Pro and Con 372

Uploaded 8-12-99

Incoming Email

...Its...the 21 year old kid who wrote you that long e-mail. I don't know how much time you have on your hands, hope I'm not bugging you, I just don't know anyone who's really into the Bible, and I have so many questions. There are so many things that I wanted to ask you...in response to your email, but I've been so busy, I havent had time to type them all up. For now, I just have a few questions. What other books should I have when studying the Bible? What version of the Bible should I be using? And what kind of Bible concordance? Does a Bible concordance give the Hebrew and Greek forms of the word or just its occurence in English throughout the OT and NT?  Also, i was looking over your account of the crucifixion in "The End of the Age" and how is it that you don't have Jesus celebrating the Passover?

Matt. 26:18 He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'"

This stuff *REALLY* confuses me...So many people have different days for the Last Supper, Crucifixion, and REssurection of Christ...the only thing you all seem to agree on is that he rose on the Feast of First Fruits...Did Jesus eat the Passover with his disciples or not?

Also, in order for Jesus to rise 3 days after the preparation for the passover (your theory), you have the Feast of Firstfruits occuring on the 16th of Nisan..but everywhere I've looked, this feast occurs on Nisan 17....which is it?

I hope you're doing well. I'm sure you are still trying to pinpoint the Rapture. I was wondering what is the new date that you are expecting it to occur? I have been so frustrated lately. I've been running into so many people that try to spiritualize the prophecies of Revelation and Daniel (they say the body is the Temple that the anti-christ will defile, and the antichrist is just anyone who doesnt beleive Christ came). That Kingdom Now stuff. they beleive that the prophecies were fulfilled (the kingdom of heaven is within you, it comes not with observation, there be some standing here that will not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom, etc.) It makes my blood boil. they have trouble with one verse, like the transfiguration on the mount, and they choose to ignore 30 others.

This is a message that was sent to me recently:
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America has a lot of weird theology...you've probably noticed, but it's a case in point. "Millenialists" (pre-, post-, whatever-) are a fairly new philosophy. I'll come back to them.

First back to Matt 16:27-28. Or better yet 16:21-28. Compare w/ Mark 8:31-9:1. Very clearly in both passages he prophesies his death and resurrection and says there are those who will not taste death before seeing his kingdom. Guess what? Traditional Christianity (as opposed to the odd lil modern millenialist philosophies) understands that His kingdom did come...at his resurrection, just like he was talking about when he made those statements. In Acts, when Stephen is martyred, you already see Christ sitting at the right hand of God. His kingdom came with power when he rose from the dead.

It definitely says he will come with angels to judge the world, but it also doesn't say *that* will happen in the lifetime of those listening. Now, here you get into the typical argument "but it has to be the same time frame b/c it doesn't say it isn't" v. "but it can't possibly be the same time frame b/c it doesn't say it is". I'm not expecting you to suddenly switch views.

But boy, the more I've learned about the historical view of the church, the more it makes a lot more sense than this earthly millenialist stuff. Revelation doesn't say Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years. It says certain blessed souls will reign *with* Christ for 1000 years, and it doesn't say it will be on earth either.

He said "My kingdom is not of this world." And you were on the right track. His kingdom came with power roughly 2000 years ago, and most of the people who heard him lived to see it. "It is finished."
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This stuff makes me so angry....I've been trying to find time to study the rapture, but I find myself having to find evidence to first convince people that there will even be a second coming!! What are the best arguements for the Rapture, besides the fact that we are "not appointed to wrath" , the "we shall all be changed" verse, and the fact that the Church isnt mentioned throughout most of Revelation?

My reply

I can learn something new each time I read any different version of the Bible. Just because the translators choose different words, something else will suddenly come clear. I stick to the KJV, Scofield notes, for my main study Bible, but every time I start to read another one all the way through, I get a different version.

I spent seven years reading about an 18" stack of books a week from BIOLA library's Seminary Collection. However, once I started to stick to the Bible and use Strong's Concordance, Thayer's and Gesenius' Lexicons, Green's Interlinear, and the LXX. I learned things no one else seemed to have dug out. Whether I needed the background of constant reading or not, I don't know. The Lord knew how to train me for what I was going to end up doing when I didn't know where I was headed.

When you read man's works about the Bible, they can be right or wrong. Therefore, I made sure that I had read the Bible through for myself before I read other books. I had this feeling that one might be led astray by things that sounded reasonable, but were wrong, if I didn't know what the Bible said. I have been judging things I read against the scriptures from the beginning. I study to see if these things are so, keep the good and throw out the bad.

