Pro and Con 357

Uploaded 7-16-99

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FWD: Re: sherry715b.htm.htm
***From Marilyn: My remarks are interspersed in your text.
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Sherry (15 July) (5doves site)

"2 Corinthinans 5:10"

"For we must all appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

In as few words as possible, using just a straight forward short, simple answer, could someone please answer the following questions? Pretend you are on a witness stand and must give the answer directly and concisely. Label each answer with the corresponding number for easy following. A few of us would like to know.

1) After the rapture of the worthy firstfruits believers, what is the next immediate thing to happen in heaven with regards to THEM?

Answer 1)***From Marilyn Agee: After going up at the FIRST TRUMP (I Thess. 4:16), they fall down before Jesus Christ, the Almighty (Rev. 1:8).
(A) Rev. 1:17: "And when I (John) saw him, I FELL at his feet as dead."
Rev. 4:10,11: "The four and twenty elders (representing all saints present) FALL DOWN before him...worship him...cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
(B) Rev. 5:9: "And they sung a NEW SONG."
Psa. 149:1,5: "PRAISE ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a NEW SONG, and his praise in the congregation of saints....Let the saints by joyful IN GLORY: let them sing aloud upon their beds."

2) When does the Judgement Seat of Christ take place? a)After the rapture,
b)during the trib, c)after the main harvest rapture, or d) after the trib?

Answer 2)***(A) On the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, The Day of God's Wrath.
(B) Order of Events: Coronation of Christ, Marriage of the Lamb, Rapture of Tribulation saints, Judgment Seat of Christ, Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Rev. 11:17,18: "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth."

3) Do the believers who have died before the rapture have the same kind of
separation (worthy vs. unworthy) as the living believers when the rapture occurs?
a) yes, b) no (Please give scripture references)

Answer 3)***(A) Not necessarily. I Thess. 4:14: "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." Whether they are worthy or unworthy will come to light at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
(B) We that are still living have a chance to earn the "prize" (I Cor. 9:24-27; Phil. 3:14) of going up in the Rapture instead of being a "castaway" and having to go through the worst seven years since Adam was put on Earth. To win the prize, we have to run the race. We can choose to scoff and think we are ok when we are not like the Laodiceans, or we can repent and be Philadelphians, the only group before whom the "open door" of Rev. 3:8 is set. The Laodiceans are told to repent. The Philadelphians are not told to repent, because they already have repented.

4) If number 3 is affirmative, when do they get resurrected? a) sometime during
the trib, b) after the trib, c) before the 1,000 yrs., d) after the 1,000 yrs
5) If the number 3 is affirmative, why did Paul, when he was comforting the
Thessalonians, let them believe they would see all their loved ones again
immediately at the rapture, in the clouds, on the way up?

6) If number 3 is affirmative, why didn't Paul tell them the truth, that even if they were accounted worthy to go up, quite possibly their mother, father, sister, brother, husband, wife or children could be found unworthy and wouldn't be meeting them in the air? To be "fair", this is the same as #6, so you can combine answers.

7) If unworthy Christians are left behind and get killed in the tribulation, will they be considered tribulation saints or church saints?

Answer 7)***Tribulation saints. I think those that are "accounted worthy" (Lu. 21:36) are the Bride of Christ, and those that are not worthy at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture are the remnant of the Body of Christ. Just as there is a remnant of the church going into the Tribulation, there is a remnant of Israel going into the Millennium. Some believe in time to be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Some are saved in a day on the day of the Rapture, but after it takes place. The whole remnant of the nation will be saved that day and go on into the Millennium (Isa. 66:8).

8) When a left behind church saint gets martyred in the tribulation, does his soul
go under the altar before the throne of God? a) yes, b) no

Answer 8)***Yes, and all martyrs are given white robes (Rev. 6:11). In Rev. 7:14, we find that those that go up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture are wearing white robes too. They "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They could have repented before the first Rapture and not had it so hard. They have repented by the second Rapture anyway. They just have to learn the hard way, but they do learn.

