed are they which are CALLED (Rapture II) unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB.

The parable in Lu. 12:35-37 also shows that the wedding is before the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It says, "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning: And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM THE WEDDING; that when he cometh and knocketh they (the Laodiceans, Rev. 3:20) may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching...he shall...make them to sit down to meat, and will...serve them." This includes the 144,000.

Dan. 12:1,2 shows us what day Rapture II takes place. It says, "AND at that time (first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, when the False Prophet "shall come to his end," Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: and AT THAT TIME thy people (including the 144,000 Jews) SHALL BE DELIVERED, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." In other words, on the Day of Jacob's Trouble, Rapture II will take place just before God's Wrath is poured out on unbelievers.

As Rev. 14 begins, we see the 144,000 of Rev. 7 in Heaven. At Rapture I, the assembly sang "a new song" (Rev. 5:9). At Rapture II, the completed assembly sings "AS IT WERE a new song before the throne." They "are virgins" (14:4), the foolish ones who have now "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14).

The entire group of "FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (14:4) is now complete. The last rank (tagmati, "order" in I Cor. 15:23) of the firstfruits resurrection is in Heaven. All are the Body of Christ. First the head (Christ) was born into Heaven, with the OT saints following him. Next, the Bride of Christ (the Pre-Trib Rapture) and a bit later, the rest of the Body of Christ are born into Heaven (the Pre-Wrath Rapture). The two Raptures are like the two feet of the Body of Christ.

This is when I Cor. 15:51-53 is fulfilled. It says, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP (Rapture II): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This is the "last trump." It is one of the two assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4. It says, "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER...use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both, at the last trump), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel (elders, Rev. 4:4), shall gather themselves unto thee."

At the first trump, we have the Pre-Trib Rapture. At the last trump, we have the Pre-Wrath Rapture. At that point, the Earth is scrubbed clean of believers because the Wrath of God is going to fall on the unbelievers at noon (Zech 2:4,5) that same day.

We see this in Rev. 14:7, "for the hour of his judgment is come." In one hour Babylon will be destroyed. First, Christ reaps the Tribulation saints (14:14-16), "and the earth was reaped." Like Lot, they are saved just before the fire falls (Lu. 17:29). Like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, they hear "ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and COME HITHER" as they are saved from the fiery furnace (Dan. 3:26-28).

Only after the Tribulation saints are safe in Heaven is "the vine of the earth" cast "into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city" (not in Jerusalem, but asteroid pieces hit in the Mediterranean and at Babylon, Rev. 8:8,10).

This is the day Mark 13:24-27 talks about. It says, "in those days, after that tribulation (it is the 2300th day, Dan. 8:14), the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (sixth seal, Rev. 6:12), And the stars (asteres, asteroids) of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." This is the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30. The Second Advent is still 7 months future (Ezek. 39:12). "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (Rapture II) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those caught up in Rapture I).

As soon as the Tribulation saints are in Heaven, the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place. Seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. At the same time that the saints are receiving their rewards in Heaven, the unbelievers on Earth are receiving their just rewards for their unbelief.

Rev. 11:15-18 explains, "The seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats (thrones), fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (Gog's army attacked Israel, Ezek. 38), and thy wrath is come (saves Israel), and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

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In P&C 349, you say, "...I would love for the Rapture to take place on Rosh HaShanah 1999, but I don't think that it will. If Song of Solomon 2:10-14 applies, and I think it does, it says that the winter is past and the rain is over and gone. That lets out Rosh HaShanah, the month of the former rains..."

Since the year is a continuous cycle, this would seem to imply that the Rapture could happen anytime during that cycle, except winter or during the rainy season. Does this expand the window any?

My reply

The rainy season starts with the former rains of Tishri, lasts through the winter, and ends with the latter rains of Nisan. That alone leaves just spring and summer. The fact that there are flowers, green figs and firstripe grapes limits the window to spring or early summer.

His reply

Thank you. Your insight is much appreciated. You have a God-given gift of making the complicated into the simple.