For an example of how I study, read Pro and Con 369. I posted my study sheet. I write to myself. My dad taught me to outline to study. It was good teaching. I don't stick to it slavishly, but do try to organize verses under headings. I don't want to get bogged down with organizing the material instead of understanding it, so if something doesn't exactly fit a heading, I put it below. When I am finished, I print it out, sit down to reread and study it with a red pencil in hand. The most important points get underlined. Then I go back and read the red penciled parts, trying to see if any new understanding will turn up. If different subjects require a different color to be able to bring two verses together, I use other colors. Once you collect verses on a subject, put it in a ring binder for future reference. Index them by subject and file alphabetically, so you can find them later.

On Pro and Con 370, I posted Jackson Smith's studies on "that day." He works much like I do. Take a look. This is a good way to dig out more than just what is on the surface.

> Does a Bible concordance give the Hebrew and Greek forms of the word or
> just its occurence in English throughout the OT and NT?

It gives the Hebrew and Greek words. I have had three Concordances, gave Cruden's away, still have Young's and Strong's, but use Strong's far more. He put the Hebrew and Greek words in the back with a reference number. The definitions of words are far more comprehensive. Here is a sample:

In Strong's, under "caught," are 17 NT places where it is used. In five of these, the number is 726, in Acts 8:39; II Cor, 2:2,4; 1Thess. 4:17; Rev. 12:5. I turn to (Greek) 726 in the back. The word is "harpazo," which we call the Rapture. It is from a der. of 138, to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

(Greek) 138 is haireomai, Prob. akin to 142, to take for oneself, i.e., to prefer:--choose.

(Greek) 142 is airo, a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [com. 5375] to expiate sin:--away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

(Heb.) 5375 is nasa, or nacah. There are many meanings listed, but among them are: to lift, arise, raise (up), take (away, up).

Looking all these up help us understand more fully what the verse really says.

> how is it that you don't have Jesus celebrating the Passover?

On p. 86, I quoted the verses that said, "Now before the feast of the passover" and "it was the preparation of the passover." He died as the Passover lambs were being killed at the temple. The last supper was the evening before. It was on the same date as the Crucifixion but in the night portion that precedes the daylight portion in Jewish days. The last supper and Crucifixion were on the day before the Passover. He was in the grave on Passover.

It may be that the Essenes kept the Passover a day earlier than the Pharisees and Sadducees. Thus, Jesus could have had a Passover meal with the apostles on the Essene date and still died as the lambs were being killed in the temple. An article on this was on http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3682/passover.html
Hope it is still there.

> you have the Feast of Firstfruits occuring on the 16th of Nisan..but
> everywhere I've looked, this feast occurs on Nisan 17....which is it?

Nisan 16. Josephus was a Pharisee. He said, "In the month of...Nisan...on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries...was...the Passover...The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month...But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them...they offer the first-fruits of their barley" (Ant. of the Jews, III. X. 5.).

> the Rapture. I was wondering..what is the new date that you are
> expecting it to occur?

Next Pentecost. Sivan 7 will be Saturday, June 10. That is my best guess. Take a look at the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. Jesus only speaks in the third year. At that time, he says that he came LOOKING in the first two years. He neither comes nor speaks in the extra year. That makes the third year seem most likely. We need him to speak and say "Come up hither." I had a feeling that he was standing at the door watching us. We have to confess all our sins and withstand all testing. The "judge standeth before the door" (Jas. 5:9). He is probably choosing his Bride. We have to be "called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14). Be ready with your lamp burning brightly, i.e.,"walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8), "shine as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15). We need to be worthy of escaping (Lu. 21:36).

> running into so many people that try to spiritualize the prophecies of
> Revelation and Daniel.

So have I. Just don't listen to them. We are not at liberty to make the scriptures say any old thing we want them to say. God meant exactly what he said. It is all true, and it is our job to compare scripture with scripture and figure out what it means. It is not all as easy to see as the nose on our faces, because "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line...here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:13). The wise will understand, but the wicked will not (Dan. 12:10).

From the "weird theology" you received:

> there are those who will not taste death before seeing his kingdom.

Jesus was talking about the Transfiguration.

> "Millenialists" (pre-, post-, whatever-) are a fairly new philosophy.

Not so. In his just-under-1500-word sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem (c.374-627) said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

> His kingdom came with power when he rose from the dead.

If that were so, why do we have evil in this world? Why do we need jails? That is malarky. When his kingdom comes with power, Jesus will judge between the sheep and goats. The goats will be cast into the Lake for fire. Mt. 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand (the goats), Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." The world will be purged of evil people. We do not see that today.

> Revelation doesn't say Christ will reign on earth for 1000 years. It says
> certain blessed souls will reign *with* Christ for 1000 years, and it
> doesn't say it will be on earth either.