9) If the answer to #8 is negative, where does he go?

10) When do the left behind church saints and the tribulation saints get glorified bodies?

Answer 10)***(A) At the time of the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14), between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8).
(B) At the LAST TRUMP, the whole Body of Christ will put on immortality. I Cor. 15:51-53: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

11) Will both the left behind church saints and the trib saints stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ?

Answer 11)***(A) Yes. Rev. 11:17,18 says, "judge, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT."
(B) I Cor. 15:58: "Therefore, my beloved brethren (believers), be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always ABOUNDING IN THE WORK OF THE LORD, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord." Salvation is free. Rewards are earned.
Agape, Marilyn

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...SEE THE VOICE that was SPEAKING with me...
How can one see a voice speaking to him? The church is the visible aspect of the spiritual that hears the things of God and manifests them to the world. When John turned to SEE the voice, he did not SEE Christ in heaven right after the rapture with the church standing around Him, but what he SAW was the church on earth with Christ walking in the midst. The church is Godıs tabernacle on earth. Christ is in itıs center dressed as the High Priest, not offering sacrifices, but ministering to the lamp of God. The spiritual voice (heavenly) can be seen in the world through the members of the church....

My reply

I disagree. Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10).

This passage in Revelation 1 is the Preview of the Rapture that actually takes place in Rev. 4:1. If someone back of you spoke to you, you would hear their voice and turn around to see who spoke. John turned around and saw Christ in Heaven with the churches all around him. The star performers were still in Christ's right hand. They had just been caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Christ was the director of this miracle play. He also wrote the script. He cast himself and John as actors and some angels as supporting cast. Like our movie directors today, he ran a quick Preview of Coming Events, before starting at the beginning.

In the Preview, John (whom Jesus loved) was on Patmos (which means mortal). He was on Earth in his mortal body when suddenly he became in the Spirit as he was caught up to Heaven. The voice he heard was "AS OF A TRUMPET" (1:10). That is the voice of Christ. Look at 4:1,2. "I looked, and, behold, a door was opened IN HEAVEN: and the FIRST VOICE (the same one as in the preview in Rev. 1:10) which I heard was AS IT WERE OF A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME; which said, COME UP HITHER...And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set IN HEAVEN." In 5:9, we find that John was not alone in the Rapture. He is one of the elders, but there are also in Heaven people "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

What is actually happening in Rev. 4:1 was previewed in Rev. 1. In the messages to the seven churches, Christ is depicted as he appeared in the Preview of the Rapture. His messages to the churches is when the Rapture is "at hand." He goes back, grabs some of the group's history so we can understand what the characteristics of that group are like. Then he stretches it up to the present, when the Rapture is "at hand." He tells Ephesus, "These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks....Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place except thou repent" (2:1,5).

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I am not slamming your beliefs. I only have one question. Does it not say in the Bible that 'NO person will know the day or the hour?' It does also say that we should know the signs of the times and I do agree with you, I think I will live to see it.

My reply

No. It does not say that. What it does say is this: "But of that day and hour knoweth (present tense) no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." That was a true statement on that day. It has nothing to do with later. Rev. 3:3 warns, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." We have to stay alert and watch. What can we know if we do watch?

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I haven't written for awhile. Here is an e-mail I received from a Messianic Jewish forum. I have commented a few places within the text. I'm sure you will see even more. Enjoy. Pastor ---
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Sefirah and Shavu'ot: From the Guide to Jewish Religious Practice by Isaac Klein

...Shavu'ot, occurring on the sixth and seventh of Sivan, is the second of the Three Pilgrimage Festivals. Like the other Pilgrimage Festivals, it commemorates an important event in the history of the Jewish people, it has an agricultural reference, marking a stage in the harvest, and it imparts an essential religious truth.

