Pro and Con 365

Uploaded 7-28-99

Incoming Email

Re: time of the rapture: alan creech, tireman@seark.net, wrote:
I hope you don't mind if I say you are off in left field. Please remember that we all have our own opinion, so let me give you mine. You have an interesting theory of the time the 7 yr. tribulation period starts but as it says in mt. ch24 vs36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only...

i want you to know that i hope you are exactly right on the pre trib. theory but please be ready if that does not happen. I hope we are in agreement that the first three & one half years of the tribulation period is a time of peace and tranquility. The antichrist will come to power in this time. He will make peace with Isreal and the surrounding nations during this period. Near the end of this three & one half years he will break this treaty. He will stand up at this time and declare himself Christ and command everyone to bow down and worship him. This will begin the last half of the tribulation period. I hope you can agree with this since it comes from the bible.

Now on to the rapture. The seven seals, trumpets, and vials shall begin to happen in the second half of the tribulation period and like I said I hope you are right, but if you are wrong remember what I write you in this letter. The seals and the trumpets are a progressive thing, that is they will not all happen at once and happen quickly. The vials are for the wicked or the unsaved whatever you want to call them. With this happening, the seals and trumpets, over three & one half years then where does the rapture happen. The verse that I always rely on comes from 1cor.15 vs. 51 thru 58. I am sure you have heard this a thousand times before but we will make it 1001 times. In vs. 52 it says "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, AND WE SHALL BE CAHNGED. So if this is the rapture and you know as well as I do that this is what Paul was writing about. then where in the world do you come up with the rapture coming at the beginning of the tribulation period. We need to be teaching that we do not know the day or hour of our Lords return and we need to be ready for that time of the season. We need to preach of repentence of sin and bring the Lord Jesus Christ into these peoples heart before it is everlasting to late, Amen.

Please understant that I just don't want to mislead anyone and then be ridiculed because the time was wrong. The year 2000 may be the beginning of the end but let's not turn people away from Christ because the rapture doesn't come. Only God knows when that will be. May the Lord be with you always.

God bless you, Alan Creech, Grapevine Ark.

My reply

> You have an interesting theory of the time the 7 yr. tribulation period starts but as
> it says in mt. ch24 vs36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man

Where does it say that? Mt. 24:35,36 in the KJV says, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of THAT DAY and hour knoweth no man."

Concerning heaven and earth, Psa. 102:25,26 says, "Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment: as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed."

> the pre trib. theory but please be ready if that does not happen

I am watching and praying always, that I "may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36). The scriptures do not instruct me otherwise. They don't say that I should be ready for the Tribulation. What I have to be ready for is the Rapture.

> I hope we are in agreement that the first three & one half years of the tribulation
> period is a time of peace and tranquility.

Nope. When the first seal breaks, the Beast rides forth on a white horse as a prince of peace. However, when the second seal is broken--WAR (Rev. 6:4).

> He will stand up at this time and declare himself Christ and command everyone to bow
> down and worship him. This will begin the last half of the tribulation period. I hope
> you can agree with this since it comes from the bible.

Nope. As the last half of the Tribulation begins, Satan will be cast out of heaven. He will enter into the SECOND BEAST of Rev. 13, the False Prophet. He will immediately sit in the temple "shewing himself that he is God...Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thess. 2:4,9).

> The seven seals, trumpets, and vials shall begin to happen in the second half of the
> tribulation

The first seal is broken as the Tribulation BEGINS. The trumpet judgments are on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14). They are the initial disaster when the two main pieces of the asteroid impact Earth. The vials are the ultimate destruction after some time has gone on. For example, in Rev. 8:8,9 (second trumpet), "the third part of the sea (the Mediterranean) became blood; And the THIRD PART of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed." In Rev. 16:3, "the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and EVERY LIVING SOUL DIED IN THE SEA."

> With this happening, the seals and trumpets, over three & one half years then where
> does the rapture happen. The verse that I always rely on comes from 1cor.15 vs. 51 thru
> 58...."In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet
> shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, AND WE SHALL BE CAHNGED.

