Pro and Con 388

Uploaded 9-15-99

Incoming Email

Thank you for the information on Brandi. I am praising the Lord for his loving kindness and protection for her....

The Day of Atonement as commemoration of Pentecost, the way I understand it, according to Jewish tradition, is as follows (some of this information comes from J. R. Church's May article on Pentecost and Rosh Hashanah,as I mentioned in a previous e-mail-your Pro and Con 380):

According to one view, the cloud on Mt. Sinai represents the wedding canopy (a huppah), and Shavuot represents the marriage between God (the groom) and Israel(the bride).  Passoveer represents God's courtship of Israel, and Shavuot celebrates the actual marriage. According to this view, Moses smashes the tablets of the Ten Commandments because they are God's marriage contract(ketubah) to Israel, and Moses, as messenger, chooses to smash them rather than deliver them to Israel and thereby complete the marriage of Israel to God. To complete the marriage would have ment that the Israelites, who were worshipping the golden calf, wrre in fact being unfaithful in their marriage.

Because of their unfaithfulness to Jehovah, Israel  could not become a June bride(on Pentecost). Moses ground the golden calf to powder. He mixed it with water and made the people drink.

On the first day of Elul (August l2th, the after the solar eclipse,  this year) Moses went back up the mountain to stay for another 40 days. When he returned on the TENTH OF TISHRI (The Day of Atonement), he presented the second set of tablets to Israel. Those tablets(ten commandments) represented a marriage contract (ketubah). Israel had to wait until September.

Each year, from the first day of Elul until the TENTH OF TISHRI, a series of trumpet blowing commemorate the Pentecost trumpet. That heavenly trumpet at the first Pentecost should have marked Israel's happy marriage to Jehovah. For thousands of years now, on every Rosh Hashanah, Israel blows a series of sad and sorrowful notes on their shofar trumpets. Instead of becoming a June bride, Israel became a September bride. (And this year, Rosh Hashanah falls on Saturday, September llth, a sabbath day, so the shofar will not be blown, even though the trumpet blowing is the centerpiece of the New Year celebration.) The sole exception to this sabbath day rule is Yom Kippur, The Day of Atonement.

Could  our heavenly trumpet blow for the Church (the bride of Christ) on this next Day of Atonement, September 20th?

And, I read Ezekiel 45:l8 and  40:l, very closely. I still do not see that the year is stated to begin in Nisan. I am trying to stay open minded for the truth. I still think a close observation makes "in the beginning of the year", Tishri In reading both sections, it looks more like Tishri to me. I will study further.

In the days of Noah, Tishri was the lst month. Tishri is grape harvest time, and, by the way, this year is record harvest for vineyards both here and abroad....I do think that Song of Soloman can still fit this time frame, since the last part may deal with Israel only. I will have to go back, but I think that from the time the groom puts his hand in the key hole in the door (rapture), it is just Israel and the believers that believe because of the rapture, that are dealt with after that. Perhaps?

I still need to do much more study, but am starting to believe that when Jesus answered his disciples..."you will know that SUMMER is nigh"...that he was naming the season. For instance, if my child asked, on a long trip, "When will be at grandma's house?" and I answered, "You will know that night is near, when the sun goes down". Night is when we would be there. In the same context,  when we see all the signs(and we do), we will know that SUMMER is near. The Day of Atonement is in summer, just 3 DAYS before autumn begins.

However, I am wondering if Jeremiah 8:20 actually applies to the beginning of the tribulation, when Israel realizes what they have done, because of the rapture. "The HARVEST is past, the SUMMER is ended, and we are not saved." Could that apply to the grape harvest? The rapture? I think so. And that is September. And, yes, I know that it could mean Tishri l and the 2nd Advent. But, could it apply to both?

And, Amos 8:l and 2..."Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of SUMMER FRUIT. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of  SUMMER FRUIT. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more."

Could this be when the tribulation starts? When time starts again for Israel?...Thank you for reading and considering.

My reply

Praise the Lord. Brandi is doing great, with no aftereffects except she tires easily, her hand is sore from the tubes in it, and the whole leg that had the tubes in it tingles and goes numb if she walks too much. However, it stops after she sits down a minute or so. She said that when she was so sick, she didn't know whether she was going to die or have to have surgery or what. It is really scary to have 105 and 106 temperature and hear the doctor keep saying he doesn't know what is wrong with you.

Here is what is strange and seems like the Lord intervened. She just suddenly got well. She said, "As soon as I got well, I got up." She went to school today with a doctor's excuse to be excused from gym this week. We are saying, "Thank you for this food and Brandi's healing." He deserves the credit. When she went to the mall with us, she had forgotten her Gatorade, so ordered milk. It's been a long time since she did that. She is thinking she should eat nutritious food--and NO Cokes. She has a smart brain in that head of hers. I don't think she had ever swallowed many pills before, had chewable vitamins and C but she is now. She understands how important it is for her to build up her resistance.

