Pro and Con 37

Incoming Email (11-19-97)

Dear Marilyn, You may have seen this letter, posted at the 5 Doves site (one "dove" is Jim Bramlett)
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~spirit5/letters/clay1117.htm
Good press there.

What I found when I visited the above site made my day

From: Clay Cantrell (17 Nov)

*Hebrews 4:7 - 9 He again FIXES (predetermines, sets with boundaries) a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "Today if you hear His Voice, Do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. There therefore remains a Sabbath rest for the people of god.

The Sabbath day rest is a day that is predetermined, and fixed - marked off with bounds. It is a day LOCKED into God's RIGID time table. (SOON!)

May I suggest for your blessing the following 2 books to read? These are the best books on Bible Prophecy and end-time topics i have EVER READ. BEST SCHOLARSHIP, BEST RESEARCH, BEST BIBLE SUPPORT - FASCINATING! GLORIOUS!

M.J. Agee (Marilyn J. Agee)
End of the Age (Secrets of Secrets Revealed)
Heaven Found: a Butter and Honey Star
published by Avon Books in paperback

She also has an excellent web site that Jim Bramlett has forwarded mail from on your page. She is a 68 year old grandmother from Indiana who lives in CA and took almost 30 years to write "End of the Age". It is AWESOME!

THANK YOU CLAY

Incoming Email, Re: the Rapture cult (11-19-97)

> I have viewed you website....
> 
> It is completely amazing how someone who is supposed to be a "believer"
> can go off on a tangent and come up with so many twisted fables
> about the Rapture...
> 
> The Pre-Trib Rapture is a Lie from the pit of hell... and you
> will soon see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the
> prophet Daniel...
> 
> The "pre-wrath" gathering of the saints is real....
> 
> Matthew 24... says AFTER the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> THEN the gathering from the fours winds will occur!
> 
> The Day of Christ is EXACTLY the SAME Day as the Day of the Lord!
> 
> Believers will go through the Tribulation or they will be killed....
> there is no other option.... Sorry!
> 
> Tribulation means testing....  Wrath means God's Anger!
> 
> In John 17:15 and 17:20...
> 
> Yahshua prays that we (apostles and ALL believers) are NOT taken out but that
> we are delivered through the tribulation....
> 
> I pray that the Lord will lead you out of this GREAT deception!

My reply

> The "pre-wrath" gathering of the saints is real....

Of course it is. There are two Raptures. The Pre-Wrath Rapture comes between the sixth and seventh seals.

> Matthew 24... says AFTER the TRIBULATION of THOSE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Matthew 24:15 speaks of the abomination of desolation placed in the Holy Place. That takes place in the middle of the Tribulation. Mt. 24:29 is talking about "after the tribulation of those days."

> THEN the gathering from the fours winds will occur!

This takes place on Tishri 1, 5768 (our September 13, 2007). Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." The Tribulation saints are gathered from Earth, and the Church saints are gathered from Heaven. They were taken there in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

> Believers will go through the Tribulation or they will be killed....
> there is no other option.... Sorry!

Then what is our "blessed hope"? Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

> Yahshua prays that we (apostles and ALL believers) are NOT taken out but that
> we are delivered through the tribulation....

Jesus was talking to the apostles ("none of them is lost, but the son of perdition," John 17:12). This was before Pentecost.

> I pray that the Lord will lead you out of this GREAT deception!

Ditto!

Come on. Give me some real scriptures that back up your position.