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I have been keeping up with your P&C posts and have read much of your background material. I appreciate deeply the exhaustive, intense and lengthy study of Scripture you have made. With all of that said, I'm still having some difficulty in accepting the idea of a Pentecost rapture. Here's why. Pentecost was not only the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the very young Church, but also marked the beginning of the Gentile age. The rapure, on the other hand, marks the close of the Gentile age and the beginning (again) of the Jewish age. Would it not seem right and fitting that God would use a distinctly Jewish Holy Day to establish such a mark? You are so far ahead of me in your understanding of these things, I'm afraid I'll never catch up! God Bless

My reply

Pentecost was when the Hebrew writers figured Israel was espoused to the Lord and given the ten commandments. It is a "distinctly Jewish Holy Day" given to the Israelites in Lev. 23. It was one of the three feasts when they were to GO UP to Jerusalem (Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles), making it a major feast for them.

Just for background, I call the first 2000-year age since man began to be tried as mortal and knowing both good and evil the Age of the Gentiles (starting in BC 4004/3). During that time, God dealt with all mankind. The second 2000-year age was the Age of the Jews (starting in BC 2004/3). During that time, God dealt mainly with the Israelites. The third and last 2000-year age is the Age of the Church (starting in BC 4/3). I think it's normal end was in 5758, our l997/98 AD (2000 - 3 + 1 because there is no zero year = 1998).

I think there is a ten-year period (Rev. 2:10) added to this age before the millennial Day of the Lord begins on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) (5758 + 10 = 5768). It is ten years on the Jewish calendar, nine on ours. Roughly, three of these ten years seem to be before the Pre-Trib Rapture (1998, 1999 and 2000) and seven after the Rapture (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007). Actually, I think we are talking about Pentecost, 1998, Pentecost, 1999 and then Pentecost, 2000 for the Rapture, and Pentecost/Feast of Weeks, 2001 for the beginning of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9:27. That day is the first of the 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

The Tribulation is shortened or no flesh would be saved (Mt. 24:22). Mankind would go the way of the dinosaurs. As it is, there will be so few men left that a child could write the number (Isa. 10:19).

Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both TIME and JUDGMENT." I think this Judgment includes the church's judgment and the Tribulation judgment. Remember that judgment begins at the house of God (I Peter 4:17). The Tribulation is a time of trial that is coming upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). I think the reason this entire period is inserted in the timeline is because, this way, it could be left out if man obeyed God and there was no need of a special time of testing to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Because 1998 was so definitely marked by the modern parallels (see Home Page), I thought the Rapture would be in 1998. I didn't read the parable of the barren fig tree and the parable of the ten virgins carefully enough. I didn't see the tarrying. Now, it seems that God is showing us by the process of elimination which of the four years in the parable of the barren fig tree is the right one for the Rapture. Christ speaks only in the third year. I didn't see that before. In Green's Interlinear, we can see that he says, "For three years I have come LOOKING for fruit on this fig-tree" (Israel). Since he speaks in the third year, it seems that this will be the year we hear him say "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1).

This being said, let me also say that we are not told that the Rapture has to take place on a feast day. I just think it will. According to Acts 17:26, "the times" are "before appointed." It looks like the pre-incarnate Christ, YHVH of hosts, decided before the world began when important events would take place and then set the feasts on those days.

We should get ready and stay ready at all times, so we can't be caught unaware (Mt. 24:50). Jesus told us to watch. If we watch, we will recognize the signs of the approaching day. Noah knew seven days ahead of time. Maybe we will too. Maybe one last prophecy will be fulfilled in such a definite manner that there will be no mistaking it.

I hope Christ comes for us sooner. I can't see it much later. Keep watching, studying Scripture and looking for clues. Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you ALL THINGS" (Mk. 13:23). It looks like the last generation can "know ALL THINGS" in the "last time" (year). See I John 2:18-28). Agape

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I have been reading your P&C's each morning. It is nice to start the day with a little "group bible study." Your "group", of course, is thousands of believers!

I am praying for you.

I don't know how you feel about bible codes, but you may find this interesting:

My reply

Thanks for your nice comments and your prayers.