> Instead of becoming a June bride, Israel became a September bride.

As I see it, if the Rapture takes place next June, the Marriage of the Lamb is still sceduled for the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium, Sept. 13, 2007. I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture happens that day. Those Israelites that are part of the Bride of Christ would be married that day. That is the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Day of God's Wrath. It also is the day that all Israel is born in a day (Isa. 66:8). Those that missed the Pre-Wrath Rapture and are converted later on that day will live on into the Millennium. It looks like they will repent and be accepted on the following Day of Atonement. It seems that in those days, we will be the heavenly Bride (Rev. 21:9,10) and Israel the earthly Bride.

Hos. 2:16,19,23 says, "And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi (my husband); and shalt call me no more Baali (my lord)....And I will betroth thee unto me for ever...And I will sow her unto me IN THE EARTH; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God." Israel was promised the Earth--forever.

As a nation, they failed to attain what was offered at Sinai on Pentecost, but will attain it on the first Day of Atonement in the Millennium. I think we will be espoused in June, but married in Heaven on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). I think Israel could be the earthly Yom Kippur bride on the following Tishri 10.

It makes me wonder if the following Sacred Year will be declared a Jubilee Year on Yom Kippur in 5768. It would make sense for I think that the following Nisan 1 will be the day Christ returns. Then it would be the first day of the Regnal Year, the Sacred Year and the Jubilee Year. It sounds like the kind of planning the Lord would do.

> Could  our heavenly trumpet blow for the Church (the bride of
> Christ) on this next Day of Atonement, September 20th?

It could, and I hope it does, but I really think it will be next Pentecost.

> I read Ezekiel 45:l8 and  40:l, very closely. I still do not see that the year is
> stated to begin in Nisan. I am trying to stay open minded for the truth....it looks
> more like Tishri to me.

Here is something to mull over. Eze. 45:18 mentions "the first month, in the first day of the month," and verse 21 says, "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover." That is Nisan 14, and it is the first month.

> In the days of Noah, Tishri was the lst month.

Right, the Sacred Year started at the Exodus.

> Tishri is grape harvest time

Elul and Tishri are the vintage. The time of the firstripe grapes is in June.

> I think that from the time the groom puts his hand in the key hole in the door
> (rapture), it is just Israel and the believers that believe because of the rapture,
> that are dealt with after that.

I think Song 2:10-14 is the Pre-Trib Rapture. The above is Song of Sol. 5:4, talking of those left behind. The Bride does appear after that, though. This is literally the dance of two armies (Song 6:13), so it seems to weave around. In some places, both Raptures are as if twins in the Body of Christ (6:6; 7:3). My sister seems to refer to Israel.

> am starting to believe that when Jesus answered his disciples ..."you will
> know that SUMMER is nigh"... that he was naming the season.

I think so too.

> The Day of Atonement is in summer, just 3 DAYS before autumn begins.

Not always. In 2000, it will be Oct. 9.

> I am wondering if Jeremiah 8:20 actually applies to the beginning of the tribulation,
> when Israel realizes what they have done, because of the rapture. "The HARVEST is
> past, the SUMMER is ended, and we are not saved." Could that apply to the grape
> harvest? The rapture? I think so.  And that is September.

I think Jer. 8:20 is after the second Rapture, on Tishri 1, 5768. this message in the temple gate starts in chapter 7 and continues in chapters 9 and 10. Jer. 9:15 says, "I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink." That ties in with Rev. 8:11.

> Amos 8:l and 2...Amos, what seest thou?  And I said, A basket of SUMMER FRUIT. Then
> said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass
> by them any more." Could this be when the tribulation starts?

It is when the shortened Tribulation ends. This passage is talking about the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768. Verse 2 says, "THE END is come." Verse 3 says, "the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day."

Incoming Email

From: South Africa. I found your site and found it very encouraging. I am also a little confused I wonder if you could clarify a few things for me.

Firstly, the Rapture surprisingly to me was never discussed in my Sunday school classes when I was a child, I was taught that Jesus would come again to judge the living and the dead and always understood that to be the end of the world.  why is it that so little time is spent in churches on the things that really matter, for instance physical death as we know it - to this day a church minister hardly touches on the subject and when I have questioned them, they don't seem to even know what to say except that you must pray for the dearly departed souls and the people mourning their loss - the many mansions that Jesus went to prepare for us is also touched on very briefly. I believe in the journey of the soul through different mansions even after death, and that the ultimate must be the seventh heaven or mansion, almost a case of another chance of self improvement or purification. i.e.. the lowest being the first plain.