There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture is before the first seal (see Rev. 5:9 and Rev. 6). The Pre-Wrath Rapture is between the sixth and seventh seals (see Rev. 6:12, 7:14 and Rev. 8). The first Rapture is found in I Thess. 4:13-18. The second Rapture is found in I Cor. 15:51,52. These trumps are like the silver assembly trumpets in Numbers 10:2-4. They are for calling the assembly and the journeying of the camps. Both sound before the seven trumpet judgments hit.

> We need to be teaching that we do not know the day or hour of our Lords return

That flies in the face of Scripture. In Mark 13:23, Jesus says, "I have foretold you ALL things."

Lu. 8:17 says, "Nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest: neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad."

Lu. 12:2 says, "For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known."

Mt. 10:26 says, "Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known."

Mark 4:22,23 says, "For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."

Amos 3:7 says, "Surely, the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Dan. 12:10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

Prov. 2:3-5 says, "Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."

Rev. 3:3 says, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee."

You are encouraging me to not watch. However, I must follow what Jesus indicated. Jesus said to watch. If I do watch, he will not come on me as a thief, and I shall know what hour he will come upon me. Too bad that you will not know what hour he will come upon thee.

> Please understant that I just don't want to mislead anyone and then be ridiculed because
> the time was wrong. The year 2000 may be the beginning of the end but let's not turn people
> away from Christ because the rapture doesn't come. Only God knows when that will be.

I would rather be a fool for Christ than to not watch because I was afraid of being ridiculed. What a lame excuse. Where is your backbone? If people get ready, that is beneficial. If we are watching, our eyes are on Christ, not on the world. So we have to wait a bit longer than we thought, what is that to all of eternity? Time is short. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are earning rewards. Don't worry, the Rapture will come. Christ will come "at the day appointed" (Prov. 7:19).

In John 14:2-4, Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go YE KNOW, and the way ye know." I know where I am headed, and Jesus knows the time. I will continue to watch, as he commanded.

> May the Lord be with you always.

He said he would never leave me, and he will come for me at the Rapture.

In I Thess. 4:16-18, Paul said, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This is the first trump. At that time, the Bride of Christ will be "CAUGHT UP." The Greek word translated "CAUGHT UP" is "harpazo." It means to take away, carry off, catch up or remove by force. Other places it is used demonstrate its meaning beyond a shadow of doubt. It is talking of the Rapture.

In II Cor. 12:2-7, Paul was CAUGHT UP to heaven. He said, "I knew a man (Paul himself) in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP (harpazo) to the third heaven ([1] Mars, [2] Jupiter, [3] Saturn). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was CAUGHT UP (harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

In Rev. 12:5, "she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was CAUGHT UP (harpazo) unto God, and to his throne."

Harpazo also appears in Acts 8:39, where "the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more."

When we hear Jesus say, "COME UP HITHER" (Rev. 4:1), we will be CAUGHT UP, harpazo in Greek, rapiemir in Latin, Raptured in English. The Bride of Christ will be in the group seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the first seal is broken. In the middle of the Tribulation, the two witnesses will also hear "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

NOTE: That the "Come up hither" indicates an ascension is demonstrated in Rev. 11:12. Of the two witnesses, it says, "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. AND THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

I think the first Rapture will be seen. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the third heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

"Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong" (I Cor. 16:13). Agape

Incoming Email

Thomas A. Manz, tmanz@ecn.purdue.edu, wrote:
On your internet site, you discuss a few things regarding the timing of the rapture. Why do you feel that you are qualified to know when the rapture will occur? I don't see how you can come out and set a date, like 1998, and then turn around and set a new date, like 1999, and then keep doing this just putting it off another year.

Please stop by http://www.beforehand.com/Prophecy/ and check out some of the information there. I think it will help you to see that the rapture isn't going to happen in 1999, or 2000, or 2001, or 2002 ... In fact, there will be several years until the rapture takes place.

You are misleading people by telling them the rapture is so near, when in fact it isn't. Before the rapture will occur, there will be a lot of events in between like war, the Anti-Christ, the two witnesses, the two beasts, etc. There are a lot of things which are going to happen before the rapture occurs. And quite simply, they haven't occurred yet.

You can't set the time of the rapture by adding dates to Noah's flood and things like that...It just won't work.

