Pro and Con 360

Uploaded 7-21-99

Incoming Email

Next Pentecost is June 10, yes? Isn't that the anniversary of the end of the 6-day war? That would be so appropriate, also! In His Love

My reply

Yes. Sivan 7, 5760 is Saturday, June 10. Thank you! That hadn't hit me yet about the Six-Day War. Agape

Incoming Email

The information concerning the dove and the possible connection with the Rapture was fascinating. It's awesome how God reveals things to you. Of course guess that's what makes the Bible a living book - there is always something new to learn in it as we are ready to accept.

One thing about the dove that has always puzzled me was when it was sent out and the earth was covered with water, how in just seven days after that were there trees which had grown up and sprouted leaves? And if the dove returned with an olive leaf in just fourteen days, it's even more of a mystery as I thought olive trees grew slowly. I suppose the seven and fourteen days were literal days like ours - but I'm not sure. Of course I know that God is in control and can do whatever He wants, so if He desired trees to rapidly grow out of the water, and then the mud and muck and get it all done in a hurry - He could do it.

I love the scriptures you include with your emails. I do believe them and am continuing to watch and wait and totally agree with the passage that says "...ye have need of patience,...." yep, that's me. This world is so full of wickedness and deceit that I am anxiously awaiting the time that I can go and be with the Lord. When I have spoken of that to others, they think I'm taking about suicide, which of course, I'm not. I believe that to be a great sin and although I have my times of depression and despair, I don't believe that is an option for a believer. I believe that would be attempting to fulfill my desires without regard to God's will. That definitely is not acceptable. Isn't that what Adam and Eve originally did? They wanted to be equal with God and know what He did. Such a mess that has caused but I have no intention of repeating that sin and rebellion by my own choice. Of course when I attempt to explain the Rapture, many look at me as though I've lost my mind. Such is life for now. One day soon, they will understand and if they haven't accepted Christ, will be among those weeping and gnashing their teeth with regret. So sad.

...Thank you again for your response, for your wonderful insights to the scriptures and for your prayers. You and Ed are definitely in my prayers.

Incoming Email

Re: assumptions
If Yahshua was crucified after 69 weeks (of Daniel's 70 week prophecy), then which week of the prophecy did He die in? Do you think the prophecy had anything to do with Him?

Was He not the "most holy" spoken of, that was to be "anointed" in verse 24 of Dan 9?

If he was what was to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, (through forgiveness), if He was to be "cut off" AFTER threescore and two weeks, but not for Himself, if He was what this prophecy was concerning (and He obviously was),then in which week of the 70 did He die?

Pre-tribbers all concede that He did not die within any of the first 69 weeks. (AFTER THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS) Then which?  Which, if not the seventieth???  Look at verse 27, but pray first, and loose all your pre-concieved ideas and assumptions about treaties or signitures, which are not spoken of anyway, and THINK.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK, and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....

Now where has the assumption come from that HE in this scripture has anything to do with an end-time anti-christ??  (A Jesuit priest in the 16th cent.)  Yashua died in the midst of the seventieth week, and in so doing caused the sacrifices to cease. (Remember the veil of the temple, what God caused to happen to it when Christ died, and said, "It is FINISHED"?

IT is finished!!  God will never again accept any animal sacrifices; He will not build again that which He destroyed and fulfilled by His one, complete and final sacrifice on the cross, and for anyone to try to offer anything but spiritual sacrifices as the apostles spoke of in the new test. would only insult the blood of Christ, and count it insufficient. It would be blasphemous.

Jesus spoke to the pharasees in Math 23, and told them thier city was left to them desolate, for thier continual abominations of killing the prophets and wise men sent to her. Then He told His disciples that not one stone of the temple would be left standing.

...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even unto the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

God will pour out His wrath upon those who pierced Him, and they shall wail because of Him.  Even so, amen.