The agricultural reference is the most apparent since Shavu'ot marks the end of the counting of the 'Omer. The agricultural significance of Shavu'ot is also indicated by the first two references to the festival in the Torah: "And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even the first fruits of the wheat harvest" (Exod. 34:22); also, "And the feast of harvest, the first fruits of thy labors, which thou sowest in the field" (Exod. 23:16).

**The wheat harvest is significant because Jesus referred to Himself as a kernel of wheat. We are the harvest of God's planting Jesus into the earth. He is the Son of God; we are the children of God.

Thus two names are given to this festival: Hag Haqatsir (harvest festival), because of its agricultural aspect, and Hag Hashavu'ot, which does not indicate any characteristic of the festival except the date, i.e., that it comes after the counting of seven weeks (Deut. 16:10-12).

In the Talmud the name 'Atseret is also given to the festival (M. R.H. 1:2; B. Pes. 68b). Our sages regarded Shavu'ot as the conclusion of the festival of Pesah, and therefore called it 'Atseret, just as the conclusion of the Sukkot festival is called Shemini 'Atseret (Shir Hashirim Rabbah 7:2)

According to rabbinic interpretation of the Bible (B. Shab. 86b-88a), the Ten Commandments were given on the sixth day of Sivan. Shavu'ot thus is zman matan toratenu, commemorating this event and emphasizing the Torah's sanctity.

**First God gave the Law, then His Son to save those condemned by that Law....

Special Observances for Shavu'ot

It is customary to start the evening services of the first night later than usual. This is to satisfy the implication of the verse sheva shabatot tmiymot (Lev. 23:15, i.e., we count seven complete weeks; therefore we wait to make sure that the forty-ninth day has been completed O.H. 494 in M.A. and M.D. ).

It was an ancient custom for Jews to remain awake for the entire first night of Shavu'ot to study Torah. The Zohar ascribes this custom to particularly pious Jews (Emor 98a). In Eastern Europe it was widely observed, and a special text for the occasion, known as tikun leil shavuot, developed which contained the first and last verses of each Sidrah, the first and last passages of each tractate of the Mishnah, and excerpts from the Zohar.

**It was an ancient custom for Jews to remain awake for the entire first night! Watch and pray?

A quaint reason is given for the practice of staying awake on the first night of Shavu'ot. Legend tells that the children of Israel slept so soundly the night before the Torah was given that they had to be awakened with thunder and lightening. We, on the contrary, are up all night and need not be awakened (O.H. 494 in M.A. and Shit Hashirim Rabbah).

The more obvious reason is that we review the Torah to celebrate the anniversary of its giving....

The Book of Ruth

The Book of Ruth is read on the second day of Shavu'ot. The custom is mentioned in Masekhet Soferim (14:16), and the fact that the first chapter of Midrash Ruth deals with the giving of the Torah is evidence that this custom was already well established in the period when this Midrash was compiled (Dunsky, Midrash Ruth, p. 3).

...And why the Book of Ruth? Because in the Talmud (B. B.B. 14b) Ruth is counted as the first book in the Ketuvim (Singer, Ziv Haminhagim, p. 112).

Since the Book of Ruth ends with the genealogy of David, whose forebear Ruth was, it has been suggested that it is read on Shavu'ot because there is a legend that David died on Shavu'ot (P. Hag. 2:3, P. Bet. 2:4, Ruth Rabbah 3:2)....

It is also customary on Shavu'ot to decorate the synagogue with flowers and foliage, and in some places the floors of the synagogue were strewn with fresh grass as a reminder of the agricultural character of the festival (O.H. 494:3 in Rama).

In some places the synagogues were adorned with branches and large plants as a reminder that according to the Mishnah (R.H. 1:2), the world is judged regarding the fruits of the trees on Shavu'ot. On Shavu'ot we thus pray for God to bless the fruit of the trees (B. R.H. 16a). Today, when flowers decorate the pulpit at all times, we simply add to the decorations and vary them.