His reply

> >>Of course it is. There are two Raptures. The Pre-Wrath Rapture comes
> >>between the sixth and seventh seals.
> 
> Where is the scripture that says... there are two Raptures....
> 
> I see a gathering of of the saints at the Last trumpet... I don't see the
> word Rapture and I don't see two... and I think that something this
> important would have been clearly defined in the scriptures...
> 
> How many "comings" do we have?  I guess...1 + 2 = 3 or is it 4?
> Maybe the 2 raptures don't count!
> 
> I read 2nd Coming in my Bible!
> 
> >>Matthew 24:15 speaks of the abomination of desolation placed in the Holy
> >>Place. That takes place in the middle of the Tribulation. Mt. 24:29 is
> >>talking about "after the tribulation of those days."
> 
> This scripture is a command.... when we see the abomination of desolation
> we are to STAND in the holy place... the holy place is not the temple...
> the holy place is the holy place that we have in prayer in the spirit.
> 
> The Great Tribulation is a 42 month period in which the Anti-Christ is
> given reign over the earth.  There is tribulation that is seven years
> long... but the old testament prophets talk about the first 3 and 1/2
> years being peace and tranquility compared to the second half...
> The second half is the Great Tribulation.
> 
> > THEN the gathering from the fours winds will occur!
> 
> >>This takes place on Tishri 1, 5768 (our September 13, 2007). Mark 13:27
> >>says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his
> >>elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the
> >>uttermost part of heaven." The Tribulation saints are gathered from
> >>Earth, and the Church saints are gathered from Heaven. They were taken
> >>there in the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> 
> This seems to go AGAINST the scripture that I know...
> like... No one knows the day or hour... not even the Son
> We might the know the season... maybe even the month... but NOT the DAY 
> or HOUR. God said this in His word to warn us about Date Setters!
> 
> I believe that God does things on a pattern of the days of the past...
> 
> > Believers will go through the Tribulation or they will be killed....
> > there is no other option.... Sorry!
> 
> >>Then what is our "blessed hope"? Titus 2:13 says, "Looking for that
> >>blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our
> >>Saviour Jesus Christ."
> 
> The Blessed hope is the SECOND Coming of Yahshua to deliver us from the
> Man of Sin in the Great Tribulation.  We will have to have a Blessed
> Hope to make it through the Great Tribulation.
> 
> > Yahshua prays that we (apostles and ALL believers) are NOT taken out 
> > but that we are delivered through the tribulation....
> 
> >>Jesus was talking to the apostles ("none of them is lost, but the son of
> >>perdition," John 17:12). This was before Pentecost.
> 
> > John 17:15...
> > "I pray NOT that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but the
> > thou shouldest keep them from the evil."  (Yeshua praying)
> >
> > John 17:20...
> > Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall 
> > believe on me through their word.
> 
> He is talking about ALL believers... and I don't care when it was in 
> time... Yahshua does NOT put time bands on this scripture....
> It applies to us now...
> 
> >>Come on. Give me some real scriptures that back up your position.
> 
> I Corinthians 15:51-52
> 
> Listen, I tell you a MYSTERY: We will not all sleep, but we will be 
> changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET.  
> For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and 
> we will be changed.
> 
> I want to bring in the following scripture...
> 
> Revelation 1:10-11
> I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a great 
> voice,as of a trumpet. Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first 
> and the LAST:
> 
> The word LAST is very important.  Last is the very end... nothing 
> after. No matter what is said about different types of trumpets of 
> whatever argument you attempt to use. Last is LAST!  There are no 
> other trumpets after the LAST!
> If you define Last to be something else, God is not the first and the 
> LAST.
> This word is the same!  Last also refers to the end or the completion!
> There are seven trumpets and seven angels in Revelation.  The LAST 
> trumpet is also the LAST trumpet in Revelation.
> 
> Revelation 10:7
> But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin 
> to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to 
> his servants the prophets.
> 
> The key word here is MYSTERY.  The seventh angel is the last.  Seven 
> means the "plan of God" and it is the completion.  Mystery here is the 
> samemystery that is called out in I Corinthians 15:51.  This mystery is
> completed at the voice of the seventh angel.
> 
> Revelation 11:14-15
> The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
> And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, 
> saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord; 
> and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
> 
> Here we are again... the voice of the seventh angel.  This is the same 
> angel that sounds and the MYSTERY of God is finished in Rev 10:7.  
> If Last is NOT  Last, how would the Lord get across the concept of Last?  
> Seven is always symbolic the plan and/or completion by God.
> 
> Noah had to build an Ark to show his faith and God didn't take him
> out...
> Noah had to go through the flood.
> Daniel was saved in the Lion's den...
> Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were saved in the fire...
> 
> God DOES NOT TAKE people out of the calamity... he saves them in the
> tribulation.
> 
> 1 Thessalonians 5:9...
> 
> "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through 
> our Lord Jesus Christ".
> 
> This says NOTHING about Tribulation (testing)... we are appointed to 
> receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ!
> 
> The Day of the Lord... is one day at the end of the Tribulation.
> Amos 5:18 talks about it being a woe... Wouldn't it be a celebration day
> if we were getting rescued?  The Day of the Lord is destruction/WRATH.
> This is the Day of Christ... they are the same Day!
> 
> Wrath versus Judgement... God will ALWAYS judge His remnant as He did to
> Israel.
> 
> The Church has not been destined for wrath. However, the ONE day 
> (Day of the Lord) ("He comes as the Lion of Judah") is the day of wrath.  
> At the END of theTribulation we are gathered up with the Lord.
> 
> The word Tribulation MEANS testing as in one's Faith!  Testing causes
> repentance and purification of one's self.  How is the bride of Christ
> going to be "made ready" without Tribulation?  Do you believe that the 
> bride of Christ is ready to stand before the God of this Universe?
> 
> Can you gave me an example showing God removing someone from the
> trouble or calamity before it happened?
> 
> I can give you many examples of God saving His people or taking them to 
> be with Him because they were "OBEDIENT" and went through the calamity.
> The Tribulation will be a purification process to make His bride...
> "Without Spot or Wrinkle"
> 
> Can you show me how you get TWO raptures?  What scriptures do you use?
> 
> May the Lord Bless you,