If Israel after the flesh (Hagar) ever builds another temple, it won't glorify God, because they persecute Christians even now.  Even if they didn't hate Christ, but tolerated Christians, thier temple would still be insignificant; God will not bless anyone but those who accept the Messiah. Only those will be counted as the remnant, that is , Abraham's seed.  No salvation in any other name is offered.  No other religion  will be tolerated or acceptable, any more than Cain's foolish sacrifice.  Had it had been so that Judaism could gain salvation, Paul would have kept his high position, and not needed to preach Christ, and suffer greatly for it.

You can tell the Jew the truth, or you can give him a lying, false hope, and receive the judgement of the false prophets you read about in Ezekiel 13 and Jeremiah 23.  The Jews may very well build up a wall, and others just might daub it with untempered mortar, but the overflowing scourge will break down the foolish building, and sweep away the refuge of lies, and then it will be asked of them that built and promoted it, "Where is your wall?"

The false interpretation of Dan 9:27 by most pre-millenialists is just that kind of wall. It is a false hope for the jew, no better than the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness. It pretends to also offer the hope of a second chance to those who miss a rapture (that will not come until the LAST DAY), as if they have seven more years to repent.

What an abomination!!!  It makes peoples' minds DESOLATE of the truth!!!...and shall be turned to FABLES.

  COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT A PARATAKER OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES...

IF ANY MAN OR ANGEL FROM HEAVEN  COME SPEAKING ANY OTHER GOSPEL, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

My reply

> which week of the prophecy did He die in?  Do you think the prophecy had
> anything to do with Him?
> Was He not the "most holy" spoken of, that was to be "anointed" in verse
> 24 of Dan 9?

He was crucified after the 69 weeks of years. The 70th week is still future. God's clock for Israel stopped when the Jews turned down their Messiah. (It also stopped during the 114 years of the servitudes.) In the interim, he is taking out the church. Israel still has the 70th week to run. It is their fifth cycle of discipline. Lev. 26:27,28 says, ".And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury: and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

The seven times equal seven years, as in Rev. 12:6,14.

> Do you think the prophecy had anything to do with Him? Was He not the
> "most holy" spoken of, that was to be "anointed" in verse 24 of Dan 9?

Yes. he is the "most Holy" that is to be anointed King of kings and Lord of lords in the 490th year of this prophecy.

> And he shall confirm the covenant with many for ONE WEEK, and in the midst
> of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease....
> Now where has the assumption come from that HE in this scripture has anything


> to do with an end-time anti-christ?? (A Jesuit priest in the 16th cent.) I never heard of this priest. I stick to Scripture. It is the only real truth we have.

There is the end-time Roman called "the beast" in Rev. 19:10. He is the first beast of Rev. 13. I think he will be the Tribulation Pope. Dan. 9:26f speaks of him, saying, "the people (Romans) of the prince (the Beast) that SHALL COME (still future today) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman world empire in 70 AD); and the end thereof (of the world empire) shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war (Armageddon) desolations are determined."

The flood is terribly literal. A mountain burning with fire, an asteroid (Rev. 8:8), will impact the Mediterranean Sea. Zech. 2:4,5 says, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites (who cuts, who tears away and exterminates)! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant." There will be an overflowing flood. Jer. 47:1,2 says, "THE word of the LORD...against the Philistines...Behold, waters rise up out of the north, and shall be an overflowing flood, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein."

Ezek. 38:19,20 says, "Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the FISHES of THE SEA, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake."

Continuing in Dan. 9:27: "And he (the Beast) shall confirm the covenant with many (the united nations) for one week (the 70th): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet who will pull off a coup and take over Mid-Trib) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This Satan-possessed Wicked One will place the abomination of desolation in the temple and sit there "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). And "for the overspreading of abominations he (the False Prophet) shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation (of the 70th week), and that determined (at the Judgment of the Nations) shall be poured upon the desolate (lit. desolator, i.e., Satan). Dominion shall be taken away from Satan. It belongs to Christ, whose right it is.