Another point of confusion is this: in the gospel of Luke it says "Be on your gaurd, for it will come on all people everywhere on earth. Be alert and pray always that you will have the strength to go safely through all those things that will happen and to stand before the son of man. There is no mention of ESCAPING all these things. 2 Thessalonians 1; 2 says Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to be with him: The Day will not come until the final rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears. Again in Matthew 29: Soon after the troubles of those days (troubles of the evil one) the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven and the powers in space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the sun of man will appear in the sky etc...The great trumpet will sound and He will send his angels  to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather  his chosen people from one end of the earth to the other. My question is where does it say in the scriptures that there will be a rapture, followed by a second coming, in my mind this is all one event, to me the second event is when we will live on earth (new heaven and new earth) with Jesus as our leader and the people who have unwisely chosen not to follow Jesus are removed from earth and will suffer eternal punishment.

I would appreciate it if you could give me some feedback....

My reply

> you must pray for the dearly departed souls

I doubt that it would do any good. They earned what they will get before their death. After death, the judgment. Heb. 9:27: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Also see II Cor. 5:8-10 below.

> I believe in the journey of the soul through different mansions even
> after death, and that the ultimate must be the seventh heaven or mansion

Consider these verses. Jn. 14:2: "In my Father's house are many mansions (Strong's 3438: mone, residence, dwelling place, abode).

II Cor. 5:8-10: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD (instantaneous). Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

II Cor. 12:2-7: "I knew a man (Paul himself) in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN (i.e., Mars, Jupiter, Saturn). And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

I Thess. 5:9,10: "Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep (i.e., die), we should live together with him."

> the Rapture surprisingly to me was never discussed in my
> Sunday school classes when I was a child

It is not taught in some churches at all. That is sad, because it is our blessed hope. Titus 2:12,13 says: "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

> Another point of confusion is this: in the gospel of Luke it says "Be on your gaurd, for
> it will come on all people everywhere on earth. Be alert and pray always that you will
> have the strength to go safely through all those things that will happen and to stand
> before the son of man. There is no mention of ESCAPING all these things.

In the original, there is. Here is the KJV translation: Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."

> 2 Thessalonians 1;2 says Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ > and our being gathered together to be with him: The Day will not come > until the final rebellion takes place and the Wicked One appears.

We are not to watch for the Wicked One. We are to watch for Christ. See Titus 2:12,13 above. 2 Thess. 2:1-3 (KJV) says, "NOW we beseech you, brethren (believers), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the Rapture), That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (lit., Day of the Lord, i.e., the Millennium) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departing; separating, leaving as in apostacion, divorcement; i.e., the Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition."

> Again in Matthew 29: Soon after the troubles of those days (troubles of the evil one)
> the sun will grow dark, the moon will no longer shine, the stars will fall from heaven
> and the powers in space will be driven from their courses. Then the sign of the sun of
> man will appear in the sky etc.............The great trumpet will sound and He will
> send his angels  to the four corners of the earth, and they will gather  his chosen
> people from one end of the earth to the other.

There are two Raptures, one before the first seal is broken, the other between the sixth and seventh seals are broken. The Pre-Trib Rapture saints are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. The Pre-Wrath Rapture saints (Tribulation saints) are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14 before the seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8.

The passage in Matthew 24 (not 29) is describing the day of Rapture 2. The sun, moon and stars being darkened is after the sixth seal is broken when the Day of God's Wrath comes. See Rev. 6:12-17. The Tribulation saints are caught up before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth at noon (Zech. 2:4,5).

> where does it say in the scriptures that there will be a rapture,
> followed by a second coming, in my mind this is all one event

It is easy to see. Jesus Christ comes in the AIR at the Rapture. He comes to the EARTH at the Second Advent. At the Rapture, he comes FOR his saints. At the Second Advent, he comes WITH his saints. At the upcoming Rapture, he comes before the Tribulation. At the Second Advent, he comes 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath (Ezek. 39:12). These two events are separated by about seven years. In I Thess. 4:17, we "shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR." At the Rapture, Christ does not put his feet on the Earth. At the Second Advent, "his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14:4).

> to me the second event is when we will live on earth

I think we will return with Christ, help in setting up the Millennial Government, and then return with him to our heavenly home, New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12). It will descend "out of heaven" (Rev. 21:10) and orbit the Earth. Like the Moon, "the nations of them which are saved shall WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT, and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it" (Rev. 21:24). We are to be made "kings and priests: and we shall reign on (lit., over) the Earth" (Rev. 5:10). It will be easy for us to travel back and forth to work during the Millennium. The kings of the Earth that are "written in the Lamb's book of life" (v. 27) will be able to travel back and forth between New Jerusalem and the Earth.