My reply

> Where is the scripture that says... there are two Raptures....

There is no scripture that says, "there are two Raptures." You have to study harder than that to figure it out. I think the easiest way to see it is to look at Rev. 4:1 first. The "Come up hither" is the Pre-Trib Rapture. Immediately they are in Heaven, "and, behold, a throne was set in heaven" (Rev. 4:2).

We can be sure that "Come up hither" means the Rapture because when Moses and Elijah are resurrected and ascend "up to heaven" in Rev. 11:12, they are told the same thing, "Come up hither." They demonstrate the reality of it. The Rapture involves both resurrection and ascension.

Next, look in Rev. 7:14. "These are they which came out of great tribulation." In verse 9, we were told that they "stood before the throne, so they are in Heaven also.

Third, look what is between these two Raptures, Rev. 6. It begins with the Beast riding forth on a white horse as a prince of peace at the beginning of the Tribulation. It ends with "For the great day of his wrath is come." This is the end of the shortened Tribulation.

Therefore, the first Rapture takes place before the Tribulation begins, and the second Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12 and the breaking of the seventh seal in Rev. 8:1. This is just before the seven trumpet judgments begin.

> I see a gathering of of the saints at the Last trumpet...

When the last of the seven trumpet judgments sounds, Rev. 11:18 says, "thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great." This is the Judgment Seat of Christ. It takes place in Heaven, and all saints "small and great" are already assembled there.

The two trumpets that call the saints are understood from Numbers 10:2-4: "Make thee TWO TRUMPETS of silver...that thou mayest use them for the CALLING OF THE ASSEMBLY, and for the JOURNEYING OF THE CAMPS. And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door (symbol of a Rapture, Rev. 3:8) of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

The first trump of I Thess. 4:16 is not sounded by angels as the seven trumpet judgments are. This trump is "the trump of GOD." Christ is doing the calling, saying "Come up hither." This is the first Rapture. I think it is a select group, the Bride of Christ. It is taken out of the Body of Christ just as Adam's bride was taken out of his side.

The "LAST TRUMP" of this type, in I Cor. 15:52, calls "ALL" to heaven. This is the rest of the Body of Christ.

> I don't see the word Rapture and I don't see two...

The word for "caught up" in I Thess. 4:17 is "rapiemir" in my Latin Bible. That is where our English word Rapture comes from.

> and I think that something this
> important would have been clearly defined in the scriptures...

What we think and what God does may be two different things.