In Israel many of the old customs are being revived, especially those having to do with the agricultural aspects of Shavu'ot. The bringing of bikkurim (first fruits) to the Temple in Jerusalem, as described in the Mishnah, was a gala affair (M. Bik. 3:1-8). It was discontinued after the destruction of the Temple, but has been revived in the villages and towns of Israel, where the children bring the first fruits of their fields with special festivities (Wahrman, Hagei Yisra'el Umo'adaw, p. 1186)....

copyright 1979,1992 The Jewish Theological Seminary of America.
...Send this to a friend. Please feel free to share this message with anyone else who may be interested in it or any other material on http://learn.jtsa.edu.

My reply

Thanks. I found it very interesting. Agape

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Jewish tradition indicates the Natzal will occur on Rosh Hashanah

(The Feast of Trumpets) this is when the last trumpet will be blown. The astronomical sign in Revelation 12:1 and 12:3 will occur on September 11th 1999 which may be the beginning of the seven years of Tribulation.The Rapture can be seen in Revelation 12:5. Jesus was born on The Feast of Tabernacles September 29th 1 B.C. The Jubilee begins on the beginning of the fiftieth year. Focus on the Jewish year 5760. Get the book The Seven Festivals Of The Messiah by Edward Chumney and read chapter 7. Maranatha

My reply

There are two Raptures, one Pre-Trib, I think on Pentecost, before the breaking of the first seal. The other is Pre-Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets (Mal. 2:3; Joel 2:1-3), but between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals and before the first of the seven trumpet judgments.

The two silver assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4 are the types of the two trumps of God for the two Raptures. Both Raptures will take place before any of the seven trumpets sounded by angels are heard. Otherwise, the Tribulation saints would have to go through the Wrath of God. That is meant for unbelievers only. However, all Israel will be born in a day that day. Those who will accept Christ as their Messiah too late to go in the second Rapture will stay on Earth during the outpouring of God's Wrath. They will be the ones to bury the dead for seven months (Ezek. 39:12) to cleanse the land for the Lord's return in glory.

> September 11th 1999 which may be the beginning of the seven years of Tribulation.

I think the Feast of Weeks in 2001 will be the beginning of that Seventieth Week of Daniel.

> The Rapture can be seen in Revelation 12:5

I think that is just for Moses and Elijah. Those of the first Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. Those of the second Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. The setting of Rev. 12 is Mid-Tribulation.

> Jesus was born on The Feast of Tabernacles
> September 29th 1 B.C.

I think he was born on Tishri 1 in BC 5. De. 11:14 says, "I will give you the rain of your land (Israel) in HIS DUE SEASON." Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning: and he shall come unto us AS THE RAIN, AND THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH." Joel 2:23 says, "he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month" (the New Moon, i.e., Tishri 1 and Nisan 1).

Scripture tells us the month and day of the month of the second coming. The date is set by Eze. 29:17: "in the first month, in the first day of the month." This is Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Eze. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD"

Herod's temple was begun in BC 20/19. It was 46 years in building in 27 AD, the first Passover of Jesus' ministry. John the Baptist baptized Jesus before that around Tishri 1, his 30th birthday, the age when a priest could enter the ministry. Tiberius began to rule as Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD. He became Sole-Rex in 14 AD. The 15th year of Tiberius' rule over Judea was 26 AD, when Jesus was baptized. The Crucifixion and Resurrection was in 30 AD.

> The Jubilee begins on the beginning of the fiftieth year.

On Nisan 1, right? It is announced on the Day of Atonement in the 49th year and starts as the Sacred year begins the following Nisan.

The 72nd Jubilee cycle since the Exodus in the Jewish 2231 (2513 AH, 1530 BC) would have placed the beginning of the Jubilee on Nisan 1, 5759 (Mar. 18, 1999).

> Focus on the Jewish year 5760.