> Yashua died in the midst of the seventieth week, and in so doing caused the
> sacrifices to cease.

Cyrus gave the decree to rebuild the city and the temple (Isa. 44:28) in BC 454. The 483 years - 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD. There is no room for half of the week to have already taken place. The sacrificing in the temple did not cease at that time. The sacrificing went on until 70 AD.

> when Christ died, and said, "It is FINISHED"

What was finished was his sacrifice of himself to atone for our sins.

> God will pour out His wrath upon those who pierced Him, and they
> shall wail because of Him. Even so, amen.

This will take place on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Seventieth Week of Daniel.

> You can tell the Jew the truth, or you can give him a lying, false hope, and receive
> the judgement of the false prophets you read about in Ezekiel 13 and Jeremiah 23. The
> Jews may very well build up a wall, and others just might daub it with untempered
> mortar, but the overflowing scourge will break down the foolish building, and sweep
> away the refuge of lies, and then it will be asked of them that built and promoted it,
> "Where is your wall?"

I am not a prophet, and I assume that you are not either.

> The false interpretation of Dan 9:27 by most pre-millenialists

What are you, a post-millennialist? I am not just a pre-millennialist, I am a pre-tribulationist.

Isa. 57:1 says, "THE righteous perisheth (abad, evacuate), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME." The first Rapture is before the evil Tribulation comes.

> no better than the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness.

Sorry, but JW think Jesus was Michael the archangel. I believe that Jesus was/is/and is to be YHVH of hosts, "the Almighty" himself (Rev. 1:8).

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS REDEEMER THE LORD OF HOSTS: I am the first, and I am the last: and beside me there is no God."

In Rev. 1:8, the Lord Jesus Christ says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY."

Isa. 9:6 says, "his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." (II Cor. 5:19).

> It pretends to also offer the hope of a second chance to those who miss a rapture
> (that will not come until the LAST DAY), as if they have seven more years to repent.
> What an abomination!!!

You should look at a few scriptures before you come off with something like this. You don't want to fulfill II Peter 3:3,4: "there shall come in the last days scoffers...saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

There is a Rapture BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL is broken in Rev. 6. Read about the people in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. they sing, "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed (past tense) us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." This Pre-Trib Rapture is the FIRST TRUMP.

There is also a Rapture between the SIXTH AND SEVENTH SEALS. They are "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" in Heaven BEFORE THE SEVENTH SEAL is broken in Rev. 8. Rev. 7:14,15 says, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God."

This second Rapture is the last chance to be raptured. It comes at the "LAST TRUMP" (I Cor. 15:52). All who accept Christ after that will live on into the Millennium on Earth. Israel will be saved in a day, that day, the first day of the Millennium, the Day of God's Wrath.

> COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT A PARATAKER OF HER SINS,
> AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES

This "HER" is the world church seen in Rev. 18. Her plagues include being destroyed by the asteroid of Rev. 8:10 and 18:21.

> IF ANY MAN OR ANGEL FROM HEAVEN COME SPEAKING ANY OTHER GOSPEL, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is this. I Cor. 15:1-4 says, "MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you THE GOSPEL...how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." I believe this implicitly.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Tim. 2:15).

Incoming Email

Re: what's gone wrong?
I can't reach your web site at pe.net or any other of the mirror sites.
Do you need help?

My reply

I just tried and got xoom.com and pe.net, so don't know why you couldn't. On both, I could access Pro and Con 358 too.

My site is paid ahead, so that is not the problem.

We are ok, but dreading putting our house up for sale and having to move. We should list it right away, but it is not ready yet. Our son Dave and I have bad backs and Ed had open heart surgery. I am 70, and Ed is 75. We are not as able to keep working hard as we used to be. Got the final word today that we can't refinance because our guaranteed income, Social Security, is not enough. That means we have to sell. We have to get a new loan or sell before the deadline in October. That was in our original contract.

