Pro and Con 353
Incoming Email In P/C 342 you give the 'average' length of a biblical generation based on the number of years between the birth of Abram and the birth of Jesus (2030) divided by the total number of generations between them as given in Matthew (42). Result: 48.33 (44.17 if computed from the death of Abraham). But then you mention a counting of the number of 2300 day periods and "checking to see if the final year was a leap year." I can't quite follow where that switch came from. Was something deleted from the "incoming" message that would help me follow your response.
Also, given this average, can we justify using 40 years from 1967 to His coming? If either 48 or 44 years is used, doesn't this mean that we can not expect the rapture until sometime around 2008 and the end of the tribulation around 2015? Or have your calculations allowed for some other factor not immediately obvious here?
My reply Thanks so much for putting the P & C number. I have such a hard time tracking down where what was said when it is omitted. Here is what I said:
"Abram was born in 2008 AH. That was BC 2035. I think Jesus was born in BC 5. BC 2030 divided by 42 = 48.33. The "from Abraham" might mean from his death. He lived 175 years, so he died in 2183 AH/BC 1860. BC 1860 - 5 divided by 42 = 44.17. When I was counting 2300-day periods and checking to see if the final year was a leap year, I took these into consideration. The only place I could see that the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 fit was from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, the first day of 5768, which is a leap year."
The 2300 days is in Dan. 8:14. It includes both the Tribulation days Israel sacrifices and the days that they don't because the temple is desecrated by the False Prophet. Therefore, we can figure out how much the Tribulation is shortened (Mt. 24:22). There are the 1260 days during which the two witnesses prophesy (Rev. 11:3). Then, the Great Tribulation, the last half of the Tribulation, is shortened to 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040).
The last year of the 2300-day period must be a Jewish leap year, because there are 7 months (Ezek. 39:12) between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1, when there are only six months in regular years. Tishri 1 is the Day of God's Wrath on the first day of the Millennium. Nisan 1 is the day of the Second Advent (Ezek. 29:17,21; De. 11:14; Hos. 6:3).
I tried again last night when I got home from jury duty to see if there is any other place the 2300 days will fit. I can't find any place but from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. Here are my notes to myself from yesterday:
Pentecost, Sivan 6 or 7? Jews keep both days.
The third year seems to be the only year that Jesus comes and SPEAKS in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. He comes looking the first two years, and does not come or speak in the extra year. Maybe from Pentecost, 2000, to Pentecost/Feast of Weeks, 2001, is the gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation.
As I reread Lev. 23 in the New Scofield Reference Bible. I saw something clearer than ever before. The sabbath definitely refers to the feasts as well as to Saturday. I knew they are because they are holy convocations, but you can tell by the use of the word "sabbath" as well.
Lev. 23:24: "In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a SABBATH, a memorial of blowing of trumpets." Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets definitely is a sabbath.
Verse 27, 32: the 'day of atonement" is on "the tenth day of this seventh month...It shall be unto you a SABBATH of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls. In the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening unto evening, shall ye celebrate your SABBATH." All these days start on the previous evening and last 24 hours. Thus, the Passover in Egypt started on the preceeding evening, passed through midnight, and ended as Nisan 15 began.
Here, we have two feasts, Tishri 1 and 10, and both are sabbaths. They cannot both be the weekly Saturday sabbath. There is more than one week between those dates.
Likewise, the 10th (Atonement) and 15th (Tabernacles) cannot both be the weekly Sabbath. They are not seven days apart. Verse 39: concerning Tabernacles, "Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month...ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days. On the first day (Tishri 15) shall be a SABBATH, and on the eighth day (Tishri 22) shall be a SABBATH." These are: (1) Tishri 15, (2) 16, (3) 17, (4) 18, (5) 19, (6) 20, (7) 21 and (8) 22.
Verse 5: Nisan 14 is Passover, even to even. Verse 6: Nisan 15 is Unleavened Bread. Verse 11: Nisan 16 is Firstfruits (the wave offering) "ON THE NEXT DAY AFTER THE SABBATH the priest shall wave it."
