Pro and Con 354

Uploaded 7-12-99

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Robin MacAhan wrote: Subject: Our Father's Point of View (the split rapture debate)
To: spirit5@mbox2.singnet.com.sg: Cc to: mjagee@pe.net

Now that we all have pretty much read everything about the signs from all different sources that our rapture will be on September 11th of this year, I want to address another issue. I wasn't ever going to touch this subject because it is too controversial, but I think now it should be addressed. I want to talk about the ongoing split rapture theory.... I know a lot of people on this web site truly believe in a split rapture because of what the Scriptures say, i.e., ten virgins, Church of Philadelphia, 'being counted worthy', etc. However, I would like for all of us to stop in our tracks and take our 'boxing gloves' off for a moment and sit down and think about this from our Father's point of view. Let's go back to the first day of creation for a moment. Why did God make man in the first place? Wasn't it similar to why we have children? If, we being human really felt wonderful in creating our children, how much more would our Father feel at creating us! Now, that being the case, did He not say, "be fruitful and multiply?" Why did He say that? Was it not because He wanted as many children as He could have because He saw that it was "GOOD!"? Since He DID say that, then can we not assume that He WANTED MANY children? Therefore, aren't we ALL His children in some fashion? Since our Father is LOVE, wouldn't it make sense that He would DO something to enable that ALL of His children might be saved? If our Father paid the HIGHEST price He could pay so that we ALL might be saved, then why do we continue to want to judge our brothers and sisters and say that some are going Home and some are not? His Word says that 'God sent Jesus into the world NOT to condemn the world, but that through Him ALL might be saved. Jesus came into this world as a SAVIOR, not as a JUDGE! That won't happen until later. But for now, in this dispensation of grace, what right is it for us to judge our brothers and sisters and say that some are going and some are not? If ALL sin is the same to God, and one sin is as bad as another, then why do we try to 'categorize' them? If we say that those that are lukewarm are not going because they are 'in sin' , what sin are we talking about? Are not those who are liars, gossipers, prideful, deceitful, mischievous, slanderers just as equally sinful as murderers, thieves, drug addicts, and homosexuals? If we say that someone who has accepted Christ into their hearts but still sins will not go into the Kingdom of Heaven, then doesn't that include ALL of us? What does that do for the story of the thief on the cross with Jesus who went to be with Him that very day yet never lived for Him a day in his life? And what about the story of the prodigal son? He gave everything up for a sinful life, and then later came back and repented and was accepted back into His father's house. Repentance is the key word here. Is repentance different for those who are practicing 'major' sins than for those who are practicing 'minor' sins? When you gossip, slander, criticize, lie, etc., and then repent but then do it again the next day or two, is that any different than for those who repent for major sins? Who are we to categorize sin? We are setting ourselves up as judge and jury, are we not? For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Now, as for the last question, that may hurt some of us more than others....if we say that those people are not going to Heaven because of their 'major' sins, then what about those who are gluttons? How many of us overeat and we know it is a sin? To reject a homosexual, a thief, a drug addict, a murderer is to reject someone who is overweight. And that puts those who are overweight in the category of those who sin with the rest of the bunch. I know that both sides of this issue are up for debate and it gets really heated at times more than talking about abortion, or politics. But is that what Jesus wants us to do? Is that why He died for us? So, that we could fight and argue about who is going and who is not? Jesus told us to pray that things would be on earth as they are in Heaven. Is that what we are doing? If there IS a split rapture, then all sin is NOT the same to God. If there IS a split rapture then Jesus and our Father love those who commit the 'minor' sins MORE than those who commit the 'major' sins. Finally, if there IS a split rapture, then the blood of Jesus WAS NOT enough to cover all of our sins, only the minor ones. When we get into thinking that only certain people are going, then we set those people (which are usually ourselves) up to be better than others in Christ. Is that the way Jesus taught us? What happened to esteeming others better than ourselves? In closing, I want to implore all of us to quit throwing Scripture out at each other like arrows in battle and put our theology aside and start thinking about things from our Father's point of view. What is the one thing that will prevail when everything in this world has come to an end... is it not the love of our Father? Does not love (agape) cover a multitude of sins? Our Father's will is that we ALL might be saved, and through Jesus that can be done because He is our GIFT given to us from the depths of our Fathers heart. He couldn't have given us more. When we get to categorizing sin and sinners, we have then forgotten from where we have fallen and ALL have fallen short. If we keep our eyes on our Father's heart, everything will fall into place and love will prevail. In His Love

My reply

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Prov. 16:25). We can't just reason out "Our Father's Point of View" and this Rapture thing in our head. We have to go by what the scriptures say. You are right when you assume that "The LORD hath made all things for himself," but you forget the rest of the verse. Prov. 16:4 ends with, "yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Ask yourself why he made the wicked for the day of evil. One of God's attributes is love, sure, but another of his attributes is perfect justice. You can't have one without the other.