I am. I think the Rapture will be on the Sabbath, Sivan 7, 5760 (June 10, 2000). That will be the 7th day of the week, the 7th day of the month, in the 7th year of the 7 good years that started with the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993.

> Get the book The Seven Festivals Of The Messiah by Edward Chumney and read chapter 7.

Thanks, but I have already read it.

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Check this fascinating posting on the 5 Doves:
http://www.fivedoves.com/bullock/supplement.htm

Seems to be a well thought out argument, although according to him we have already started into the Trib, with Mid-trib being May 2001 and the Second Coming in May 2004. I don't see how it can be as there is no third Temple yet.

What do you think?

My reply

Rev. 11:1 shows that there is at least enough temple to measure as the two witnesses begin their 1260-day ministries at the first of the Tribulation.

I don't agree with Randy. He has the Second Advent on May 14, 2004 (23 Iyar, 5764). I think Ezek. 29:17,21; De. 11:14; Joel 2:23 and Hos. 6:3 show us that Christ will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1, the beginning of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year.

One thing I agree with Randy on is that Sir Robert Anderson was wrong.

Note: J.K. Fotheringham said that Sir Robert Anderson's triumphal entry date is "absolutely impossible." I agree.

Incoming Email

Hey Marilyn, We don't agree on everything but I am sure glad that we are on the same team. I use a slightly different approach than most people do. I use the scriptures first (KJV New Scofield) then use Jewish Tradition and match it up with astronomical events and chronological time frames. Its a wonderful feeling when the pieces start to fit. 5760 should be an exciting year. May God Bless You for Seeking His Word

My reply

Me too--same team. Your approach sounds right to me. Can't beat Scripture first. Once you have that background, you can better judge other things.

To know we are probably on the bell lap is exciting to me. Just looking at world events should tell us that the time is short, no matter how we figure it.

His reply

Both Hanukkah and The Feast of Tabernacles are both known as The Festival of Lights. The concecption was sometime between December 21st and the 25th (Kislev 25th) and the birth was between September 29th and October 1st (Tishri 15th). Converting the dates is difficult because the Jewish Calendar is based on a 354 day lunar calendar year and is constantly changing plus calculating back 2000 years.The wise men were called Magoi, Magos in Greek and Ravmag in Hebrew.The Hebrew word rav means rabbi. Rabbis also called sages are known in Hebrew as chakamim, which means wise men. They knew Jewish law and judgement. They were experts in astronomy and studied in groups of seven.

They were advisers to the King of Babylonia then Persia while in captivity. When you get a chance go back and study Esther 1:2 and 1:13 and Ezra 7:13 and 7:14. By the way Esther means star. Do you see the connection? Also have you ever wondered why there were 400 pomegranates carved on the temple. Pomegranate means resurrection in Hebrew. Also on the hem of the high Levite Priests garment there were pomegranates and golden bells that alternated all the way around the hem. The bells announced the priests presence when he entered the Holy of Holies. Guess what, bell in hebrew means to strike or to beat. The whole theme was on the hem,the Messiah would be struck and beaten then he would rise up. A pomegranate has an unusual virtue, it can stop the flow of blood.

My reply

Thanks for the interesting information. How did you know that I have wondered about the pomegranates (didn't know they could stop the flow of blood, either) and the magi?

Esther means star, hidden or secret. It is an important book, worth frequent reading. What do you think is the hidden secret in Esther?

I think Jesus was born on Tishri 1. He came as the former rain. The latter rain is Nisan 1 (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). If the latter rain is on the first day of the first month of the sacred calendar, why wouldn't the former rain be the first day of the first month of the civil calendar. Joel 2:23 says, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." When a day number is not given, the first of the month is to be assumed. The word for month is the word for new moon, which is the first of the month.

I also think he will be crowned with his golden crown on his birthday. The Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ will be that day also.

Do you know how they determined that the ten commandments were given on Sivan 6? I am wondering, why not Sivan 7? Agape

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