Jesus will return physically. His feet will touch the Mt. of Olives. The mountain will split (Zech. 14:4). That has NOT YET taken place. He will sit as judge at the Judgment of the Nations, remove dominion from Satan, and judge the sheep and goats. Armageddon will break out. It is Satan's last ditch stand. After it is over, Satan will be chained. Jesus will then set up the millennial government. After that, I think he will put David back on the throne on earth and return to Heaven. Eze. 34:24 says, "I the LORD (Christ, the LORD of hosts, Isa. 44:6) will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it." We will reign "epi," over the Earth. Our home is Heaven. If we need to travel back and forth to do our work, we will do so.

> His kingdom came with power roughly 2000 years ago, and most of
> the people who heard him lived to see it. "It is finished."

Far from it. Satan would love this teaching.

> What are the best arguements for the Rapture, besides the fact that we are "not
> appointed to wrath" , the "we shall all be changed" verse, and the fact that the
> Church isnt mentioned throughout most of Revelation?

First of all, these people are not very apt to listen to sound doctrine. Don't let it get to you. Stick to what you know is right, no matter what.

Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall (future tense) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man (at the Rapture)." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO.

Rev. 3:10,11 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM (ek, out of) the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall (after the Rapture) come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly (at the Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Crowns are given at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

The group that is part of the first Rapture is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, BEFORE the first seal is broken. Those of the second Rapture are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14, between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals.

Micah played the part of a Tribulation saint when in Mic. 7:1,2, he said, "WOE is me! for I am as (symbolic language) when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat (the second Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets in the fall): my soul desired the firstripe fruit (the first Rapture on Pentecost in the spring). The good man is perished (abad, escaped) out of the earth."

"The righteous perisheth (abad, escaped), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace" (Isa. 57:1,2).

Incoming Email

Thank you so much for all your help. I feel alot better now...If it wasn't for your web page and others like yours i would still be a sinner and would be damned. Thanks alot for caring about other people and their problems , God should be very pleased with you.

My reply

All the angels in heaven rejoice when one soul is saved. So do I. Bask in God's love. You are a new creature.

Incoming Email

I was reading the Song of Songs the other day. My understanding is that this book was entirely written by Solomon. I believe it starts by stating that this is the song of Solomon. Well, that got me thinking that if it was Solomon's song, wouldn't he be included in the great event that he is describing (the beautiful portions of this book appear to focus on the bride of Christ)?. However, I guess I always assumed that Solomon, and great God fearing people of old time, would have been raised at the time of Christ's resurrection.

With this in mind, I reread chapter 2 and 3. It seems as though the verse - My beloved spake and said unto me ....- is Christ talking to Solomon. If Solomon was raised at the time of Christ's resurrection, which occurred in the early spring, the rest of chapter 2 follows along with this possibility. In the first half of chapter 3, it may be that Solomon goes on to describe another group included in the bride, but no time frame is given as to when they will be raised. This may also be differentiated in separate categories of the bride with the references to queens, concubines, and virgins (Songs 6:8). I was hoping you could let me know what you think. :-) In his love

My reply

Some think that since Solomon was led by his many wives into allowing worship of false deities that he therefore would not have been raised yet. The Lord is the judge. He knows the heart. Be that as it may, He is a type of Christ in that he is the son of David.

Whoever put the pen to "paper," it is obviously the Lord's inspiration. In 6:13, we see how to take the Shulamite, "As it were the company of TWO ARMIES." These seem to be the two Raptures. At the first, some are not ready and are left behind. At the second, no believer is left behind.

The story is very symbolic and clothed with eastern descriptive phrases, but in it we find a description of Christ and his Bride. We find that "his locks are bushy, and black as a raven" (5:11), very Jewish. His "eyes are as the eyes of doves" (5:12), symbol of the Spirit of God.

The bride is "thou fairest among women" (6:1). In 8:10, she says, "I am a wall." The foundations of New Jerusalem's wall have on them the names of the apostles (Rev. 21:14). The gates have on them the names of the twelve tribes. She represents two armies, two Raptures. She is "like an heap of wheat" (7:2) and "there is no spot in thee" (4:7).

The Bride says, "I AM the rose of Sharon, AND the lily of the valleys." I thought this referred to Christ until I found out that it is in the feminine gender.

The Bride of Christ may be the church saints that are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture plus the 144,000 Israelites caught up in the second Rapture. The Lord knows for sure. All those of the first Rapture sing the new song (Rev. 5:9). Of the second Rapture, "no man could learn that song" but the 144,000 (Rev. 14:3). Let's not take any chances. Let's be ready the first time.

In chapter 2, verses 8-13 are feminine. Verse 14 is masculine. Christ is the one that says, "O my dove (i.e., filled with the Holy Spirit), that art in the clefts of the rock (i.e., in Christ), in the secret...of the stairs (like Jacob's ladder, reaching from Earth to Heaven), let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely."