Incoming Email

I have just read your P&C 355 it has some really good information on Jewish feasts in it. The quality of the reference material in your P&C's has just amazed me recently. You have been so tired and unwell but your writings just get clearer and more concise as you go on. The Holy Spirit MUST be helping you.

Some of the things you said made me wonder though. I know you think rapture 2 is September 13th 2007 - where in the Bible does it say that?

I agree that if Christ gave his Holy Spirit on Pentecost then he would take him then also. It says in 2 Thess 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity does already work, only He(the Holy Spirit) who now letteth (Withholds) will let (continue to withhold), UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY (ie. Rapture 1 along with all the Christians he indwells at that time). That clearly applies to Rapture 1 but couldn't Rapture 2 also be on Pentecost? If there were two loaves to be thrown up as a wave offering at the feast of Pentecost wouldn't they represent Rapture 1 and 2. Isn't the Holy Spirit going to be removed again at the end of the Tribulation along with the 144,000 Jews and any indwelt believers on Pentecost 2007? The Tribulation Saints are after all the remnant of the Church even though the Jews will be a large part of the beleivers raptured. I'm probably wrong but I can't see how the first Loaf represents the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. The loaves go up - as in raptures. The Holy Spirit came down. I'd be grateful if you could clear this up for me. Hope you and Ed are both well. Much Love

My reply

> The Holy Spirit MUST be helping you.

Jesus said that without him we could do NOTHING. He truly MUST help me. He helps us all.

> I know you think rapture 2 is September 13th 2007 - where in the Bible does it say that?

It doesn't tell us that point blank. We have to search for clues and work the puzzle. Prophecy is here a little and there a little so the wicked will not understand (Dan. 12:10: Isa. 28:9-13).

What the Bible indicates is that the second Rapture is on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17), between (it is seen in Rev. 7:14) the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8). It is BEFORE the seven trumpets sound in Rev. 8, but on the same day. It is before noon (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23: Eze. 25:16), because the asteroid pieces (Rev. 8:8,10) impact at noon. It is on the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3; Mal. 2:3: Hos. 9:5-7). It is on a Feast of Trumpets that begins a Jewish leap year, because there are 7 months (Ezek. 39:12) instead of 6 between that Tishri 1 and the following Nisan 1, when Jesus returns (Ezek. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). Leap years are 5760 (1999/2000), 5763 (2002/03), 5765 (2004/05) and 5768 (2007/08).

The Feast of Trumpets is preceeded by a 2300-day Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). This includes both the time that the Jews sacrifice at the temple and the time that they cannot because the False Prophet desecrates the temple Mid-Trib. There is only one place that the 2300 days fit if the Seventieth Week of Daniel/Tribulation is to begin on the Feast of Weeks, which seems likely. The 2300 days would start on the Feast of Weeks in 2001 and end on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. The 2300 days do not fit anywhere else before the 40 years from the Sign of the End of the Age, the Six-Day War in 1967, end. I even counted days between those feasts in several periods beyond that for good measure, or in case a generation was a few more years than 40. I tried to cover all bases. I checked out the book with the Jewish calendar in it so many times, the whole card was covered with the number of my BIOLA library card, 043. I can't see anywhere else possible for Rapture II than Sept. 13, 2007 (Tishri 1, 5768).

This is not in the Bible, but it seems too good to be a coincidence. The Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. Sept. 13, 1993 plus 7 good years and 7 bad years is Sept. 13, 2007. The Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel three days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Tishri 1, 5754 + 14 years = Tishri 1, 5768, which is our Sept. 13, 2007. It could not be better arranged to be a sign of the end. This seems to place the seven good years as 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 and the seven bad years as 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, starting and ending on Tishri 1. This makes confirming the 7-year covenant (Dan. 9:27) in 2001 seem very likely.