> Why did God make man in the first place?

There is more to it than that God wanted children. He had children, the bene ha Elohim, "sons of God" (Job 1:6), why did he need more? Oh, some of them sinned. They disobeyed him. What does God's perfect justice require him to do about it? Doesn't he have to judge them and put them in prison? That judgment took place is certain. He must have had laws. Jude 6 says, "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkess unto the judgment of the great day."

This judgment is for unbelieving mankind. It is the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17). It is also the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev. 11:18 says, "the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Ezek. 38), and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY THEM WHICH DESTROY THE EARTH."

Here you can see that there are rewards to be earned. There are saints both small and great.

He made man. Why? Was it to prove to Satan that his sentence of life in prison was just? Remember, Satan "was a murderer from the beginning" (John 8:44). If God judged Satan, why would man not be judged? I think that God created man, a smaller and less powerful creature that could not see God, to prove a point to Satan, who sinned even though he could see God. If man, not seeing God, could still obey him, God would be proved just in putting Satan in prison. He sinned when he could see God. I think this is why man must walk by faith, yes, blind faith. However, man can see the things God made and thereby deduce God's "eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse" if they don't believe it (Rom. 1:20).

> If there IS a split rapture then Jesus and our Father love those who
> commit the 'minor' sins MORE than those who commit the 'major' sins.
> Finally, if there IS a split rapture, then the blood of Jesus WAS NOT
> enough to cover all of our sins, only the minor ones

Why are you not afraid to say such a thing against the Almighty (Rev. 1:8)? There ARE two Raptures, and the blood of Jesus WAS ENOUGH to cover ALL of our sins. You are confusing Salvation with Rewards. Salvation is a free gift, given to all who believe in Christ. Rewards have to be earned.

To go in the first Rapture was what Paul was running the race to win. He said, "I press toward the mark for THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS" (Phil. 3:14). In I Cor. 9:24-27, Paul said, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth THE PRIZE? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; But I keep under by body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be A CASTAWAY."

If Paul could be a castaway, we can be a castaway. Could Paul lose his Salvation? No! Neither can we. We are "sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph. 4:30). Then, how could Paul be a castaway? by not winning the race, not reaching "the MARK for THE PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS" (I Cor. 9:27).

There is a mark we need to reach to be able to be accounted worthy of "THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS," when he comes and says, "Come up hither" (Rev. 1:4). Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

You expect all believers to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The Bible says, that we must be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE." It is something we can fail to attain, because we are to pray ALWAYS that we are "ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE."

Will believing in Christ assure that we are "ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE"? If it did, we would not have to pray for it. It would be a sure thing. Therefore, it is NOT a sure thing.

Since it is NOT a sure thing, what will happen to those who are believers in Christ, but are NOT accounted worthy? Are they lost? NO! There is a second Rapture. In it, every believer will be caught up, even if what he has built upon the foundation, which is Christ, is nothing but wood, hay and stubble. "If any man's WORK shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." "If any man's WORK abide which he hath built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD" (I Cor. 3:15,14). God offers to the lost Salvation, to the saved, rewards.

One reward is to be a wise virgin, and go with the Bridegroom when he comes. Those are the Bride of Christ. The rest are the remainder of the Body of Christ. All the ten are virgins. They all have lamps. However, only five have enough oil (Holy Spirit) in their vessels (i.e., bodies) with their lamps. Their lamps are sputtering, threatening to go out. Why do you think it says to "buy" oil. We have to do something to get it.

You have the right idea about repentence. When we repent, we "buy" oil. The next sin may lessen our supply of oil by erecting a barrier between us and God. No wonder the Bible keeps telling us to be filled with the Holy Spirit. No wonder we were given I John 1:9. Confession of sin to God is necessary so that he can cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we do not take heed, we will be so sorry. There "shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS" (Lu. 12:46). Mt. 24:51; 25:1,2 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. THEN shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish."

The first group to be raptured appear in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, BEFORE the first seal is broken. "They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." This is the Pre-Trib Rapture, when the wise virgins are caught up.

The second group to be raptured appear in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. They too are out "of all nations" (Rev. 7:9). "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have WASHED THEIR ROBES, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." They are caught up between the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and the breaking of the seventh seal (Rev. 8). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

Those wise virgins that are caught up the first time are the Philadelphians who did not need to be told to repent. They already have repented. Therefore, "BECAUSE thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (Green's Interlinear, ek, "out of") the hour of temptation (peirasmou, trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). The "open door" is set before the Philadelphians (Rev. 3:8), not the Laodiceans. The Laodiceans need to repent and become Philadelphians.