Like the Shulamite, we long to hear the voice of our beloved Christ, the greater Son of David.

His reply

Thank you for your reply. I have only been studying the Bible for a couple of years, so having you as a resource/teacher is wonderful. You have definitely enhanced my learning. Thank you again. In his love

Incoming Email

Reference P@C 360. A person wrote:
"If he was what was to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, (through forgiveness), if He was to be "cut off" AFTER threescore and two weeks, but not for Himself, if He was what this prophecy was concerning (and He obviously was),then in which week of the 70 did He die?

Pre-tribbers all concede that He did not die within any of the first 69 weeks. (AFTER THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS) Then which?  Which, if not the seventieth???  Look at verse 27, but pray first, and loose all your pre-concieved ideas and assumptions about treaties or signitures, which are not spoken of anyway, and THINK."

The person who needs to "think" is the above writer. "Threescore and two weeks" is 62 weeks, not 69 weeks. The Messiah was, in deed, cut off at a point in time after 62 weeks.

As to the week in which He was cut off, the great parenthesis is the answer.

My best to you and Ed. Agape

My reply

I agree that he needs to think. He said,

> in which week of the 70 did He die?

That is a trick question. Jesus didn't die in any of them. He died after the 7 weeks plus the 62 weeks of years, i.e., after 483 years. "And after threescore and two weeks (i.e., after the 7 and then after the 62) shall Messiah be cut off (karath, killed)." At that refusal of Israel to accept their Messiah, God's clock stopped ticking for Israel. He turned to bringing in the Gentiles ten days after his Ascension. He is bringing in the Gentiles during "the great parenthesis." Paul said, "I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25).

The Messiah was killed, resurrected and ascended up to Heaven within a 43-day period of time. He was not "the prince that shall come" afterward, after the Messiah was cut off, whose people will "destroy the city and the sanctuary" in 70 AD. Jesus was not Roman, and the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Anyone with an analytical mind should be able to figure that out.

The 70th week has not yet started. It is synonomous with the Tribulation, which is the 7th cycle of discipline for Israel. In Lev. 26:27,28, the Lord said, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

After the Gentile Bride has been caught up to Heaven, the Lord will again deal with Israel. Her clock will start ticking off the 70th week of Daniel.

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can swallow the idea that all the prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD. The historians sure didn't record all those things happening. The Preterist viewpoint flies in the face of the evidence.

Another viewpoint that I can't see is that the millennial Day of the Lord begins with the beginning of the Tribulation. Yet, in my mail the same day were two Newsletters that teach it.

Greg Alston said, "And when does this seven year period take place relative to the 1,000-year Day of the Lord? Inside of it - it occupies the first seven of the 1,000 years. This is established in that the great Tribulation is a time of judgment and wrath (Matthew 24:21, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-11), as is the Day of the Lord (Zephaniah 1). It (the Tribulation Week) therefore must be part of the Day of the Lord."

Pastor Riley said, "The Tribulation, Daniel's 70th Week, and "the day of the Lord" are all the same period of time...2 Peter 3:10 plainly states that when the "day of the Lord" begins "the heavens" will "pass away with a great noise....Daniel's 70th Week will begin when some heavenly body (comet; asteroid; meteor; etc.) comes flying right past our earth, making a terrible noise equal to perhaps a thousand sonic booms as it flys through our atmosphere. Did this happen at the signing of the Wye Memorandums last year? Of couse not! Then Daniel's 70th Week hasn't started yet."

Mal. 4:5,6 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their father, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse" (the asteroid, Zech. 5:3). The curse comes after Elijah's ministry during the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. The curse impacts Earth on the first day of the Millennium. That is the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation. I can't see any possible way that they can start together.

God's wrath is the first day of the Millennium. Mt. 24:21 is the middle of the Tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 is the first day of the Millennium. 2 Pet. 3:10 is the first day of the Millennium.

The TRIBULATION starts with the breaking of the FIRST SEAL in Rev. 6. We do not read of an asteroid whizzing by at that time. This is when the Beast comes on the scene riding a white horse, parading as a prince of peace.

The millennial DAY OF THE LORD begins after the SIXTH SEAL is broken in Rev. 6:12. Verse 17 says, "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?" On the first day of the Millennium, the great day of his wrath, the seven trumpets sound. At the second trumpet blast, "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (Rev. 8:8). At the third trumpet blast, "there fell a great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10). These things DO take place at the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord, but they do NOT take place at the beginning of the Tribulation in Rev. 6:1.2. I don't understand why that is so hard to see. Do you?

We are fighting to keep from taking the bug that got Dave down. We are taking Vit. C and Echinacea. So far, so good. Hope you are ok.

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