Therefore the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) was a sabbath. Firstfruits is the "next day" (Nisan 16).
Note in the New Scofield Reference Bible: "The Feast of First Fruits...was held on the sixteenth day."
Nisan 16 is the day to reckon from in counting the Omer before Pentecost. Verse 15-17: "And ye shall count unto you FROM THE NEXT DAY (Nisan 16) AFTER THE SABBATH (Nisan 15), from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering (Firstfruits); seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the next day after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meal offering unto the Lord. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves...baked with leaven; they are the first fruits unto the LORD."
In 2000, Nisan 16 falls on Friday. We count off seven Fridays, 49 days, and we end on Sivan 6. Thus, by different means, I AGAIN arrive at Sivan 7 for the 50th day, which is Pentecost. Sivan 7 was what I had decided on the day Ed and I drove in the end of the rainbow on Jan. 26, 1999. Counting the days, Nisan 16 + 50, on the Talmudic calendar by inclusive reckoning, Sivan 7 is the 50th day. How could it be less? How could it ever be Sivan 6?
How can I reconcile this with the 2300-day Tribulation starting on Sivan 6. I counted those days again. By inclusive reckoning, on the Talmudic calendar, Sivan 6 in 2001, to Tishri 1, in 2007, is exactly 2300 days.
The year 5768 is a leap year, necessary since there are 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1 (Ezek. 39:12). The leap year before that is 5765. From Pentecost 1999 to Trumpets in 2005 is only 2329 days, by inclusive reckoning, and Pentecost 1999 is past anyway. The Sign of the End of the Age in 1967 + 40 years = 2007. Therefore, I don't see how the Tribulation can be shifted at all.
The Jews today keep both Sivan 6 and 7 as Pentecost. Acts 2: "AND when the day of Pentecost was FULLY COME." They keep both the true 49th day and the 50th day. Sivan 7 is when it is "fully come."
On the Talmudic calendar, Sivan 6 is actually figured 50 days from Passover, which they erroneously list on Nisan 15 instead of 14. That is not correct, but they do not list the Feast of Unleavened Bread or the Feast of Firstfruits on the Talmudic calendar, only "Pesach." They could not omit Pesach for it was when they came out of Egypt and one of the three feasts when the males had to go up to Jerusalem.
Thus, I think the Rapture should also be when Sivan 7 has "fully come." Sivan 7, 5760 is our Saturday, June 10, 2000. The Rapture on the Sabbath day, the 7th day of the week, on the 7th day of the month, in the 7th year of the Seven Good Years fits well.
The False Prophet's number is 666, man, man, man. The Rapture number seems to be 777, the number associated with God.
Well, as you can see my time on jury duty was not all wasted. At the first part of the day, I studied Lev. 23. Then I did more on this after I came home last night.
One way I can tell that we should go by 40 years in a generation is from Mt. 23:36. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." They did, in 70 AD.
Incoming Email FROM CAPS:
Marilyn, someone on the Five Doves had asked a question re the Jubilee year and the Rapture. Here is the answer I sent in: Concerning Jaime's question regarding the Jubilee, here is my input. I have noticed this discussion in the past as well--i.e. whether the Rapture will occur in a Jubilee year or not. Remember that almost the entire chapter of I Cor. 15 is discussing the resurrection of the dead , including "ranks" as well as "how" the dead come forth. In this chapter Paul gives a PRINCIPLE concerning the resurrection that may help with understanding the Jubilee. It is found in I Cor. 15:45,46 "And so it is written, the First man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit (i.e. Notice ! ) that was not first which is Spiritual, but that which is Natural; and AFTERWARD that which is Spiritual." Is it possible that this principle applies to the Jubilee as well ? If so, then the physical nation of Israel would have their Jubilee year FIRST and the AFTERWARDS (i.e. the following year) the Church (Spiritual Israel) would have their Jubilee, including the Rapture/Resurrection of the dead!!