The foolish virgins are the lukewarm Laodiceans. They are told, "I counsel thee to BUY of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich: and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear: and ANOINT THINE EYES WITH EYESALVE, THAT THOU MAYEST SEE. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (Rev. 3:18,19).

Isaiah 59:2 says, "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."

Any sin causes a barrier between us and God. The Holy Spirit is being quenched. At this point, if we confess our sins (those committed after accepting Christ), he is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9). Then the Holy Spirit, as living water within us, wells up and fills us. At that point, we should be pure virgins with enough oil to be taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

"THE righteous perisheth (abad, evacuates): and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that the RIGHTEOUS is TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (Isa. 57:1). The first Rapture is before the Tribulation and the final harlot world church, but it is near--not here, but near--when the Rapture takes place. Pentecost, 2000, fits if the Tribulation/Seventieth Week of Daniel is to start on Pentecost/Feast of Weeks in 2001. Read Song of Sol. 2:10-14 for clues to which season to expect to hear the Bridgroom's voice. I think the first Rapture will be on Pentecost, the second on the Feast of Trumpets.

Micah 7:1,2 says, "WOE (comes in the Tribulation) is me! (he is role playing) for I am AS (symbolic language) when they HAVE GATHERED THE SUMMER FRUITS (i.e., the first Rapture is past), as the grapegleanings of the vintage (i.e., in Tishri): there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the FIRSTRIPE FRUIT (i.e., the first Rapture, in the spring or early summer). The good man is perished (abad, ESCAPED, i.e., already raptured) out of the earth."

Joel 2:15,16 says, "Blow the TRUMPET in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: GATHER THE PEOPLE, sanctify the congregation, assemble the ELDERS, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts (i.e., ALL underage children go in the second Rapture): let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet" (chupah). The Bride is not gathered up at this time. She has already been gathered up. She is already in Heaven, as are the elders (Rev. 4:4).

"And then (on the Feast of Trumpets) shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those that were already in Heaven with the elders) (Mark 13:27). Mt. 24:31 shows that this is gathering is "with a great sound of a trumpet."

I know you told me you "CHOOSE" to believe the Bible Codes about Sept. 11, and I hope they are right, but I have 2 matrixes in my possession that suggested that the Rapture would take place on May 31, 1998. I KNOW that you can get fooled this way. Go by the surface text of Scripture.

> Jesus came into this world as a SAVIOR, not as a JUDGE!

The "open door" is set before the Philadelphians. James 5:9 says, "Grudge not one against another, brethren (believers), lest ye be CONDEMNED: behold, the JUDGE (Christ, John 5:22) standeth before THE DOOR." In the Preview of the Rapture, Jesus is seen, "and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword" (Rev. 1:16). What do you think it is for? Who is going to get cut off?

> What does that do for the story of the thief on the cross with Jesus who
> went to be with Him that very day yet never lived for Him a day in his life?

That thief accepted Christ right then. He was therefore cleansed of all his "old sins" (II Peter 1:9) right then.

> But is that what Jesus wants us to do? Is that why He died for us?
> So, that we could fight and argue about who is going and who is not?

Discussion in agape love is healthy. Fighting is not. I Peter 1:22 says, "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently."

> I want to implore all of us to quit throwing Scripture out at each other
> like arrows in battle and put our theology aside and start thinking about
> things from our Father's point of view.

We can't lay the Scriptures aside, or we might go astray by using human reasoning, but we can deal with each other in agape love.

Incoming Email

your website is truly inspired by the holy spirit...it is wonderful you chose to reach the saved and unsaved throught the internet. I am a new saved as of March 21, 1999, and I thank Jesus for finding the word of God in the nick of time. Being a new Christian I have a problem understanding prophecy, and your web page has helped make things much clearer. Since the time is near all the information I can gather as fast as I can gather, Well, its like how shall I say a cram course for the lord. I could not access you page for a few days it was a lost feeling....I hope you keep the outstanding work up of salvation until the lord calls. Thank you. God bless you

My reply

Praise the Lord. I am so glad you accepted Christ. There is NOTHING more important. It was why we were put here on this Earth in the first place.