They "shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them" (Jer. 30:9). "I the LORD (YJVH of hosts, the redeemer, Christ, Isa. 44:6) will be their God, and my servant David a prince AMONG them" (Eze. 34:24).

Isa. 9:6 says, "unto us a child (Jesus, Yahshua, meaning Yahweh is Saviour) is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Incoming Email

I found some more stuff you might be interested. This site  http://home.cwnet.com/crm/ has alot of the same views that you have. Especially about knowing the day and the hour. This guy has probably read your books since he uses the same arguements. He also uses typology in the same ways. This is one of the most exciting things to me. The way that people with a deeper understanding of the Bible dig underneath the surface, and find possible predictions through typology. Obviously the gospels are full of typological prophecies (i.e., God's son being called out of Egypt, which also referred to Israel) and i've seen lots of apologists use typology correctly as an explanation for these messianic prophecies but the problem is....they claim that typology has no predictive value. I think people like you have shown that it does but is strictly reserved for the wise.

  I think that some of the rabbis were wise enough to recognize double references in certain prophecies, as plenty of them interpreted Isaiah 53 to refer to the Messiah, although it can also be applied to Israel, and obviously was using verses from other places in the Bible that referred strictly to Israel (i.e., Zeph. 3:12-20, Psalm 44:22). Both interpretations make sense....

My reply

A lot of what Bob Schlenker says is correct, and he is trying hard to understand. I commend him for that. I have over a dozen of his Open Scroll booklets he was nice enough to send me. However, on some things, our views are not similar, but we agree to disagree agreably. He thinks the Rapture is Nisan 21 in the second year of the Tribulation. I think the Rapture is on Pentecost before the Tribulation begins. He doesn't think the dead in Christ are with the Lord in Heaven now. I think that Jesus took all the OT saints to Heaven on Resurrection Day (Psa. 68:18; Eph. 4:8-10). Early in the morning on that day, Jesus told Mary Magdalene, Touch me not: I am not yet ascended to my Father: but to to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father" (Jn. 20:17). That same day, at evening, he could be touched (Lu. 24:39). I think that as each saint since that time died, he/she went directly to be with the Lord. II Cor. 5:8 says, "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." This is from Paul, who had been caught up to the third heaven himself (II Cor. 12:1-7). He KNEW what he was saying.

As with what I say, or anyone says, compare what he says with Scripture, Pray about it, and then make up your own mind.

I found an interesting quote in his Sign to the Magi that brought to mind something concerning the Tower of Babel that I had figured out before, but had not thought of for some time. First, here is the quote. The emphasis is mine. An archeologist, Lt. General Chesney, who researched the ruins of Babylon, said, "About five miles southwest of Hillah, the most remarkable of all the ruins, the Birs Nimroud of the Arabs, rises to a height of 153 feet above the plain from a base covering a square of 400 feet, or almost four acres. It was constructed of kiln-dried bricks in SEVEN STAGES TO CORRESPOND WITH THE PLANETS to which they were dedicated: THE LOWERMOST BLACK, THE COLOUR OF SATURN,; the next orange, for Jupiter; the third red, for Mars; and so on. These stages were surmounted by a lofty tower, on the summit of which we are told, were the signs of the Zodiac and other astronomical figures; thus having (as it should have been translated) a representation of the heavens, instead of 'a top which reached unto heaven.'"

Do you remember that according to Josephus, a Pharisee priest, the golden candlestick stood for the Sun and planets? After explaining that the Holy of Holies represented "a Heaven peculiar to God," he said the candlestick "spread itself into as many branches as there are planets, including the sun among them" (Ant. III. VII. 4,7). The western light on the candlestick was always to be kept lit. Therefore, I think it was the one that represented the Sun. The other lamps were lit at night, just as the planets shine with reflected sunlight in our dark sky. The lamp that was on the east would represent Saturn. This jibes with Mt. 24:27: "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

We are to worship the Lord, not Saturn, where I think his throne is, in "the third heaven" (II Cor. 12:2), (1) Mars, (2) Jupiter, (3) Saturn. However, at the Tower of Babel, Satan set up his counterfeit religion to lead people astray. They worshipped the sun god. Look how the stepped tower was built. The lowest level represented Saturn, and the top represented the Sun. Satan made sure the lowest level was Saturn and black. He is sneaky.

> Isa. 53 to refer to the Messiah, although it can also be applied to Israel

It doesn't apply too well to Israel, although the Jews say it does. Verse 3 says, "He is despised and rejected of men: A MAN (one man) of sorrows. Verse 5 says, "HE (not they) was (not were) wounded for our transgressions, HE was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon HIM; and with HIS stripes we are healed."...

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