> couldn't Rapture 2 also be on Pentecost? If there were two loaves to be thrown up as
> a wave offering at the feast of Pentecost wouldn't they represent Rapture 1 and 2.

First of all, we have to have those 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 for the shortened Tribulation. If they begin on the Feast of Weeks, they have to end on the Feast of Trumpets.

I don't see how the Pre-Wrath Rapture could be any other time than the Feast of Trumpets. Rev. 6:12-17 describes the time when there is a great earthquake, the sun, moon and stars are obscured by smoke from the incoming asteroids. Small rocks are already falling, men are hiding in the dens and rocks of the mountains and saying for the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Christ (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30). The last verse says, "for the great DAY OF HIS WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Between that and the sounding of the 7 trumpet judgments in Rev. 8, we find the Tribulation saints in Heaven (Rev. 7:14).

Micah was role playing as a Tribulation saint in Mic. 7:1-4 when he said, "WOE (comes later that same day) is me! for I am as (symbolic language) when they have gathered the summer fruits (Pentecost is in spring), as the grapegleanings (Tishri) of the vintage (of Elul and Tishri): there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit (at Pentecost). The good man is perished (abad, escaped) out of the earth (at the first Rapture): and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward (bribe); and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the DAY OF THY WATCHMEN (sound the alarm on the silver trumpets, Israel is being attacked by Gog's army) AND THY VISITATION COMETH (the Sign of the Son of Man is seen); NOW shall be their perplexity."

As verses 9 and 10 continue, Micah says, "I will bear the indignation of the LORD, BECAUSE I HAVE SINNED AGAINST HIM, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment (Judgment Seat of Christ is that day) for me: he will bring me forth (Rapture II) to the light (Christ in Heaven), and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is mine enemy (the harlot church) shall see it (Rapture II), and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the LORD thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: NOW shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets."

Rev. 18:20,21 shows us what happens "NOW." It says, "Rejoice over her, thou HEAVEN, and ye holy apostles and PROPHETS; for God hath avenged you on her. And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone (the 'aster,' asteroid, of Rev. 8:10) like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

> Isn't the Holy Spirit going to be removed again at the end of the Tribulation
> along with the 144,000 Jews and any indwelt believers on Pentecost 2007?

Yes, but unless we have other things that indicate Pentecost, it isn't likely to take place on Pentecost. The Tribulation saints are saved as out of a fiery furnace. It is as the days of Lot. Fire fell that same day (Lu. 17:29).

> I'm probably wrong but I can't see how the first Loaf represents the arrival of the Holy
> Spirit at Pentecost. The loaves go up - as in raptures. The Holy Spirit came down.

The wave loaves can't stand for the Holy Spirit at all. They are baked with leaven, which stands for evil. The baking stops the growth of leaven (yeast). That gives us a clue that we should not sin, and if we do, we should immediately confess it and sin no more. "Ephraim is a cake not turned," Hosea 7:8 declares. He still had leaven that had not been killed.

The Israelites were also to "offer with the bread SEVEN LAMBS WITHOUT BLEMISH." This can stand for the Spirit of Christ. Seven is God's number of perfection. Jesus is the Lamb of God. He is without blemish.

In Lev. 23:17, we are told that the two loaves "are the firstfruits unto the LORD." James 1:18 says "that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." Ex. 23:16,19 speaks of "the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field (world)...The FIRST of the firstfruits." The firstfruits are brought out of their "habitations" (Lev. 23:17).

The two loaves have been thought to represent Jews and Gentiles, which they may. The church is made up of both. However, the church was born on Earth in 30 AD. It will be born unto Heaven at the Rapture--two births--two loaves. Pentecost is a firstfruit harvest festival when they were to go up to Jerusalem. The apostles went up to Jerusalem. We will go up to New Jerusalem. This feast was not for any other harvest, only the FIRSTFRUIT HARVEST.

Ed and I are fine. We walked at the mall today.

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Updated 7-21-99