I can see that you are very sincere in what you believe and I think that you are trying to do what you feel is right. That's why I am writing this to you. I think you have been mislead by your church or whoever to believe the rapture is so immenent, when in fact it isn't.

What is immenent is the beginning of war, the Tribulation Period, and construction on the Temple. Only after these things have been going on for several years will the rapture occur when Jesus returns to earth in the Second Coming.

Christians will be here for the tribulation period.

In Christian Love, Tom

My reply

> Why do you feel that you are qualified to know when the rapture will occur?

Since you are still in college, I feel that my many years of deep Bible study, since before 1960, give me an edge over your youth. I have read every word in at least 15 versions of the Bible. I spent seven years reading about an 18" stack of books every week from BIOLA's Seminary Collection.

> I don't see how you can come out and set a date, like 1998, and then turn around and set
> a new date, like 1999, and then keep doing this just putting it off another year.

You haven't done your homework. It's on my Web site.

> the rapture isn't going to happen in 1999, or 2000, or 2001, or 2002 ... In fact, there
> will be several years until the rapture takes place.

I think you will get fooled.

> You are misleading people by telling them the rapture is so near, when in fact it isn't.
> Before the rapture will occur, there will be a lot of events in between like war, the
> Anti-Christ, the two witnesses, the two beasts, etc. There are a lot of things which are
> going to happen before the rapture occurs. And quite simply, they haven't occurred yet.

I have better sense than to call statements a fact, when no Scripture is given to back up what you say. Unless it jibes with Scripture, it is NOT fact; it is conjecture. Webster's Dictionary says, "CONJECTURE implies forming an opinion or judgment upon evidence insufficient for definite knowledge."

> you are trying to do what you feel is right. That's why I am writing this to you. I
> think you have been mislead by your church or whoever to believe the rapture is so
> immenent, when in fact it isn't.

Part (a) is correct. I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It said to publish and conceal not.
Part (b) is untrue. I have done my own research, regardless of what my church teaches. I only believe what the Bible says.
Part (c) is not true. The word imminent (or your "immenent") is not in the Bible. The Rapture is not impending at just any old time. The Lord "hath determined the TIMES BEFORE APPOINTED" (Acts 17:26). He will come "AT THE DAY APPOINTED" (Prov. 7:19). He is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal. 4:2), and "the sun KNOWETH his going down" (Psa. 104:19).

There is a certain "DUE SEASON." Lu. 12:42-46 says, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat IN DUE SEASON. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing....But if that servant say in his heart, My lord DELAYETH his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he LOOKETH NOT FOR HIM, AND AT AN HOUR WHEN HE IS NOT AWARE, AND WILL CUT HIM IN SUNDER (lit., cut him off), AND WILL APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

Be careful. You say in effect that the Lord delayeth his coming. Being appointed a portion with the unbelievers means that the unwise servant will go through a portion of the Tribulation. He will be taken by surprise when the Lord comes. He will not be aware of the time. The wise servant, however, will not be appointed his portion with the unbelievers.

Jesus warned, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev. 3:3). I intend to watch so I will be able to "know what hour" he is coming upon the Church.

> What is immenent is the beginning of war, the Tribulation Period, and construction on
> the Temple. Only after these things have been going on for several years will the
> rapture occur when Jesus returns to earth in the Second Coming.

The Tribulation begins with the breaking of the first seal on the title deed of the Earth. The Church saints are in Heaven before that. After the "Come up hither" of Rev. 4:1, we see in Heaven a multitude "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They are in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The breaking of the first seal is not until Rev. 6.

You have not only made an error concerning when the Church saints appear in Heaven. More than that, you have even made an error concerning when the Tribulation saints appear in Heaven. They are the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:9,14). Even the Tribulation saints are in Heaven before the seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8. Christ does not return to Earth for seven months after the seventh seal is broken (Ezek. 39:12). Instead of a Rapture at the Second Advent, "the armies which were IN HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

How do you think they got to heaven? They got there in the two Raptures. At the second one, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those who were taken to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

> Christians will be here for the tribulation period.