You will want to read the Bible, the manual God gave us so we can pass our test. Please don't start with Genesis and try to wade through it. That comes later. I tried that four times and quit either in the begats or Leviticus. John wrote to prove Christ is God. Start there and continue through the New Testament. You will get the information you need to know how to live, how to walk the Christian walk. Then with the last book, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, you will find out, if you haven't fully understood it by then, that Jesus really is the Almighty (Rev. 1:8). He is the first and the last, Lord of the Old Testament as the Pre-incarnate Christ, and Lord of the New Testament as the incarnate Christ. As II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

In Revelation, you will also get the first book of prophecy. From Rev. 4:1 on, it is still future, but not by much. We are living in the end of this age. When John is told to "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1, he is playing out the Rapture, when Christ comes to take the Bride of Christ to Heaven. This is the group we see in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

Revelation is an outline of end-time events. After you finish reading it, go back to Isaiah and read through to John. You will find a lot of prophecies to place in the schedule of end-time events. Knowing what is in Revelation first will help you know where those prophecies belong on the timeline at the end of this age.

Next read Psalms to Isaiah. By then, you will know enough about prophecy to recognize the little dramatic skits played out in Israel's recorded history to help us understand prophecy. Dry history then comes alive. History does repeat itself, by God's design. Finally, read Genesis to Psalms.

The Bible covers roughly 7000 years of time. There are only hints about what takes place before and after those 7000 years. Inset in that 7000-year bracket are three 2000-year ages and one final 1000-year Day of the Lord, when Christ will be King of kings and Lord of lords.

In the first 2000-year Age of the Gentiles, God dealt with all mankind. During the second 2000-year Age of the Jews, God dealt mainly with the Jews. In the third 2000-year Age of the Church, God is dealing mainly with the Church.

There are other divisions of time within this same framework. They are called dispensations. The time when Adam was in the Garden of Eden was the Dispensation of Innocence. That 40 years was outside the 7000 years--before it began to run. From when he was cast out of the Garden to Noah's Flood is the Dispensation of Conscience. The 7000 years began to run when Adam was cast out of the Garden of Eden and man began to be tested as mortal and knowing both good and evil. From the Flood to Abraham is the Dispensation of Human Government. From Abraham to the Exodus from Egypt is the Dispensation of Promise. From the Exodus to the Crucifixion is the Dispensation of Law. From the Crucifixion to the end of this age is the Dispensation of Grace. The final 1000 years is the day of the Lord and the Dispensation of Kingdom. Christ will return to Earth early in the Millennium, on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year.

The Lord gave man certain instructions in each dispensation. In each one, man, as a whole, fails to obey, but some individuals do obey and are saved. Instructions given in one dispensation may or may not be carried through to the next dispensation. Man is to be tried in seven different types of economies. That is why it is so important that we read the New Testament first. It applies directly to our Dispensation of Grace. We find out what is required of us by the Holy God that created us and is testing us.

Our reward for accepting Christ is eternal life and a home in Heaven, that we may live where Christ resides. He promised that it is a better place than Earth. If we can trust him for our salvation, we can trust him in this also. There are other rewards we can earn after we are saved. The main one is to be part of the first Rapture. See I Thess. 4:13-18. This is before the seven-year Tribulation that is coming upon the whole world to try those left on Earth (Rev. 3:10). This is the group seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9.

There is another Rapture for the Tribulation saints. It is just before God's Wrath falls on unbelievers on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. This is "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14).

What we want to do is found in Luke 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (of the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (Christ)." That Pre-Trib Rapture is the great prize we are working for, to be part of the Bride of Christ and be caught up to Heaven before the Tribulation begins. That 7-year Tribulation will be the worst 7 years since Adam was put on Earth. You don't want to be here then.

When you first accept Christ, every old sin you ever committed is wiped from the record. You are as a pure virgin, deserving to be one of the group called the Bride of Christ. You get a fresh start. When you sin afterward, you should use I John 1:9, confess that sin to God so he can cleanse you of all unrighteousness. This way, you immediately get back in fellowship with our Holy God and are worthy to be caught up in the Rapture. Those to be raptured are wearing white robes. Those left behind will have "washed their robes" (i.e., confessed their sins) by the time of the second Rapture (Rev. 7:14).

As you read your Bible and have questions, please feel free to email me. I'll do my best to answer. God loves you, I love you, and all good Christians love you. You are now born into God's family, part of the spiritual Body of Christ. We are all joined together into one body by the indwelling Holy Spirit, which is called both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God. We have fellowship one with another and with God.

One of God's attributes is love, agape love, the best of all kinds of love. When his Spirit is in us, we love other believers. God's love flows through us to others, both to unbelievers and to other believers. This Christian fellowship one with another is something that unbelievers do not understand. They don't have a clue. However, Christians understand. We are kin in God's family, and we know it and can feel it. We are bound together by God's Spirit.

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Updated 7-12-99