My reply On Jan. 23, 1950, the Knesset restored Jerusalem as capital of Israel. If we add another 50 years, we end up with a Jubilee in 2000, but I'm not sure that would be valid.
I figure that the Jubilee was to be counted from the Exodus and kept on the 50th year when they were in the land and their wars were finished. Since the Exodus was in the Jewish 2231 (2513 AH, 1530 BC), and the Jubilee cycle is a 49-year cycle (the 50th year is also the 1st of the next cycle), the 72nd cycle would be 5759 (72 x 49 = 3528) (3528 + 2231 = 5759). The Jubilee in the 50th year would be announced on Tishri 10, 5760 (Sept. 20, 1999) and would then start the following Nisan 1, 5760 (Apr. 6, 2000). It would end Nisan 1, 5761 (Mar., 25, 2001). If the Rapture is on Pentecost 2000, it would be in the true Jubilee year.
Incoming Email Thank you for providing a wake up call! I have a question for you. I believe the Six Day War was in June of 1967. Adding 40 years (per the parable of the fig tree), it seems as though the Second Advent would occur prior to June of 2007 (possibly Sept. 2006). Your web page references are consistent with this, however you believe the Second Advent will occur in September of 2007. This appears to exceed the generation (40 years) time table within the parable. I would appreciate your thoughts on this, as it has puzzled me for some time.:-) In his love
My reply Thanks. I hope everyone is ready now. I think we are on the last lap.
> it seems as though the Second Advent would > occur prior to June of 2007 (possibly Sept. 2006)
I didn't figure from June, just 1967 (1967 + 40 = 2007). I knew that the Day of God's Wrath had to be on the Feast of Trumpets (Mal. 2:3; Joel 2:1-3) and the Second Advent on the following Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). The Jewish year 5768 starts on Tishri 1 in our 2007. Since that year has to be a leap year for there to be 7 months between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1 (Ezek. 39:12), it has to be 5768, which is a leap year. If you back up from there, the next leap year will be 5765 (2005). I don't think that is feasable. The 2300 days between the Feast of Weeks that begins the Tribulation and the Feast of Weeks that ends the shortened Tribulation only fits from the Feast of Weeks, 2001, to the Feast of Trumpets, 2007 (by inclusive reckoning).
> you believe the Second Advent will occur in September of 2007.
No. I believe it will be Nisan 1, 5768, our Apr. 6, 2008, the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar. The Jews have to bury the dead seven months to cleanse the land for Christ's return in glory (Ezek. 39:12).
Incoming Email FWD: FAX FROM CAPS:
Marilyn, here is some information I sent re a question on the 5 Doves site. I thought you might be interested. God bless.
You said you could not get this to me by email. I know how it is. Seven of my nine emails I just sent came back. All the problems are not yet over. However, I know that two of my emails were received on the other end this morning, and I did get four today, my first since one came in early Sat. morning. I wonder if these glitches are because of Y2K bug. Didn't some states go on new fiscal year July 1st? Hope it all gets straightened out soon, whatever is causing problems.
I gather that Cheryl said that the two loaves waved on Pentecost pictured the firstfruits and the main harvest. You said, "Some have said that the First Loaf pictures the Birth of the church at Pentecost and the Second Loaf pictures the Pre-trib. rapture at Pentecost." That could be me, for that is what I think.
I like your statement, "since the Church is pictured as 'many members, but being 'one' loaf' then the idea that the two loaves represents Jews and Gentiles is not possible."
Then you said, "there is every reason to believe that the Rapture--Pre and Post Trib will occur on this day (Pentecost). Remember that in Rev. ch 8 BEFORE the Wrath of God is started that there was a 'pause' for 1/2 hour. Does this picture the pause from Pentecost until the Feast of Trumpets when the wrath starts?"
I think the Pre-Trib Rapture will be the second fulfilment of Pentecost, but the Pre-Wrath Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets. The Tribulation saints are taken up (Rev. 7:14) between the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and the seventh (Rev. 8). The last verse in Rev. 6 says, "For the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand." The Day of God's Wrath is the Feast of Trumpets.