> How many "comings" do we have? I guess...1 + 2 = 3 or is it 4?
> Maybe the 2 raptures don't count!

> > I read 2nd Coming in my Bible!

Christ has two comings where he sets his feet on Earth. At the Raptures, he meets us in the air. However, Rev. 3:3 refers to a Rapture as when he "will come upon thee."

> This scripture is a command.... when we see the abomination of desolation > we are to STAND in the holy place... the holy place is not the temple... > the holy place is the holy place that we have in prayer in the spirit.

This has nothing to do with "the holy place that we have in prayer in the spirit." Tribulation saints are told that when they "see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which he in Judaea FLEE into the mountains" (Mt. 24:15,16). They are to get on their feet and RUN. "And to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle (a plane), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3 1/2 years), from the face of the serpent" (Rev. 12:14).

> The Great Tribulation is a 42 month period in which the Anti-Christ is
> given reign over the earth. There is tribulation that is seven years
> long... but the old testament prophets talk about the first 3 and 1/2
> years being peace and tranquility compared to the second half...
> The second half is the Great Tribulation.

> > > THEN the gathering from the fours winds will occur!

The last 3 1/2 years are the Great Tribulation. The Satan-possessed False Prophet will rule over both the world church and the world government during this time.

The "gathering from the fours winds" take place on the 2300th day of the Triulation. Mark 13:27 says that "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven (to gather those that went to Heaven in the first Rapture). They are gathered for the Judgment Seat of Christ.

> This seems to go AGAINST the scripture that I know...
> like... No one knows the day or hour... not even the Son
> We might the know the season... maybe even the month... but NOT the
> DAY or HOUR.
Rev. 3:3 says, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief (before Armageddon, Rev. 16,15,16; as the day of the Lord cometh, First Thess. 5:2), and thou shalt not know what HOUR I will come upon thee."

If you want to take a chance on being caught up in the second Rapture, that is ok, but as for me, I am watching, and he will not come on me as a thief, and I shall know what HOUR he will come upon me.

I Thess. 5:4 promises me, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness , that that day should overtake you as a thief."

> Revelation 1:10-11
> I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice,as
> of a trumpet. Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the LAST:
> > The word LAST is very important. Last is the very end... nothing after.
> No matter what is said about different types of trumpets of whatever argument
> you attempt to use. Last is LAST! There are no other trumpets after the LAST!
> If you define Last to be something else, God is not the first and the LAST.

All seven trumpet judgments sounded by ANGELS sound AFTER the "last trump" of God (I Thess 4:16) sounds to call the Body of Christ to Heaven.

Christ is the first (Lord of the Old Testament) and the last (Lord of the New Testament).

> Noah had to build an Ark to show his faith and God didn't take him
> out...Noah had to go through the flood.

Noah was taken up by the waters just as we will be taken up by the Holy Spirit of Christ. He went though no Tribulation. The others on Earth did.
> Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were saved in the fire...

They represent the Tribulation saints saved out of the fiery furnace when the pieces of the asteroid begin to fall on Earth (Rev. 6:13).

> "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through our
> Lord Jesus Christ".

> > This says NOTHING about Tribulation (testing)

It is the Day of God's Wrath.

> The Day of the Lord... is one day at the end of the Tribulation.

There are seven 1000-year days in "time." The seventh is the 1000-year Day of the Lord. The Day of God's Wrath is the first regular day of the millennial day.

> How is the bride of Christ
> going to be "made ready" without Tribulation?

We have tribulation right now, every one of us.
> Do you believe that the bride of
> Christ is ready to stand before the God of this Universe?
My main message is for the Bride to get ready, that the Rapture might be
only 6 months away.

> Can you gave me an example showing God removing someone from the
> trouble or calamity before it happened?

Enoch. Noah. Lot. Two-year old Jesus.

> Can you show me how you get TWO raptures? What scriptures do you use?

Here is something I wrote on this:

(omitted because I think it already on here some place.)