As for trusting that the peace covenant will be signed Sept. 15, 1999, I don't. If dates in the Bible Codes were trustworthy, the Rapture would have happened May 31, 1998. I have a matrix in Ruth that has all these words: Yeshua, call together, Ha'natzal (the Rapture), Shilhuv (Rapture), Sivan, May 31, 5/31/98, midnight, Shavuot (Pentecost), wheat, harvest, saint, Ascent, Heaven, Eternal and Enoch. I have one from Gen. 5. It has Natzal (Rapture), Shilhuv (Rapture) escape, heaven, May 31, 5/98, 31, 5758 (1998), resurrection, Enoch and Ruth.

A woman called me and told me that Agee was found four times with June 20. The Rapture did not happen on that day either. As for me, I am going by the surface text only. I know it is trustworthy. Sept. 15, 1999 is Tishri 5. Do you find any Scripture that would indicate that the Tribulation would start on Tishri 5?

The Tribulation is the Seventieth WEEK of Daniel. The Feast of WEEKS makes more sense to me. The 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 fit from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 by Jewish inclusive reckoning. I know the Day of God's Wrath is on a feast (Mal. 2:3) and that it is the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3).

I just stumbled onto something. John 4:40 says that Jesus "would tarry with them (the Samaritans): and he abode there two days." I looked up the meaning of Samaria. It means "his throne." That would indicate that he left his throne after two days. What for? to come get us on the third day? or third year? More food for thought. Agape

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Thanks for putting together the paths of the comets, which Joe H. forwarded to me. I've since gotten some refined info on that and posted it and posted it at on what Comet Hyakutake might be telling us. I don't have all the details, just a general sketch of what it's saying so far. I've got some info on it's REAL path. Got to be carefull on this, because sometimes it's path is described as including constellations it only came near, rather than ones it went through.

There may be more meaning that meets the eye. Maybe this comet will interact with other signs in some way. For example, I said before time I didn't think Hale-Bopp was prophetic, but I've been re-thinking that in the last few days. It was on it's way back to the sails of Argo when Nova Velorum erupted. Maybe the two together mean something, because next time Hale-Bopp comes towards the sails it will only graze the outer rim of the sails, but not penetrate like it did the first two times it crossed the sails. So maybe these two signs together suggest that Nova Velorum, representing the work of the Holy Spirit in the church, will keep Satan from taking control of the church in his final attempt. Hale-Bopp (representing satan's attempt to take control of the church) penetrates the sails twice, then nova Velorum erupts in the sails (repesenting the work of the Holy Spirit), and the third time it tries to penetrate, it fails and only reaches the border of it.

Perhaps Hyakutake means more than on the surface. We have to look at what other signs in the sky interact with it to get the full picture, I think. Maybe this comet is a setup for something else.

See for my comments on what Nova Velorum probably means.

My reply

Thanks for the good information. I hope everyone interested in the new star's meaning will visit your site. I liked what I found.

I also find it interesting that Nova Velorum appeared in the sails of Argo on May 22, 1999. That day was Sivan 7.

Back on Jan. 26, 1999, I was feeling good that I finally thought I got the true date of Pentecost figured out. It came out Sivan 7. Then I drove right into the end of the most gorgeous double rainbow Ed and I had ever seen. It was the only time either of us had ever seen the end of a rainbow. Up to then, I didn't know you actually could ever see the end. But, here we were, driving right in it. The bright sparkling colors were dancing on every streak of the light rain, splashing all over the street and cars ahead of us, and making a sparkling colored brightness far up overhead that defies description--just too majestic.

Both the unusual rainbow, sign of God's covenant, and the new star in the sails of Argo having a tie-in with Sivan 7 could be more than a hint of which day the Rapture would take place on. I keep thinking of it.

PS: I visited the first site after I wrote you. I like it too.

When you decide if it went through a constellation, did you take into consideration that a larger space is allotted to each constellation than the star chart shows? Kerrod's Star Guide shows the whole area belonging to each one.

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Updated 7-5-99