Mal. 2:3: "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it."
Hos. 9:5,6: "What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the feast of the LORD? For, lo, they are gone because of destruction."
Joel 2:1-3: "BLOW ye the TRUMPET in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people (all nations, Isa. 34:2; Zech. 14:2) and a strong (Gog's army of Ezek. 38); there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations."
Rev. 8:1,2: "AND when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour." I think this is while Christ is being seated as judge at the Judgment Seat of Christ. "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God: and to them were given seven trumpets." These are judgment trumpets.
The falling walls of Jericho was a type of this Day of God's Wrath. Ezek. 38:20 says, "and every wall shall fall to the ground."
Rev. 11:18 shows that the Judgment Seat of Christ is on the Day of God's Wrath. It also shows that every saint is safely in Heaven receiving their rewards while the unbelievers on Earth get their rewards for their unbelief. It says, "And the nations (united nations) were angry, and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
I am glad you pointed out Joshua 6. Verses 3-6 say, "And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days." This could prefigure the 6000 years that are past. "And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets." This suggests the Feast of Trumpets on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the seventh millennium. "And it shall come to pass, that when they make A LONG BLAST with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the TRUMPET, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ASCEND UP every man straight before him. And Joshua (i.e., Jesus) the son of Nun (the Eternal) called the priests, and said unto them, Take up the ark of the covenant, and let seven priests bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ARK of the LORD."
Like you said, "Notice who blows this Trumpet (the long blast) ----God Himself." This is the extra trump of the day that calls the Tribulation saints to "ASCEND UP" in the barely Pre-Wrath Rapture.
Look how Rev. 11:18,19 ties in the ARK mentioned in Joshua 6:6. It says, "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged...And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ARK of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." In Joshua, we have the type. In Revelation, we have the antitype.
Incoming Email Thank you for the time you took to respond, I am very appreciative. However, could you have made a mistake about the meaning of the poems (Songs 2:10 through 2:14), therefore confused the time of the first rapture?
"Song:2:10: My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. Song:2:11: For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; Song:2:12: The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; Song:2:13: The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. Song:2:14: O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely."
It seems likely that this could be applicable to the believers for the second rapture. The first rapture time slot could be the month of Tevet which is given in the book of Esther.
Any thoughts on this? Thank you.
My reply I think the second Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets. That group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. It is between the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and the breaking of the seventh seal (Rev. 8:1). The "great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17), but the Rapture is before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth in Rev. 8.
Incoming Email Glad to see you are still with us and thank you for your reply to my questions.
You wrote "David was a type of Christ, the Son of David. The Israelites were to become as the sand of of sea. To be presumptuous and count them when he was not told to do so was the wrong thing to do." This implies that the rather lengthy enumerations of the Israelites in previous books (Exodus, Numbers...) were ordered by God. I don't recall that Moses was explicitly told to count the people. I might have missed it. I guess this is one of those read between the lines things that you pick up after a while. Also, I thought there was a more...generic(?)...meaning for the phrase 'go up', rather than "as Elijah had been caught up to Heaven". I just wasn't sure what it was. It seems to me that this phrase is used many times in the Old Testament. Its application to the situation with Elisha and the 42 mockers was were I was getting confused. Still head scratching.
My reply In Nu. 1:13, "the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; From twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies."
This established something we would need to know to interpret the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. It says, "When his branch (modern Israel) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., 19 years old). Israel was 19 when the Six-Day War fulfilled this parable in 1967. At that time, Israel grew four huge leaves, Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golan Heights and West Bank.