That is true. The wise Philadelphian virgins will be caught up before the breaking of the first seal kicks off the Tribulation. The foolish Laodicean virgins will be caught up before God's Wrath falls on Earth when the seventh seal is broken. The latter group is cut off the first time and appointed their portion with the unbelievers during the Tribulation. Jesus will "spue" (lit., vomit) them out of his mouth at the first Rapture (Rev. 3:16).

On your Web site, you say, "According to another vision, a strong military leader will come to power about the time I finish college. This will lead to a worldwide nuclear war. After the war starts, God's two witnesses will be preaching in Jerusalem and the one-world government will begin. Other dreams show how the mark of the beast will be implanted under the skin....Today we are living between the fifth and sixth seals."

You should go by what Scripture says, not by dreams and visions. Today, the first seal has not yet been broken. It will be broken when the Beast and False Prophet confirm a seven-year final status peace treaty (Dan. 9:27). Since it will be confirmed "with many," it will probably be signed by other united nations.

BTW, I notice that you go to Purdue. I used to live near Kokomo. We shopped in Kokomo. I was born in Terre Haute. I have lived in Bloomington too. I lived in Indiana until Dec. in my freshman year in High School. Agape

Incoming Email

Israel in the News: July 12-25, 1999 (Hebraic Heritage Newsgroup: From: Eddie Chumney

NO TRACE OF "FLOW OF WATER" ON TEMPLE MOUNT: Int'l Christian Embassy Jerusalem 7/23/99

Staying on the Temple Mount, reports have been circulating in recent weeks of a miraculous "flow of water" in or near the Dome of the Rock Mosque that was rumored to be the stream described in chapter 47 of the Book of Ezekiel. Various Christian ministries in Jerusalem have received numerous inquiries as to the accuracy of these accounts, and - after several independent investigations - the consensus view is that no such phenomena exists at this time.

There may be a simple explanation for these assertions of an unusual "flow of water." The Temple Mount is a huge, raised platform measuring approximately 920 by 1590 feet, rebuilt by Herod the Great to hold his expanded Second Temple. It contains more than a dozen large underground water cisterns, some dating back to the time of King Solomon's First Temple and mentioned in ancient Jewish sources on temple worship....Currently, the Muslim authorities have designed a drainage system that collects rainwater run-off into these cisterns.

With Israel under drought conditions this summer, a pump has been lowered into one or more cisterns located about 70 feet north of the Dome of the Rock, with hoses then carrying the water to outlying garden areas for watering plants....

Several sources that have inspected the Temple Mount as thoroughly as possible in recent weeks -- for the express purpose of confirming the reports of a new "water flow" -- all agree that there is nothing unusual in sight. These inspections included the interiors of both the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosques....

U.S., ISRAEL TO UPGRADE STRATEGIC TIES
By Aluf Benn and Nitzan Horowitz, Ha'aretz New York 7/18/99

...During their prolonged discussions at Camp David President Clinton and Premier Barak agreed to set a 15-month deadline ending in October 2000, by which time an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement would have been finalized, and breakthroughs leading to a settlement between Israel, Syria and Lebanon would have been achieved.

A senior source close to Barak said the timetable reflected three factors, all of them potential sandtraps that had to be taken into account. These include Barak's undertaking to withdraw from Lebanon within a year, Clinton's promise to Arafat that the final settlement negotiations would take approximately one year, and the U.S. 2000 presidential election, which will kickoff with the first set of primaries in March, after which Clinton's ability to be intensively involved in the process will be curtailed. All three dates converge more or less at the end of next year, hence the 15- month deadline....

Incoming Email

I very much enjoyed visiting your website!

I agree that we are on the threshold of the great tribulation. However, I also believe that the majority of the saints will be going through the tribulation, like everyone else. However, they will have divine protection during that time.

I believe your emphasis on pre-trib rapture is the biggest flaw in your end-times scenarios. I think that if you removed this issue that you would be much closer to understanding what is about to happen.

You need to seriously consider if the pre-trib rapture is a correct understanding of the rapture. In His Service

My reply

I'm already sure. I was sure of that way back in the 1960s. Read Lu. 21:36 and Rev. 3:10. Look at the saints in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. Agape

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Updated 7-28-99