Incoming Email, Re: web (Marilyn Agee (11-20-97)

> I read your WEB page and I wanted to tell you that you have some interesting
> theorys! Have you ever taken into acount the book on the apostolic fathers.
> The epistle of Barnabas is interesting in the fact that he believed that
> JESUS would return at the end of 6000 years. What is your thoughts on this??

My reply

When I first started to study the Bible, I was afraid of being led astray by something someone said that might sound logical, but was not right. Therefore I read the Bible for myself before reading other's words about the Bible, or any of the apocryphal books, or any early writings. I say this and then realize it is almost true, but not quite. For some reason, in those early days, it took me a long time to get around to reading Nehemiah. I read other books of the Bible over and over before I finally read Nehemiah. I really don't know why I neglected it so long.

After that, I spent seven years reading as many books as I could from BIOLA's library that explained Scripture. I still could not get some questions answered, so laid my hands on my open Bible and said, "Lord! you'll have to show me." For quite a few more years, I studied straight from the scriptures with the help of the Lord and things like concordances, different Bible versions, Lexicons and Green's Interlinear translation.

Only after all this did I really get interested in reading the Aprocaphal books and other early writings. As I read, I realized quickly why they were not in the canon of Scripture. However, there are some nuggets of information that are revealing in one way or another.

> The epistle of Barnabas is interesting in the fact that he believed
> that JESUS would return at the end of 6000 years.

He was not alone in thinking this. As for this belief, if we assume that the 6000 years began when Adam left the Garden of Eden, when men began to be tried being mortal and knowing both good and evil, and that this return of Jesus is at the Rapture, I expect it will come true. See my article, "God's Circle Clocks" at
, and you will see why I think God planned three 2000-year ages of "time."

During the first 2000 years, God dealt with all mankind in the Age of the Gentiles. During the second 2000 years, he dealt mainly with the Israelites in the Age of the Jews. During the third 2000 years, he is dealing mainly with the church in the Age of the Church. The seventh 1000-year day is the millennial Day of the Lord. Therefore, I think the 6000th year is the year of the Pre-Trib Rapture.

However, God's Plan of the Ages is not as simple as this sounds. Some parts are simple. Other parts are not. It is not so easy to figure out that a grade-school student could figure it out.

The Day of the Lord does not begin at the Pre-Trib Rapture, as we might expect. Elijah must come first (Mal. 4:5). He comes at the first of the Tribulation and prophesies 1260 days. Here we get the first inkling that there can be a delay between the end of the sixth and the beginning of the seventh great day.

In Revelation, Jesus put a parenthetical portion between the sixth and seventh seals, between the sixth and seventh trumpets, and between the sixth and seventh plagues to demonstrate that there can be a "delay."

Rev. 10:6 (NIV) tells us that "There will be no more delay!" when the seventh angel sounds. At that point, the millennial seventh day does begin.

Just as God can set his clocks and let them run, he can also stop his clocks (as he did when Israel was out of fellowship). He can let some time go by and then restart a certain clock. Israel's clock will be restarted when the Tribulation begins. It has seven more years to run, as indicated in Daniel 9:27.

The 7000-year clock measures God's great 1000-year days. This is called "time." The 7-year clock measures God's years of the Tribulation. This is called "judgment." These seven years, plus a little grace period for Israel between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation, are inserted between the sixth and seventh 1000-year day. If Israel would turn to the Lord before that clock begins to tick, the Tribulation could be left out. It is "judgment."

Even this is a slight oversimplification, for the Tribulation is shortened or no flesh would be saved. You can see that figuring time is a very complicated subject. The rest of the 7-years past the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation overlap the Millenium. The Millennium begins on the Day of God's Wrath. That is that 2300th day.

In a nutshell, from Adam to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium is actually 7049 years, the way we count time. There are the 40 years Adam was in the Garden of Eden, the 7000 years of "time," the grace period given Israel to show fruit between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation, 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation, plus the Millennium. The details are found in my book, "Exit: 2007: The Secret of Secrets Revealed."

That book took me 23 years to write. I cannot give you enough details in this email to make it all entirely clear. All I can do is summarize a few things for you here.

  Pro and Con 38

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© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 11-23-97