Incoming Email Does my memory mislead me, or is this the site which forecast the Second Coming at some point last year? I am as firm a believer in the return of our Lord as you are, but I am bound to wonder, if you did make such a forecast, whether experience has taught you anything? Have you ever read the works of the late Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones on Revelation? If not, I commend them to you. Yours in His name
My reply Yes. The year 1998 was so definitely marked, I thought it would be the year of the Rapture. I didn't read the parable of the barren fig tree (Lu. 13:6-90) closely enough until someone else saw it. Jesus only comes and looks the first two years. He comes and SPEAKS in the third year. He neither comes nor speaks in the extra year. Therefore, I am hoping to hear the "Come up hither" on Pentecost, 2000. It seems that the Lord is showing us by the process of elimination which year it should be.
The year 2000 is the last of the seven good years that started when the Oslo Agreements were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. The seven bad years are the Tribulation. If we start with the Jewish Tishri 1, 5754 (our Sept. 16, 1993, when the agreement was ratified in Jerusalem), and add seven years, we come to the Jewish 5761, which runs from our Sept. 30, 2000 to our Sept. 18, 2001. The Feast of Weeks (May 28, 2001) is within this year. I think that is when the Tribulation will begin. Adding another seven years to Tishri 1, 5761 is Tishri 1, 5768, which is our Sept. 13, 2007 (the first signing of the Oslo Agreements was Sept. 13). Things are adding up. More details are on my Home Page.
No. I don't think I have read Dr Martyn Lloyd Jones. At least it doesn't ring a bell. At one time, I told Ed I was going to read all the books in BIOLA's library on Revelation. I read scads of them, but I couldn't get through them all, there were too many. We moved away, so that stopped me.
My book on Revelation is titled Revelations 2000. I did not give it that title. Avon Books did. I called it The Master Key: Revelation's Secrets Revealed. Lots of the first chapter is posted on my Web site.
Incoming Email Interesting tid bit I was just listening to a sermon this morning on things that science is beginning to prove in Scripture. This is fascinating. If you were to travel away from the earth for 15 days, at the speed of light, and then travel back to earth in 15 days at the same speed, you would only have aged 30 days. But, the earth would have aged 30,000 years. In other words, 1 day at the speed of light is a thousand years on earth. I know it doesn't have anything to do with the Rapture, but I just thought I'd share it with you.
Incoming Email Robin, I read your post on the Five Doves. I want to share this with you: there is a minor jewish festival called "Tu B'Av." If you go to: http://www.vjtorah.com/, click on "Holidays," you can scroll to Tu B'Av. It means 15th of Av, which is July 28th this year. It is called the Jewish Valentine's Day, and is also known as the Feast of the Grape Harvest, Feast of Unity, Feast of Love, and the Festival of the Lord. I, too, have a great anticipation in my spirit about this day. What a glorious thing if this is the day that we will see Jesus face to face! I look forward to meeting you.....soon, I pray. What a day of rejoicing that will be, all of us together with our Lord. Keep watching and praying, with all diligence. In His Love, Sharon Kaiser --- To Marilyn: I got this in my mail after she read my post on FiveDoves. What do you think about this date as a possible rapture day? GRAPE HARVEST? Didn't J.R. Church say something about that and also Marilyn? I think this is REALLY interesting! Write me back and let me know what you think!
My reply It sure would be nice, but by that time, according to Unger, the vegetation generally is dried up. The ground is parched, dry and hard, a dreary waste of stubble. It doesn't sound like Song of Sol. 2:10-14, when there are spring flowers, green figs and firstripe grapes.
See what you think of the following.
While waiting on Ed at Cardiac Rehab today, I was reading Numbers 12:14. Because of murmuring against Moses, Miriam became leprous. It says, "let her be shut out of the camp seven days, and AFTER THAT let her be received in again."
If this could be a picture of those Tribulation saints left behind, this is how it could stack up. Let's say the Pre-Trib Rapture happens on Pentecost, Sivan 7, 5760 (Saturday, June 10, 2000). Those left behind would be "shut out" seven years, from Pentecost, Sivan 7, 5960 to Pentecost, Sivan 7, 5767 (our May 24, 2007). Then, AFTER THAT, they would be able to come back in the camp at the Pre-Wrath Rapture on Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept. 13, 2007).
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